Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

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Tricorius
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Tricorius » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:32 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:41 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 am
A private company cannot be reasonably accused of censorship, ... They can shut the entire site down. They can ban you, delete your account, and wipe all of your posts. The fact that they haven't shows who here is being unreasonable.
...well, all I can say is you have a very funny definition of "reasonable".
Holy balls, man. Are you still on about this?

I considered posting this yesterday (as I honestly had a bit of an “ah-ha” moment), but chose not to until now...
featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:31 am
impetus maximus wrote:here is a hint. my first computer had 128KB of RAM. :P
The first computer I owned had slightly more than that. The first computer I used had considerably less than that. I've been boycotting Apple since 1991.
You have actively boycotted a corporation for nearly three decades, through five (5) quite different CEO’s...

Please, boycott Wube, perhaps they will become the most powerful gaming company in the world. I’d quite like that, actually. I wish them all the fame and fortune. If you want to talk about bad gaming companies, you should focus on that list provided above in the slight “stock deviation” section.

As far I can tell Wube are one of the top tier game development studios.

Toward the censorship topic, I hope you realize that the only real “harmful” kind of corporate censorship that exists is a corporation attempting to control its employees (or clients) by threat of monetary loss, employment loss, or loss of access to the marketplace. (You mention DMs and imply they are from the developers. If any of them threatened you, your family, or your employment status, then I will agree with you that is uncalled for and hostile.)

Otherwise, the development studio pay for the resources of this forum, are able to dictate the rules of its use, and you, by using it have agreed to abide by said rules. I haven’t reread them in order to quote any applicable ones to this conversation, because I really don’t care that much.

But I seriously suggest letting this “Wube are the modern corporate equivalent to the worlds evil” thing go. I looked at forum post specifically setup to discuss modding the axe back in.

The topic was started with a guideline:
Please keep this thread free of discussion about The Problem Existing in the first place and Why the problem is the worst case of negligence in a dev team. There are other places to discuss that.
I find it interesting that it started quite productive with some ideas and pseudocode. This continues, a bit, interspersed between...

A wall of text, from you, basically saying you know exactly how to fix this little conundrum we find ourselves in (which apparently is the worst problem facing our collective society, about to rip us down in flames and take us back to the dark ages).

Aside: I can’t tell what your profession is. I think you mentioned you’re a software developer, but that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If you are, you should understand what I’m about to tell you, if not, please take this to heart. Most software developers don’t like to be told the equivalent of “oh, this is simple...all you have to do is [ten-point list which would cause two months of additional work to do].”

Now, text can be misleading, but from your early tone in that thread I think you were excited to see a “purple” post addressing the modding API in a way to Make Pickaxes Great Again. And I do think you were trying to help.

Your next post (again, I think your main intention is trying to be helpful) is to ping two authors of mods similar to what are being discussed. However, the main mistake here is the actual quotes you used to ping.

One of them, BuilderOfAges simply says “yeah, I have high hopes, but I’m waiting for the dust to settle”. (Not a bad option, by the way. Gives time for emotions to settle.) He graciously bows out, and suggests maybe you should try your idea of a mod.

The other “bobbingabout” seems to be taking an (assumed by me) “mental health” break from the forums at the moment—been there, done that—very “zen”). ;)

(Here would have been a great opportunity to channel your concerns into trying to see what you could do with a very basic mod, which would give you insight into the API, serve as a diversion from the forum, and potentially give a sense of accomplishment, and a start to a concrete solution to a problem you’ve identified.)

Next is a bit more discussion (and a bit of helpful psuedocode) pointing out a few more things.

Then, another post from you, pulling on some more quotes, general grumpiness, and...an anime image? Maybe. I dunno what that thing is.

(Note, abregado asked specifically for this to not happen in that thread.)

And the next post...

Moderator locks the thread.

And said moderator comes here, to try to help you understand why they have been a bit more ... “locky” on this particular subject. And instead of look at it and maybe reflect that you could have followed the posted rules for that thread; you choose to fight back, find some nit-picky details to prove the other threads were “locked under false pretense” (or something...I’m really not sure why you’re still being argumentative toward the devs and moderators at this point).

Now, please understand I’m not trying to be mean. I do still think, overall, you’re trying to help solve something you feel very passionate about. But I really think you need to channel your frustration into something more constructive. I would encourage to pick up the modding API and get to know it. This will help you redirect your frustrations toward something constructive, and you might come out the other side with something that helps the whole Factorio community.

I’m speaking from a place of knowing. I was right in the middle of the “belts vs bots” firestorm. I was actually considering that logistics bots, growing forward, would not be what I wanted them to be. I play a heavily-vanilla-ed game. ;) I prefer that to mods. Other than World of Warcraft, Factorio is probably my most played single game title. And I take my games very seriously (“professional raider” in the good-old-days when I had a lot of WoW time). Believe me, I had some *very* passionate diatribes about tanking balance through a decade of high level end game content.

I looked into the mod API. So that I would have the tools and knowledge to be able to help save my pet feature, if possible; in the case that it was effectively removed. I’m happy I did so. It was a good break from the forums and it expanded some ideas in my general programmer brain.

I don’t know you, so I have no idea if your avatar is you, or a persona. But if you really do feel this strongly, I applaud you for being passionate in life. But I caution as well, this is a game. A digital diversion. These are very important. We are humans. We need entertainment.

We need a tribe to identify. But this forum is filled with other humans. It is filled with a development and moderation team who are also humans. They also put steak on the table via this game. To them it is a bit more than passion.

Please, everyone, remember when you toss a quote into this forum and add some color commentary, you are talking about (and to) an actual person somewhere on the planet.

Now, this is my last contribution to the whole axe thing. (Yes, it’s my final pickaxe to grind. :: grin ::) I prefer to see how the game works with the changes in. I still might change my mind (though doubtful) on the pickaxe. :: shrugs, wanders off humming “Kumbaya” ::

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm

Tricorius wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:32 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:41 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 am
A private company cannot be reasonably accused of censorship, ... They can shut the entire site down. They can ban you, delete your account, and wipe all of your posts. The fact that they haven't shows who here is being unreasonable.
...well, all I can say is you have a very funny definition of "reasonable".
Holy balls, man. Are you still on about this?
Oh, you think deleting forum accounts over something like this is reasonable, too? It's pretty obvious Wube has me upset with their behaviour on these threads, but even I have more faith in them than that.
Now, this is my last contribution to the whole axe thing. (Yes, it’s my final pickaxe to grind. :: grin ::) I prefer to see how the game works with the changes in. I still might change my mind (though doubtful) on the pickaxe. :: shrugs, wanders off humming “Kumbaya” ::
My thanks. I'm actually very encouraged that the low-quality, humorless tripe from my opponents encouraging Wube to take steps that would rapidly destroy their reputation and revenue remain. The fact that they have not locked this thread is very encouraging. I would ask that anyone else who might be browsing this thread and feel a need to take something out on me please wait for Wube to respond.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Tricorius » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:16 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm
Tricorius wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:32 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:41 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 am
A private company cannot be reasonably accused of censorship, ... They can shut the entire site down. They can ban you, delete your account, and wipe all of your posts. The fact that they haven't shows who here is being unreasonable.
...well, all I can say is you have a very funny definition of "reasonable".
Holy balls, man. Are you still on about this?
Oh, you think deleting forum accounts over something like this is reasonable, too? It's pretty obvious Wube has me upset with their behaviour on these threads, but even I have more faith in them than that.
Ok, fine. One more, since this isn’t what I meant. They certainly have the right to delete accounts or completely destroy the forum. I doubt they would do that. And I think it would be silly to do so, but they certainly have the right.

Again, I haven’t read back through the TOS / EULA for the forums. So I don’t know if they might consider it reasonable enough. However, I do not expect them to do this.
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm
Now, this is my last contribution to the whole axe thing. (Yes, it’s my final pickaxe to grind. :: grin ::) I prefer to see how the game works with the changes in. I still might change my mind (though doubtful) on the pickaxe. :: shrugs, wanders off humming “Kumbaya” ::
My thanks. I'm actually very encouraged that the low-quality, humorless tripe from my opponents encouraging Wube to take steps that would rapidly destroy their reputation and revenue remain. The fact that they have not locked this thread is very encouraging. I would ask that anyone else who might be browsing this thread and feel a need to take something out on me please wait for Wube to respond.
Yeah, I added a Dad joke in that last paragraph. Sue me. ;) My jokes usually suck, but they entertain me anyway.

I don’t recall encouraging Wube to do anything to destroy their reputation or revenue. I believe a final polishing of the game to prep the “new player experience” (sorry, I don’t think you like that term, but I don’t have a better one on hand at the moment) and casual user base (which I fully expect to be the primary revenue source by far) will ensure a reasonably maintainable game that is fun for most players. Which equals a great reputation and revenue stream.

99% of the people who buy this game won’t know these forums exist or care that the game evolved over time. The game has changed plenty of stuff I liked over time too...but I still enjoy the game.

And again, I was trying to point a few things out since I honestly feel that you’re experiencing a bit of a “victim mentality” point of view. I don’t mean any offense. I’m not trying to “kick you while you’re down” or anything. I think you’re feeling personally attacked or targeted by moderators shutting down threads. (Again, I haven’t seen all of the communication, so maybe those feelings are founded. If so, that would definitely be a concern to me.)

All I’m saying is that I found a great way to channel my energy when I (freaked out a bit) participated in the bots firestorm and thought it might help you.

That is all.

Edit: had to fix a lot of things that my iPad autocorrect tried to help me with. Sorry for any spelling or grammatical issues.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:08 pm

Tricorius wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Ok, fine. One more, since this isn’t what I meant. They certainly have the right to delete accounts or completely destroy the forum.
It sounded like you were agreeing with 5HM in that it was reasonable. I've never intended to say that Wube doesn't have the "right" to do anything they have been doing, but what sort of things that I'm willing to support. I also want to make it clear that there is nothing outstanding related to #266 material that would stop me from supporting Wube and Factorio if there were no other problems (i.e. the sticky issue was the removal of the axe to the extent of hand tooling being unavailable to modders; even though the related thread has been locked, I am satisfied as to its resolution.) Sorry for any misunderstandings.
I believe a final polishing of the game to prep the “new player experience” (sorry, I don’t think you like that term, but I don’t have a better one on hand at the moment)
Since it is the official term, go ahead and use it. I've been saying "new demo/campaign" to refer to that part of it.
and casual user base (which I fully expect to be the primary revenue source by far) will ensure a reasonably maintainable game that is fun for most players. Which equals a great reputation and revenue stream.

99% of the people who buy this game won’t know these forums exist or care that the game evolved over time.
Actually, that's impossible. Perhaps if you include past purchases in the number, maybe. I got a sales figure of 1.5 million copies somewhere, and for that to be 1% of the total, future sales would need to exceed 148.5 million copies, which is impossible in the current market; I don't think there are enough human beings playing video games yet. Including past purchases, maybe, since we're just shy of 400,000 posts in the forum, less than a third of the number of copies in circulation. Also, much beyond "know these forums exist" is required for the forums to be useful; it is very likely that a lot of people who have bought the game know of these forums, just never registered. Also, it's quite clear when I'm paying attention to the "browsing" bit at the bottom of view pages that most views are from unauthenticated lurkers, and several of the search engines have bot accounts so they don't show up as guests. I figure there are probably at least six times as many people who pop their heads in from time to time without ever registering.
And again, I was trying to point a few things out since I honestly feel that you’re experiencing a bit of a “victim mentality” point of view. I don’t mean any offense. I’m not trying to “kick you while you’re down” or anything. I think you’re feeling personally attacked or targeted by moderators shutting down threads.
None of this is true and I would like to avoid giving that impression. I'm actually rather pleased when seeing the more vitriolic responses because the arguments behind them tend to be weak and misleading, and that means I'm winning at the level of intellectual satisfaction.

One thing that Wube needs to remember is how new sales are generated for this game. Extant players think its great and tell all their friends, and there are probably a bunch who buy gift codes. New sales will suffer if this extant player base gets unhappy. It's probably a major driver when a new x.X.x version "goes stable", as a lot of players (including me) tend to avoid the experimental branch, especially when modding, if they don't want to deal with the bug-hunting scene. I recall somewhere being stroked the wrong way by Rythe with the Bartle gamer classification system, which is, putting a technical spin on it, utter garbage. A major point for the "explorer" type was the complete lack of correlation between exploring a game in a conventional sense, and exploring a game in a bug-hunting sense.

