Allow Biolabs on every planet *except* Gleba

[HeliGungir]

TL;DR:

Allow Biolabs on every planet except Gleba

• If desired, this could be gated behind promethium science

Why?

1. This maintains only 1 landing pad per planet as a logistic puzzle, and to keep GUIs simple FFF-417
2. This maintains "it's cool to have a single location with lots of activity"
3. This maintains "shipping spoilable Ag Science to another planet should be rewarded" 129833
4. When megabasing, players now have up to 4 Landing Pads (one on each planet) to ram science packs through, alleviating the throughput issues we currently face trying to ram everything through a single landing pad on Nauvis 130388
5. This encourages producing the 6 basic science packs on each planet, which is more interesting than only producing them on Nauvis
6. Nauvis is still relevant as the only source of biter eggs and uranium, and Bioflux still has to be shipped to Nauvis
7. If desired, the ability to place Biolabs on planets other than Nauvis could be gated behind promethium science
8. Any lore excuse can be made. Maybe Biolabs are allergic to the spores on Gleba

[crimsonarmy]

I somehow went from being against this to being pro it from reading the why section.

[eugenekay]

Any lore excuse can be made. Maybe Biolabs are allergic to the spores on Gleba

I think that this bit of Lore is the ONLY reason worth considering, and explains perfectly why Biolabs must stay only on Nauvis: they are based on Biter Biology! The crafting recipe's major ingredient is Biter Eggs, which means the Lab is performing ethically questionable animal testing. Vulcanus' pressure is too high to support non-Demolisher life; Fulgora's soil is poisoned with Heavy Oil from a long-dead industrial civilization; and Aquilo's Ammonia atmosphere is as unbreathable as the vacuum of a Space Platform.

This idea seems like a good candidate for a fork of an existing mod, so that folks can try it out and see what the resulting factories actually look like.

[crimsonarmy]

Any lore excuse can be made. Maybe Biolabs are allergic to the spores on Gleba

I think that this bit of Lore is the ONLY reason worth considering, and explains perfectly why Biolabs must stay only on Nauvis: they are based on Biter Biology! The crafting recipe's major ingredient is Biter Eggs, which means the Lab is performing ethically questionable animal testing. Vulcanus' pressure is too high to support non-Demolisher life; Fulgora's soil is poisoned with Heavy Oil from a long-dead industrial civilization; and Aquilo's Ammonia atmosphere is as unbreathable as the vacuum of a Space Platform.

This idea seems like a good candidate for a fork of an existing mod, so that folks can try it out and see what the resulting factories actually look like.

There is the issue of biters survive everywhere.

[eugenekay]

There is the issue of biters survive everywhere.

Survive? Biter Eggs spoil into a "Big Biter" with reduced health; not into a Spawner. Bacterium may "survive" in space, but they are not happy about it, and definitely not reproducing or usable for Scientific Research.

[coffee-factorio]

[*]Any lore excuse can be made. Maybe Biolabs are allergic to the spores on Gleba

I mean, you are putting a semi-insect biological computer on a planet that is largely insect eating fungus. It isn't that they are allergic. It's that they smell like dinner.

[HeliGungir]

There is the issue of biters survive everywhere.

Survive? Biter Eggs spoil into a "Big Biter" with reduced health; not into a Spawner. Bacterium may "survive" in space, but they are not happy about it, and definitely not reproducing or usable for Scientific Research.

I am a strong believer in gameplay > lore, especially for a game like Factorio. There's always some excuse you can make to handwaive gameplay decisions. Or you can choose to never address them at all, like how EM plants and Foundries can only be crafted on their respective planets for... no lore-based reason at all!

We could say Biolabs aren't biter nests, they're a biomachine - a synthetic pseudo-lifeform that can withstand temperature and pressure extremes, but unfortunately, the spores on Gleba attack their cellular structure. And if it was Wube saying this, instead of me, nobody would bat an eye.

[mmmPI]

Maybe it's not known but the UPS impact on bot unloading the landing pad is almost nothing compared to the cost of space platform going for promethium mining, so this suggestion will only have minimal impact on UPS.

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

There's a mod that allow biolabs in space an other planets, already btw : https://mods.factorio.com/mod/biolabs-in-space

It was linked in a previous topic that contain similar suggestion : 123940

It also contain the lore reference that was mentionned in the FFF as for why this is the case :

The Biolab can be used only on Nauvis as the organism inside would die on other planets, but in turn it only consumes half the amount of science packs for any given research.

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-431

[crimsonarmy]

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

I do see what you are saying (and kind of agree), but each planet has it's benefits for having your labs on it (other than Aquilo): Vulcanus has the ability to easily make a lot of science, Fulgora is in close proximity to Aquilo, and Navius is centrally located and is your home planet (so many people will use it by default).

[Hurkyl]

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

I do see what you are saying (and kind of agree), but each planet has it's benefits for having your labs on it (other than Aquilo): Vulcanus has the ability to easily make a lot of science, Fulgora is in close proximity to Aquilo, and Navius is centrally located and is your home planet (so many people will use it by default).

As an aside, Nauvis is not centrally located: that honor belongs to Gleba, which has a space route to all four of the other planets.

[quineotio]

Allow Biolabs on every planet

Too many arbitrary restrictions in Space Age. Let me choose.

[CyberCider]

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

Agreed. Biolabs being Nauvis only is the only thing preventing the terrible design and balance of Vulcanus from “infecting” the entire rest of the game. And just barely, it still greatly affects quality and the early/mid game. It’s too late to change the entire planet, so its impact on the rest of the game’s quality shouldn’t be allowed to get more severe in any other ways.

[Kyralessa]

Agreed. Biolabs being Nauvis only is the only thing preventing the terrible design and balance of Vulcanus from “infecting” the entire rest of the game. And just barely, it still greatly affects quality and the early/mid game. It’s too late to change the entire planet, so its impact on the rest of the game’s quality shouldn’t be allowed to get more severe in any other ways.

Huh, a lot of assertions being made there.

[HeliGungir]

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

Vulcanus struggles to produce stone products (rails, purple science) and coal products (plastic, circuits) at megabase speeds. Coal can be synthesized with orbital mining, but the point is: while megabasing might be simpler on Vulcanus, it's not quite as simple as you might initially think.

They can tweak the size of coal patches, and asteroid spawn rates. Could make carbonic asteroids nonexistent around and en-route to+from Vulcanus. Food for thought.

[mmmPI]

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

I do see what you are saying (and kind of agree), but each planet has it's benefits for having your labs on it (other than Aquilo): Vulcanus has the ability to easily make a lot of science, Fulgora is in close proximity to Aquilo, and Navius is centrally located and is your home planet (so many people will use it by default).

No, for having tried the different, there's no benefit having your labs on Fulgora, Gleba and Aquilo are out of the question, Nauvis is the usual, that only leaves Vulcanus.

My opinion is that this incentivize players to make all their labs in Vulcanus and not on every planets.

Vulcanus struggles to produce stone products (rails, purple science) and coal products (plastic, circuits) at megabase speeds. Coal can be synthesized with orbital mining, but the point is: while megabasing might be simpler on Vulcanus, it's not quite as simple as you might initially think.

They can tweak the size of coal patches, and asteroid spawn rates. Could make carbonic asteroids nonexistent around and en-route to+from Vulcanus. Food for thought.

I understand you have a different opinion, based on your experience, where would you say is an easier place to produce plastic and stone product at megabase scale ?

[HeliGungir]

I understand you have a different opinion, based on your experience, where would you say is an easier place to produce plastic and stone product at megabase scale ?

Well Nauvis.

Yes, one planet will be best. It is human nature to seek out the optimal, even at the cost of fun.

But when you megabase, using 5k bots just to unload a single landing pad on a single planet is rough on your UPS. My first suggestion thread related to this topic was to allow more landing pads so you can keep using basic inserters and avoid using bots or wagon/car/etc daisy-chaining.

My next suggestion thread was this one: Allow Biolabs on other planets so research can be done in a decentralized way, so no single landing pad needs to have as much throughput as Nauvis currently does. I hope to find a balance where making and researching science on multiple planets is more UPS-efficient than doing it all on one planet, because you're unloading less items from landing pads, so you can use inserters rather than bots.

And then secondarily (which is starting to become "primarily" as I mull over the consequences more and more): The idea that it is optimal or perhaps even required to make basic science locally and have labs perform research on each planet is just really attractive to me.

[mmmPI]

I understand you have a different opinion, based on your experience, where would you say is an easier place to produce plastic and stone product at megabase scale ?

Well Nauvis.

Yes, one planet will be best. It is human nature to seek out the optimal, even at the cost of fun.

I think you understand where i'm going there x) Next question would be :

If you think Nauvis is the best planet for stone and plastic and Vulcanus for the rest, isn't that an incentive to make all your science on Vulcanus or Nauvis only ? and since Nauvis was already possible the suggestion is thus an incentive to make biolab on Vulcanus ? and not "every planet".

Now if you are megabasing plastic and stone are easy to do on Vulcanus, thanks to levels of mining productivity you don't reach in casual game, you can rely on the coal patches that are on the planet, and the stone can be made from the calcite you mine on Vulcanus too, if you are considering UPS optimization particularly, because you don't want to use unecessary space platforms which are a real UPS consumer.

Doing all your science only on Vulcanus removes the need to ship 1 science pack, at the cost of making another one ( from Fulgora ) travel a longer distance, actually helping to reduce the throughput constraint on a single landing pad if you think that is important ( but really it's not-much )

But when you megabase, using 5k bots just to unload a single landing pad on a single planet is rough on your UPS. My first suggestion thread related to this topic was to allow more landing pads so you can keep using basic inserters and avoid using bots or wagon/car/etc daisy-chaining.

