Allow Biolabs on every planet *except* Gleba

[Hurkyl]

Enforcing the "challenge" of shipping spoil-able packs gives up a lot for little gain. And you could still keep this challenge if you made a research after biolabs that allowed you to build them anywhere, so you'd still need to ship them initially.

The "challenge" isn't about whether you are capable of doing it, it's about adding latency as another dimension to the logistics problem.

I strongly dislike any suggestion to modify the game to erase latency as a concern, whether literally or effectively. Heck, its lack is something I considered to be a glaring flaw of the vanilla game.

I'm curious as to what you think I was referring to when I used the word "challenge". I'm also curious as to why you think this would be "erased" if you had the option to build biolabs on every planet. Please keep this in mind if you choose to answer:

And you could still keep this challenge if you made a research after biolabs that allowed you to build them anywhere, so you'd still need to ship them initially.

The "challenge" you seem to refer to is to demonstrate the mere ability to deliver science packs to Biolabs on Nauvis with enough spoil time remaining to be useable in research, with interplanetary transport being the prime obstacle to be overcome.

I assert, however, the interesting gameplay is that our transport lines now are not just about designing for a throughput capability, but you now also have reason to incorporate latency concerns, so as to optimize for better freshness. And again interplanetary transport being the most significant part.

Either way, you appear to suggest allowing Biolabs on Gleba for the specific purpose of effectively removing this aspect of gameplay shortly after having briefly demonstrated the ability to move a few packs. Thus, "erase". And with apparent scare quotes around the word "challenge" to denigrate it as something of no value so that it would be a good thing to eliminate.

[quineotio]

The "challenge" you seem to refer to is to demonstrate the mere ability to deliver science packs to Biolabs on Nauvis with enough spoil time remaining to be useable in research, with interplanetary transport being the prime obstacle to be overcome.

I assert, however, the interesting gameplay is that our transport lines now are not just about designing for a throughput capability, but you now also have reason to incorporate latency concerns, so as to optimize for better freshness. And again interplanetary transport being the most significant part.

Either way, you appear to suggest allowing Biolabs on Gleba for the specific purpose of effectively removing this aspect of gameplay shortly after having briefly demonstrated the ability to move a few packs. Thus, "erase". And with apparent scare quotes around the word "challenge" to denigrate it as something of no value so that it would be a good thing to eliminate.

So you think that the challenge (or if you want to reword it - "latency concerns") of delivering ag science to Nauvis is so important that giving the player the choice to build biolabs off of Nauvis should be disallowed entirely, even later into the game, because having the choice to build biolabs on Gleba would mean that you would do that, even though you don't find it fun?

Interesting, because other people in the thread have suggested that everyone would build the labs on Vulcanus.

Personally I would like the choice so that I don't have to do exactly the same thing every playthrough, because I've already solved the "latency concerns" challenge and I'd like to try something else.

[mmmPI]

Interesting, because other people in the thread have suggested that everyone would build the labs on Vulcanus.

That's because the title of the thread explicitly says "except Gleba" , that would make no sense to suggest making the labs on Gleba i believe.

And it's pretty clear from the discussion that the reason to avoid allowing them on Gleba is to keep the logistical concern of spoilable item.

[Hurkyl]

The "challenge" you seem to refer to is to demonstrate the mere ability to deliver science packs to Biolabs on Nauvis with enough spoil time remaining to be useable in research, with interplanetary transport being the prime obstacle to be overcome.

I assert, however, the interesting gameplay is that our transport lines now are not just about designing for a throughput capability, but you now also have reason to incorporate latency concerns, so as to optimize for better freshness. And again interplanetary transport being the most significant part.

Either way, you appear to suggest allowing Biolabs on Gleba for the specific purpose of effectively removing this aspect of gameplay shortly after having briefly demonstrated the ability to move a few packs. Thus, "erase". And with apparent scare quotes around the word "challenge" to denigrate it as something of no value so that it would be a good thing to eliminate.

So you think that the challenge (or if you want to reword it - "latency concerns") of delivering ag science to Nauvis is so important that giving the player the choice to build biolabs off of Nauvis should be disallowed entirely, even later into the game, because having the choice to build biolabs on Gleba would mean that you would do that, even though you don't find it fun?