I believe it essential for the sales in the 0.17 period that the game have both a very strong vanilla impression, especially in the demo, when it hits stable, and it certainly doesn't need the axe for that. I also believe it needs to have a lot of working mods, and Wube hasn't been very nice to the modders over the last three months. Some of the mods have download numbers exceeding the forum post total, so it is obvious that a lot of people mod who never jump into forum discussions. If it looks like the game is stagnating or going downhill in these categories, the extant players will become reluctant to shill and gift the game, even if the game is still an incredible deal.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:08 pm
I'm actually rather pleased when seeing the more vitriolic responses because the arguments behind them tend to be weak and misleading, and that means I'm winning at the level of intellectual satisfaction.
Dude. It's not a game that we're playing so that you can win, so don't take that attitude toward it. People aren't putting arguments forth so that you can judge them as "weak and misleading," and then be happy about that. (perhaps read a bit on empathy.) We're having a discussion to try to make Factorio better. It's not about this whole argument. (and, in reality, I'd prefer if it was something I could reasonably call a discussion, not an argument.) The point is to do our best to make the best decision we can, collectively.

Quick edit: you say that you're trying to keep this contained and not spread it everywhere. What, then, is this?


----
I'm going to do my best to stay away from this topic for my own well-being, if I don't do a reasonable job of doing so, someone please quote this and yell at me. Thanks.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:02 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 pm
Dude. It's not a game that we're playing so that you can win, so don't take that attitude toward it.
This is a clear sign you don't know what "intellectually satisfaction" is. It's not about winning in an adversarial sense, it's about being knowledgeable and correct in understanding.
Quick edit: you say that you're trying to keep this contained and not spread it everywhere. What, then, is this?
That's my story thread, where I'm the only person writing anything substantial in any case.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by sparr » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:07 pm

Could you guys please take this to another thread so this one stops popping up as active for people who follow the FF threads?

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by TheRaph » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:20 pm

Ähm... Hello?
I'm just here pecause I've get a massage I've been quoted (thanks for that). But as far as I see you're a little bit off topic.
I can understand that removing of that pickaxe hurts you - I don't like it too (also that with 6 slots for AM1). And it is still hard to be objective on such an emotional topic .
And maybe the mod didn't act as perfect he should (maybe he is just a human people like everyone).
But all that is no reason for doing a private discussion about censorship in a forum thread about an FFF. Normally I like to read entire FFF thread but to have some pages with just discussion about censorship and the question of right is annoying.
Please get back to technical discussions and arguments why some mechanics should stay or leave.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by jodokus31 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:43 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:08 pm
I'm actually rather pleased when seeing the more vitriolic responses because the arguments behind them tend to be weak and misleading, and that means I'm winning at the level of intellectual satisfaction.
Reading these topics for a while now...
I wondered, what's your motivation, but this statement makes it obvious (Hoping, that it's only partly...)

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:18 am

jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:43 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:08 pm
I'm actually rather pleased when seeing the more vitriolic responses because the arguments behind them tend to be weak and misleading, and that means I'm winning at the level of intellectual satisfaction.
Reading these topics for a while now...
I wondered, what's your motivation, but this statement makes it obvious (Hoping, that it's only partly...)
I would like Wube to keep the integrity and mojo that it had when I first purchased Factorio, but I'm losing hope there.

I thought I said it a second time, but it's missing for some reason: I'd like to wait for the Wube guys to respond to the posts at viewtopic.php?p=392995#p392995 and viewtopic.php?p=393055#p393055 If y'all don't mind, thanks.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Tricorius » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:08 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:08 pm
Tricorius wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Ok, fine. One more, since this isn’t what I meant. They certainly have the right to delete accounts or completely destroy the forum.
It sounded like you were agreeing with 5HM in that it was reasonable.
Ah, I often suffer from poor quoting. So, my apologies. :)
Tricorius wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:16 pm
And again, I was trying to point a few things out since I honestly feel that you’re experiencing a bit of a “victim mentality” point of view. I don’t mean any offense. I’m not trying to “kick you while you’re down” or anything. I think you’re feeling personally attacked or targeted by moderators shutting down threads.
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:08 pm
None of this is true and I would like to avoid giving that impression.


