Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Cyonic » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:30 pm

I'd just like to add my support to the removing the axe from the game. Its an utterly redundant game play mechanic for factorio and I've only every felt frustration and annoyance in relation to the axe. When I'm in the flow designing and working on my factory and my axe breaks it interrupts my flow. Its a minor nuisance but once described in the FF I can't wait for it to be removed so I never have to deal with it again.

Another nuisance is left over iron axes that serve no point, it makes my OCD (colloquially used) itch. I dislike having random worthless items in my inventory in the midgame.

I'd like to make an appeal; let the pick axe go. Work with the mods on implementing a modding solution and then let it go peacefully.
This is not a democracy where campaigning will get your pick axe back in the base game. That's good, its an independent game studio, they don't have to cater to you individual wants. If you can not deal with this, as it appears featherwinglove cannot, then leave. Stick with 0.16, everybody knows its a perfectly solid game as is, and let this tired discussion go.

I would like if the devs make a final statement in regards to this issue and then close all topics relating the pick axe. Arguments are now being merely regurgitated over and over again with neither side understanding the other.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm

Cyonic wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:30 pm
I would like if the devs make a final statement in regards to this issue and then close all topics relating the pick axe. Arguments are now being merely regurgitated over and over again with neither side understanding the other.
Sadly, they have. You say otherwise here, but I believe free speech and informed discussion is far more important than gameplay, and proroguing discussion of these issues is a move that I cannot support. The removal of the axe is nothing compared to this disgusting and insulting censorious behaviour. As a result, I have stopped recommending Factorio and no longer support Wube Software.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Klonan » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:28 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm
The removal of the axe is nothing compared to this disgusting and insulting censorious behaviour.
Closing topics when they become off-topic is not the same as censorship.

You are welcome to continue discussing the axe removal and other changes in the appropriate topics, such as this FFF thread, and this topic which is more focused on the axe.
Cyonic wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:30 pm
I would like if the devs make a final statement in regards to this issue and then close all topics relating the pick axe.
Nothing in Factorio is ever 'final', so making any final statements is always a bad decision,
For now I don't believe anybody in the team has been sufficiently moved or motivated by any of the arguments to change what we have presented in the FFF.

Something may change in the future, and we will continue to listen to feedback on this topic, and all others that our players post on the forum,
But for now, and at least in 0.17, the changes we presented will remain.

We're not immune to making the wrong decision,
So I don't think its productive to close all the discussion, akin to saying: "We are right you are wrong now shut up",
Over time and through player testing, people may come with fresh and new perspectives for us to consider,
And we may very well have a reason to amend some of the changes we have made

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 pm

Klonan wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:28 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm
The removal of the axe is nothing compared to this disgusting and insulting censorious behaviour.
Closing topics when they become off-topic is not the same as censorship.
In the case under discussion, the discussion of modding of axes and mining hardness was shut down. That goes well beyond mere moderation. Also, it doesn't matter what you think, if you can't offer any suitable justification for this deplorable behaviour, cannot see it as destructive to your ends and the relationship with the community, and have no desire to apologize for it, I can't feel in the slightest bit comfortable with Wube Software, especially the way I've seen you toot your ethical horn in the more distant past, and also very recently in private messages sent to me.
Klonan wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:28 pm
So I don't think its productive to close all the discussion, akin to saying: "We are right you are wrong now shut up",
But that is exactly what you have done in the modding thread I linked above. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=64142 for your convenience. Also, you need to realize that it doesn't need to be productive in a technical sense to be productive in a community sense; or at the very least realize how destructive it is to shut down the speech of your community members, please.

You have also done exactly this with a new user's concerns regarding the automatic crash reporting and you shut him down. Not once, but twice. Before I found out about this, I was quite satisfied with automatic crash reporting privacy and security. However, words mean less than action and your behaviour has raised my doubts to the point where I have turned off crash reporting.

I know I've gone off topic here, but frankly these are topics you are not allowing people to discuss anywhere else. Are you sure this is moderation? Or is it really as it looks from my perspective: Has Wube Software has lost its mojo?

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by steinio » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:26 am

Yeah Wube is worse then Stalin. /s


You should considering to calm down.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:59 am

The hardest test for any liberal community is someone like featherwinglove. The ones who do censor stuff, have so much an easier time dealing with ankle-biters and trolls...

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:26 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:59 am
The hardest test for any liberal community is someone like featherwinglove. The ones who do censor stuff, have so much an easier time dealing with ankle-biters and trolls...
The most interesting direction this conversation can take, and I have this feeling it's fairly likely, is that you and Cyonic will find Klonan unite with me against this position. I don't think the issue in his mind is whether this form of censorship is wrong, it's whether Wube is doing it or not.

I just hope we can all return to discussing actual gameplay issues, including how to mod the pickaxe back in and whether this nebulous "resource-category" or whatever it is beats mining hardness as a proper mechanic, sooner rather than later.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Koub » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 pm
Klonan wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:28 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm
The removal of the axe is nothing compared to this disgusting and insulting censorious behaviour.
Closing topics when they become off-topic is not the same as censorship.
In the case under discussion, the discussion of modding of axes and mining hardness was shut down. That goes well beyond mere moderation.
These are a few posts I found where the discussion about the pickaxe removal where there was no discussion before.

viewtopic.php?p=391595#p391595
viewtopic.php?p=390557#p390557
viewtopic.php?p=391343#p391343
viewtopic.php?p=390588#p390588
viewtopic.php?p=388638#p388638

You're not a victim of censorship. You set this forum on fire on purpose. I think the devs have been very cool and moderate in their interactions with the few revolutionaries who literally flooded everywhere possible their disapproval for this change. Please quit repeating yourself, and get another bone to gnaw.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Cyonic » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:17 am

Klonan wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:28 pm
featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:23 pm
The removal of the axe is nothing compared to this disgusting and insulting censorious behaviour.
Closing topics when they become off-topic is not the same as censorship.

You are welcome to continue discussing the axe removal and other changes in the appropriate topics, such as this FFF thread, and this topic which is more focused on the axe.
Cyonic wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:30 pm
I would like if the devs make a final statement in regards to this issue and then close all topics relating the pick axe.
Nothing in Factorio is ever 'final', so making any final statements is always a bad decision,
For now I don't believe anybody in the team has been sufficiently moved or motivated by any of the arguments to change what we have presented in the FFF.

Something may change in the future, and we will continue to listen to feedback on this topic, and all others that our players post on the forum,
But for now, and at least in 0.17, the changes we presented will remain.

We're not immune to making the wrong decision,
So I don't think its productive to close all the discussion, akin to saying: "We are right you are wrong now shut up",
Over time and through player testing, people may come with fresh and new perspectives for us to consider,
And we may very well have a reason to amend some of the changes we have made
You are more even handed then me, it was late last night as I was reading these posts and tiredness got the better of me which was reflected in the tone of the post and the harsh suggestion of shutting down all discussion.
I do stand by my original statement that everything has been repeated ad nauseam by featherwinglove in multiple different topics. