We support Ukraine

[enterisys]

There is no doubt that there are no truly independent journalists in Ukraine on both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ucha+grave

Are you implying that all these independent journalists are not independent? Like ALL of them?

Which of them writes about how the therodefense kills civilians? Or that the Ukrainian government is lying?
Or a new entertainment of the Ukrainian people. Tape the man or woman to the pole and take off his pants?
If one of them writes this, it will be the last day they were in Ukraine. There is no doubt that there are no truly independent journalists in Ukraine on both sides.

Why would they?
They write about facts not some delusional sci-fi your fake agencies come up with.

Have you already found and want to share confirmation of the words of the Ukrainian president about killed Ukrainian soldiers on the snake island?

Sorry russian fake media is silent on the topic.

[mmmPI]

But there is this man that claim the earth is flat. There is no concensus amongst the scientist. No doubt there are fake news in both side.

[mmmPI]

I personally do not support war in any form. And I do not support the Soviet Union version 2, which is now being built in Russia.

I will surprise you, there is no war in Ukraine. If you don't believe me, please find the message about the declaration of war.

I didn't support aggression then and I don't support it now. (but it doesn’t matter to you either, since you can’t humanize me, because I’m a bot)

Let's see what happens when they clean up Mariupol and go to smash the Ukrainian troops in Dombas.

The war will end, but what you wrote will remain..

That's just a reminder that this troll contradict himself on a daily basis, he registered only to post crap on this thread just click his profile.

[vladimir_putin]

The situation in ukraine is so unclear one cannot trust jornalist, UN, eye witness, satellite, camera or common sense.

We must be grateful that Patriotic factory game forum member will share links from telegram feed with their expert analysis.

[mmmPI]

Is that why you registered on this forum ? to turn into derision a topic ? you thought it was a good idea ?

Hey look a topic about people dying, such a nice place to act like a sarcastic troll isn't it ?

[Koub]

Is that why you registered on this forum ? to turn into derision a topic ? you thought it was a good idea ?

Hey look a topic about people dying, such a nice place to act like a sarcastic troll isn't it ?

Let's be honest : The topic of this thread is serious. And sad.
But this forum thread is a joke. It's about twice as long as the second longest thread in terms of post count, but has the quarter or the fifth of its views. Just a handful of people with way too much time on their hands shouting at each others with no other goal that to outshout the others.

[DanGio]

Maybe this thread could be moved to Off topic section ? It's never been about Factorio form the start, only created automatically by the forum bot. In Off topic section, the discussion could continue without taking the 1st place of every FFF threads on the News page.

[Koub]

Maybe this thread could be moved to Off topic section ? It's never been about Factorio form the start, only created automatically by the forum bot. In Off topic section, the discussion could continue without taking the 1st place of every FFF threads on the News page.

[Koub] Moderator-me writing
We moderators are quite independent, each one of us has their own policy, so I only speak for myself on his subject.
If it was my forum, I would have never created such a thread, knowing from start no good would result from it. But it's not, I'm just a (special) guest on Wube's forum. I have declared myself incompetent on this thread's moderation. If the devs want some kind of moderation, they'll either have do do it themselves, or give precise and explicit directions to us moderators.
I still have to keep an eye on the thread because there are things I can moderate (escort girl ads, and stuff), and to respond to calls for some kind of moderation (by saying basically "yes, but no").

Allow me to quote myself :

[Koub] Moderator-me writing
@Devs : The choice is yours to open such a polemic topic on this forum : it's your forum .
But don't expect me to do any moderation on it, because I'm not qualified to tell apart the propaganda, the trolling, the truth, the fake news, ... on such subjects.

However, I'll be locking every single other thread opened on the subject and link them to this thread. At least that should keep the rest of the forum clean.

[mmmPI]

Is that why you registered on this forum ? to turn into derision a topic ? you thought it was a good idea ?

Hey look a topic about people dying, such a nice place to act like a sarcastic troll isn't it ?

Let's be honest : The topic of this thread is serious. And sad.
But this forum thread is a joke. It's about twice as long as the second longest thread in terms of post count, but has the quarter or the fifth of its views. Just a handful of people with way too much time on their hands shouting at each others with no other goal that to outshout the others.

I'm answering to the non-moderator Koub : I agree, the topic is serious, sad is euphism. I disagree with the forum thread being a joke, i think it's more a garbage where nothing is funny or supposed to be funny, it's like a wasted opportunity, something that could have been/ could be, and instead is not.

Although the figures you mention are factual, your interpretation is 'judgemental', in that it's your personnal opinion given in an attempted neutral manner that does injustice to some human beings that do not share the motivation you describe.

Another narrative could be "some people are paid to post bullshit repeatdly in order to contaminate all open places of discussion and turning it into what you have described". Then the reasonnable individuals are left with no choice other than to enter an information bubble to avoid those aggressive disinformation. Since all public-open discussion are suscpetible to those flood/spam people have to register into circles that dismiss newcomers. It forces people to leave anonymity to enter those group, and expose them to repression or surveillance. Or it attract them to propaganda/brainwashing/self-declared-genius-guru circles. It ruins the ability for everyone to interact with everyone else, effectively attacking a certain vision of the world, ideologically and on purposes.

Another detrimental consequences that i see of this desinformation by flood/spam of low quality copy paste is that it challenges the ability of human beings working to provide such public-open discussion space. How do you deal with that without denying your own principle of free speech is a difficult question, any measures is felt like a balance, a trade-off between more of moderation, or not. The very fact of aggressively copy pasting trash content to flood channel of communication/media i see as putting pressure volutarily to make your "opponent" do mistakes.

In this regard i think opening the thread was a risky stand, but it yields good results, i don't think anyone read this while trying to inform oneself. This is factorio forum. One cannot miss that there exist in the world people supporting Ukraine, no matter how deep you are in your information bubble. I also think that's why it's getting targeted because there is a russian audience to factorio and that's the main target audience of the flood. There is to me hardly any reason to go in a thread called "we support ukraine" to post content that is not aligned with the title, REPEATDLY, that's not the same as people coming by.

Interestingly though, when you come to the thread and it look like there is a heaten debate, it becomes "natural" to pick you side, and use your "free speech" to voice it. It doesn't seem logical anymore to just post your support to russia in a forum that took a pro-russian stance. This de-facto situation where even a moderator consider it's just a bunch of people trying to outshout each other is enough to justify the pause in the flooding because it means the objective is achieved imo.

Given the tool available it's a challenge to appeal to the reason of people and not their feeling or emotion, so that they realize how propaganda work.

[EDIT: i know the moderator-you stance, i understand it even though i do not share the same vision, sometimes i regreted discussion being stopped, i think there could be alternative explored such as preventing people from posting links or pictures and prevent the use of copy paste, this makes it more annoying for people who wants to flood without having to function on a per-iindividual basis such as permission and ID ]

[Djmixxx]

I like the free format of the forum threads. This is what democracy should be. Where everyone decides for himself what is a lie, and where there can be truth.

[Djmixxx]

“We must continue to arm Ukraine. We need less applause and more help... 1 billion euros is what we pay Putin every day for the energy he supplies us. Since the beginning of the war, we have given him 35 billion euros ... Compare this with the 1 billion euros that we gave Ukraine in the form of weapons "(c) Borrell

Still, there is a difference - Russia received 35 billion for the supplied resources.
Ukraine received its 1 billion in debt to wage war to the last "Ukrainian". More money to Ukraine-more dead Ukrainians.

This is written by one of our suppliers:

After staying around 0.70 euros/kg for many years, the price of black steel go to 1.40-1.50 euros during the last year. Then, towards the end of the year, it peaked and even began to decline slightly. Now, after Ukraine, I paid for last supply 2.50 euro/kg and didn't even haggle because I was happy just to be able to get the damn thing.

You can support Ukraine, you can not support Ukraine. But in reality, all the people of Europe will definitely pay for sanctions. But I don’t understand why I should pay for the death of Ukrainians.

[mmmPI]

I will post information related to Ukraine. Maybe she's one-sided.
I try not to take information from official Russian sources.

All your objections: I manipulate opinion. Yes, even if so. I only stir what angered me.
I am not forbidding you to post anything. As long as you only blame me.

I don't know why i remembered this one of your quote. I think it's because it examplify how the aggressive cheap copy pasting function. You claim a reason for yourself to propagate news you can't even verify. You claim everyone is free to decide what is a lie, which is ridiculous, you can decide that the sun or gravity or dead people are a lie, that is akin to making a mistake. Although you are free to decided your opinion, it doesn't mean after you decided the choice was correct.

And while claiming everyone is free to decide that his personnal opinion is the truth without any reflexion on knowledge, JUST AFTER, you push a cheap copy paste story that is not even information. Just another one of those 430 + post that you did taking a stand against the title of thread, with the only motivation as far as you explained is your egoïsm ?

What angers you is the increase of the price you allegdly have to pay for steel ? you said in your first post that you wouldn't "just sit and wait", you explained countless time why there was a legitimate special warfare operation, i'm surprised you are now complaining about the consequences of that special operation.

EDIT: the cheap previous copy paste doesn't even mention a country. just "the 1 billion we give to Ukraine". And the name "Borrel" __ Not even information

[enterisys]

“We must continue to arm Ukraine. We need less applause and more help... 1 billion euros is what we pay putin every day for the energy he supplies us. Since the beginning of the war, we have given him 35 billion euros ... Compare this with the 1 billion euros that we gave Ukraine in the form of weapons "(c) Borrell

Still, there is a difference - russia received 35 billion for the supplied resources.
Ukraine received its 1 billion in debt to wage war to the last "russian". More money to russia - more dead Ukrainians.

It is truly amazing how corrupt russia is if they are even loosing 35 to 1.

[Djmixxx]

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022 ... id-borrell

[mmmPI]

That's too stupid it makes it tough to explain.

1) without the date the original copy pasta had 0 meaning
2) the conclusion from the article that Ukraine aid = 1 billion is stupid because article is only about EU not USA or UK or NATO for example.
3) No explanation about the relation of this aid and the increase of the price of steel since 2021. ( increased earlier than the war, skyrocketed due to Russia blocaking Ukraine export port and bombing steel plant in Ukraine ? )
4) that's in line with previous quote i digged, that' aggressive cheap copy paste from someone that isn't smart or paid enough to develop argument
5) Still no reason to post news article link in here except as you said, manipulating opinion when you only "stir what anger you".

I think you should send a letter to president vladimir putin to adress your concern about the steel price, it's unrelated with EU aid to Ukraine, maybe it has to do with the economic sanctions, but you said earlier in this thread that the westerner put sanction on russia for no reason, just because they demonize russia. That seem like another contradiction in what a human being would have as a reasonning. But it makes more sense if you consider a paid-troll that aggressively copy paste low quality article link with no filter or context.

I was explained earlier in this thread it's called the media biais => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias

When you have 100 text , pick the only 2 3 that fits your narrative, and copy paste them everywhere. that's cheap agressive copy pasta.

[Djmixxx]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/04/biden-c ... raine.html

What an interesting statement from a country , which has issued itself a badge of the world policeman and spits on all laws.

Re: Impunity for war crimes in Afghanistan: Threats & reprisal by the US against the International Criminal Court and its Prosecutor

https://www.lrwc.org/european-union-ens ... nal-court/

[mmmPI]

Thank you for illustrating my point about aggressive copy pasting of links, being unable to have discussion, anyone logged in is free to click you profile and realize that ALL you post since you registered are on this thread doing the same thing.

Edit : i just realize it's because i used the word USA, it triggered the keyword let's talk afghanistan, the string are obvious

USA aid to Ukraine is how much ? does that mean Ukraine only received 1 billion in loan ? switch topic much ?

[enterisys]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/04/biden-c ... raine.html

What an interesting statement from a country , which has issued itself a badge of the world policeman and spits on all laws.

Re: Impunity for war crimes in Afghanistan: Threats & reprisal by the US against the International Criminal Court and its Prosecutor

https://www.lrwc.org/european-union-ens ... nal-court/

First google result

The number of civilians killed in conflict in Afghanistan rose by 15 per cent in the first six months of this year, the United Nations mission in the country said today, releasing figures that showed 1,462 non-combatants died, with insurgents responsible for 80 per cent of the killings.

Oh yes on russian military telegram it is Ukrainians killing their own civilians.

[Djmixxx]

How does this relate to the fact that the US threatens the staff of the International Criminal Court if they investigate US crimes?

[FuryoftheStars]

If true, the US should be held accountable.

However, it does not give Russia permission to do the same.

Once again… “but they did it” is not a valid excuse.