Then again my apologies. It is uncertain to interpret any meaning behind text at times. I just wanted to ensure I didn’t cause any actual real-world harm with any of my comments. I often think I’m humorous and mean no ill will.

It is fun to engage in intellectual banter. But on occasion I have to remind myself that I’m talking to other humans. I’m a geek, social skills aren’t always my forte. ;)

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Klonan » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:25 am

Ok thats probably enough, any further off-topic posts will be deleted without notice,
This thread is for discussing what was presented in the FFF

If you wish to discuss censorship, moderatoration, closing of topics etc.
Feel free to make a thread here: viewforum.php?f=55

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by EstebanLB » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm

Another item that really needs to go is the iron chest. The wood chest can be produced in surpluss because you can use the excedent as fuel when you can build steel chests, and steel chests are not only last tier, they are aslo used in logistic chests as part of the recipe. SO I avoidn iron chests entirely and I'm sure most players do too. And along this line, we need an option to destroy an item too

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by mexmer » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:38 pm

EstebanLB wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm
Another item that really needs to go is the iron chest. The wood chest can be produced in surpluss because you can use the excedent as fuel when you can build steel chests, and steel chests are not only last tier, they are aslo used in logistic chests as part of the recipe. SO I avoidn iron chests entirely and I'm sure most players do too. And along this line, we need an option to destroy an item too
You can destroy item, just use gun.

Normally you put all unnecessary items in box, then destroy box with weapon. Grenades work too :) also flamethrowes :mrgreen:

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by EstebanLB » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:14 pm

mexmer wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:38 pm
EstebanLB wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm
Another item that really needs to go is the iron chest. The wood chest can be produced in surpluss because you can use the excedent as fuel when you can build steel chests, and steel chests are not only last tier, they are aslo used in logistic chests as part of the recipe. SO I avoidn iron chests entirely and I'm sure most players do too. And along this line, we need an option to destroy an item too
You can destroy item, just use gun.

Normally you put all unnecessary items in box, then destroy box with weapon. Grenades work too :) also flamethrowes :mrgreen:
My request is explicitly to stop using that workaround

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by jphill4life » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:26 pm

EstebanLB wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:14 pm
mexmer wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:38 pm
EstebanLB wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm
Another item that really needs to go is the iron chest. The wood chest can be produced in surpluss because you can use the excedent as fuel when you can build steel chests, and steel chests are not only last tier, they are aslo used in logistic chests as part of the recipe. SO I avoidn iron chests entirely and I'm sure most players do too. And along this line, we need an option to destroy an item too
You can destroy item, just use gun.

Normally you put all unnecessary items in box, then destroy box with weapon. Grenades work too :) also flamethrowes :mrgreen:
My request is explicitly to stop using that workaround
That isn't a work around, that's a feature!

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Matthias_Wlkp » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:51 pm

Possible fix would be a "Garbage Requester Chest", which you could place on railroad tracks...

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by EstebanLB » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:34 pm

Matthias_Wlkp wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:51 pm
Possible fix would be a "Garbage Requester Chest", which you could place on railroad tracks...
I was thinking on something separate from the logistic system, and bindable with a hotkey and the like. At the begining, the pistol, old chests, burner machines and so on are discarded with frecuency, and dropping them on the ground can contaminate belts and chest as the factory grows

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Avezo » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:38 pm

just a generic 'recycler' entity would solve a lot of above problems.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by vanatteveldt » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Avezo wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:38 pm
just a generic 'recycler' entity would solve a lot of above problems.
It's quite easy to allow furnaces to smelt most of the 'obsolete' entities like pickaxe, iron chests, pistols and the like, much the same as wooden boxes and poles can be used as fuel. I made a mod way back when that added recipes for it. Game wise it doesn't add a lot, but it scratches your OCD if you're the sensitive type :)

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