The cost in UPS appeared insignificant to me compared to the cost of the space platforms something like 1/100th or less, but even going past this, the number of landing pads you would need to replace 5K bots or a megabase worth of throughput using basic inserters is not going to be 1 on each planet, more like hundreds if not thousands.

My next suggestion thread was this one: Allow Biolabs on other planets so research can be done in a decentralized way, so no single landing pad needs to have as much throughput as Nauvis currently does. I hope to find a balance where making and researching science on multiple planets is more UPS-efficient than doing it all on one planet, because you're unloading less items from landing pads, so you can use inserters rather than bots.

You know in the rules it says you should try to see if the suggestion you're about to make already exists, or something like that, in case that isn't a step you considered earlier, for the third ^^

I think the idea of "making science on multiple planets" as a gameplay thing is interesting in itself, but the suggestion wouldn't lead to this and misses the point when mentionning UPS considerations.

And then secondarily (which is starting to become "primarily" as I mull over the consequences more and more): The idea that it is optimal or perhaps even required to make basic science locally and have labs perform research on each planet is just really attractive to me.

That seem to be the point of the suggestion given the title, this is why i mentionned that imo it would in fact lead to an incentive to Vulcanus, i don't have a good idea for how to make what you say happens, i read the suggestions and when i see something that i think would not work i point it out, maybe i'm wrong maybe i misunderstand something, maybe the suggestion can be adapted, i don't know, but in current state for me it doesn't work.

To me your wish for decentralized science could be solved more by something like "some science packs can't go into space" say from Fulgora and Aquilo. This would mean you need to bring red green blue purple ... to those planets, or make them there, ( or in orbit for Aquilo). But this limits badly how many different pack a technology can require, because then you can't have a tech that need science from both Fulgora AND Aquilo.

In any case, to me, if you are required to ship science on several planets the UPS impact is most likely going to be negative, because space platforms are more expensive compared to bots that unload from landing pad, it's removing a little somewhere and adding a lot more elsewhere.

[quineotio]

Allow Biolabs on other planets so research can be done in a decentralized way, so no single landing pad needs to have as much throughput as Nauvis currently does.

I think this would be a major benefit. Not just minimizing the need for landing pad throughput, but also allowing options for specializing on the different planets. For example, there isn't much stone on Gleba, but you could produce yellow science there (in addition to the red/green/blue). And Vulcanus is abundant in stone so you could produce purple science there. So you could specialize each planet to research different techs.

But also I'd like the option to scale up on different planets. For example, it'd be fun to build all the science on Gleba and just import purple/military - or even to produce those things on Gleba after quality big mining drills and mining productivity, and deal with the logistics of getting stone from a lot of small patches. But there's no real point in doing that at the moment because you have to send everything to Nauvis anyway, so why not just build it there?

Some of this could be mitigated if there was a new science pack that replaced red/green/blue, because it would cut down the logistics. Alternatively there could be a second tier of science packs on each planet which is more difficult/expensive to build, but negates the need for red/green/blue. And it could also be mitigated if there was some way to increase landing pad size or quantity, which is an annoying restriction anyway. But even then you need a lot of production for rocket parts if you want to export all science, which heavily incentivizes building it where you need it.

But regardless, I don't think the game is made better in any way by removing choice. Enforcing the "challenge" of shipping spoil-able packs gives up a lot for little gain. And you could still keep this challenge if you made a research after biolabs that allowed you to build them anywhere, so you'd still need to ship them initially.

[Hurkyl]

Enforcing the "challenge" of shipping spoil-able packs gives up a lot for little gain. And you could still keep this challenge if you made a research after biolabs that allowed you to build them anywhere, so you'd still need to ship them initially.

The "challenge" isn't about whether you are capable of doing it, it's about adding latency as another dimension to the logistics problem.

I strongly dislike any suggestion to modify the game to erase latency as a concern, whether literally or effectively. Heck, its lack is something I considered to be a glaring flaw of the vanilla game.

[quineotio]

Enforcing the "challenge" of shipping spoil-able packs gives up a lot for little gain. And you could still keep this challenge if you made a research after biolabs that allowed you to build them anywhere, so you'd still need to ship them initially.

The "challenge" isn't about whether you are capable of doing it, it's about adding latency as another dimension to the logistics problem.

I strongly dislike any suggestion to modify the game to erase latency as a concern, whether literally or effectively. Heck, its lack is something I considered to be a glaring flaw of the vanilla game.

I'm curious as to what you think I was referring to when I used the word "challenge". I'm also curious as to why you think this would be "erased" if you had the option to build biolabs on every planet. Please keep this in mind if you choose to answer:

And you could still keep this challenge if you made a research after biolabs that allowed you to build them anywhere, so you'd still need to ship them initially.