Interesting, because other people in the thread have suggested that everyone would build the labs on Vulcanus.

Personally I would like the choice so that I don't have to do exactly the same thing every playthrough, because I've already solved the "latency concerns" challenge and I'd like to try something else.

No. My objection was specifically about putting Biolabs on Gleba. I offered no opinion about Biolabs on the other three planets.

While I am slightly against the idea since I have a positive view of the different planets having their distinctions and think such a change would water things down, it's nowhere near the point where I would outright object to such a change. Although, I do suspect that opinion would strengthen if I thought about it more.

I can't say where I would build my Biolabs if they could be anywhere, but if I did think the best choice was Gleba, then outside of specific sorts of challenge runs (e.g. I plan in the future to do a playthrough for each planet, as well as space, where I do most of my factory building there), I definitely would not enjoy putting them elsewhere just to have another problem to solve.

[quineotio]

I definitely would not enjoy putting them elsewhere just to have another problem to solve.

So because you think that you wouldn't enjoy putting biolabs in a place other than Nauvis, you think the game would be better if it wasn't an option, even if other people would like that option?

Your enjoyment of the game would be decreased because of an option that you could of your own free will decide not to choose?

[Shulmeister]

I definitely would not enjoy putting them elsewhere just to have another problem to solve.

So because you think that you wouldn't enjoy putting biolabs in a place other than Nauvis, you think the game would be better if it wasn't an option, even if other people would like that option?

Your enjoyment of the game would be decreased because of an option that you could of your own free will decide not to choose?

What's wrong with using the mod if you want to remove part of what constitute an enjoyable objective of the game for other players ? There are mods to add god modules, teleportation, or infinity chests to the game and i don't think it should be part of the base game, but as a mod for players that want that option it's fine

[quineotio]

What's wrong with using the mod if you want to remove part of what constitute an enjoyable objective of the game for other players ?

What enjoyable objective do you think I'm suggesting be removed?

[Shulmeister]

What's wrong with using the mod if you want to remove part of what constitute an enjoyable objective of the game for other players ?

What enjoyable objective do you think I'm suggesting be removed?

By suggesting biolabs could be placed on Gleba you're suggesting to remove what was described as "latency concern" in the supply chain.

[Tertius]

Biolabs on all planets except Gleba seems super arbitrary. The sole purpose of banning them from Gleba would be for game balancing reasons, but not because it is required for a realistic manufacturing/logistics simulation. It's not believable.

When I look at what a biolab actually is, I see an ordinary lab merged with a biter spawner made from biter eggs. Modified biter eggs with U-235, probably hatched, then captured by a capture bot rocket as spawner. This is a living thing.

Complex living things cannot survive on Vulcanus because of pressure, gravity and heat.
Nauvis is the ideal habitat, because it's the native environment of the biters.
Gleba would also be an excellent habitat, since it already contains Oxygen atmosphere, fauna and flora. However currently biolabs don't work here, probably it's some foreign bacteria that would infect biolabs.
Fulgora could support biolabs, since there once was life on that planet and it seems some atmosphere still remains. Currently biolabs don't work here, and I assume it's their delicate research equipment inside that cannot stand the magnetism.
Aquilo is too cold and doesn't have an Oxygen atmosphere, so it cannot support biolabs.
Space also doesn't support biolabs because of lack of atmosphere.

You might argue biochambers are allowed everywhere, however if you look at them it's a closed and shielded mechanism and the thing inside doing all the work is shielded against the outside, so it's reasonable the machine can even work in a vacuum.

A restricting game mechanic must be believable, but allowing biolabs on every planet except Gleba just isn't believable.

You want to allow it where it isn't believable a biolab could survive and forbid it where it isn't believable a biolab would die.

[quineotio]

By suggesting biolabs could be placed on Gleba you're suggesting to remove what was described as "latency concern" in the supply chain.

If you choose to build the labs on Gleba.

[Hurkyl]

For what it's worth, from what I've seen from the Steam forum, wanting to move labs to Gleba seems to be a pretty common trope.

Back before release a lot of people expected that to be the obvious solution to the freshness of agricultural science packs. And to this day we still periodically get people on their first Space Age game talking about moving their labs to Gleba after playing the planet and before they've learned about Biolabs.

[Shulmeister]

By suggesting biolabs could be placed on Gleba you're suggesting to remove what was described as "latency concern" in the supply chain.

If you choose to build the labs on Gleba.

Why would you argue for labs to be placed on Gleba if not because you want to remove the "latency challenge" for yourself ?

What's so unclear with the title that you think this thread is about placing biolabs on Gleba ?

[HeliGungir]

In the first post I linked 129833 where Rseding explained their position about Biolabs on Gleba.

tl;dr:

1. They want to reward shipping spoilable Ag Science elsewhere
2. If you want to do research on Gleba, you can still do so with normal labs

Now I don't agree that normal labs on Gleba are a serious option because Biolabs are so much stronger. But I do agree with the basic premise that shipping spoilable Ag Science elsewhere should be rewarded.

However, there's a big leap from "Biolabs cannot be on Gleba" to "Biolabs can only be on Nauvis" which I don't agree with.

If there are other balance issues with having Biolabs on Vulcanus, Fulgora, Aquilo, I think those issues should be addressed. Science encompasses the majority of the production chain. If Vulcanus is the best for science by a lot, that suggests Vulcanus is overtuned in general and needs tweaking anyway.

These issues should be addressed one at a time until the best planet is not so clear, so that choosing which planet to place Biolabs on is a difficult decision. (Or normal Labs, in the case of Gleba.)

[ES64U2]

What about another solution: Instead of spreading biolabs to more planets, engage building labs on each planet by adding some kind of (master-)slave laboratories as a late game item.

Slave labs can be built on other planets but they each need to transmit their scientific results via radio to a to an actual active biolab on Nauvis, so it can only produce results, if the corresponding Nauvis lab exists and works.
The slave labs can be different per planet and have advantages like omitting potions and disadvantages like needing to be specially fueled.

For example the slave lab for space platforms could omit any planet potion but be required to be fueled by prometium and only have 30 % of the efficiency of a biolab.
There could be a Nauvis slave lab, that has 130 % efficiency, but needs to be placed at least 1k tiles away from the corresponding biolab to engage a long railway line. (This could even be a midgame item in a classic, non-biolab version and then later be upgraded to a biolab version.)
The quirk of the Vulcanus slave lab could be, that it is build on stilt and it is placed in an territory of a living demolisher (that is scientificly observed) and fed via a staircase at the border of the territory with a mechanic similar to platform hub extensions.
The slave lab of Fulgora can be very high to be purposefully struck by lightning (to do scientific research on lightnings), which is a optical effect in the first place, but therefore can not contain an antenna, so it has to be connected to a radar via logical network and the signal needs to be slightly modified by a simple but random mathematical formula (like 3 x A + 5 or 1 if > 74) that can be achieved by two math operators or one comparator, to engage touching the logical network.
And of cause there could also be a slave lab for Gleba, because it will automaticly ensure that there are at least the same number of correctly fed labs on Nauvis to engage spoilable transport.

There are dozens of possible names (I think slave lab won't be popular), I just want to throw "lab outpost" in the ring.

(PS: Aquilo does not need a mayor quirk, a minor may be sufficient. Maybe the lab beeing a heat sink.)
(PPS: Idea for a possible quirk for Gleba: Slave labs in Gleba may engage improving black start ability. Like this: The labs have high efficiency but you need to distribute mold spores over the whole planet every hour. You create a mold packet, launch a rocket with it and as a result the whole planet first gets dark (no solar), stormy (optical effect), all enemies shell themselves, then all spoilable objects, that are currently on Gleba get spoiled immediately, and then the planet gets normal again. As a result you need to upgrade everything on the planet so it can automatic restart. Bio processors are down immediately, because their nutrient has spoiled, so they need a mechanical backup, that produces your first nutrient from spoilage again. I think it is too unintuitive to regain enemie eggs via recycling a bio processor, so maybe enemie eggs should survive.)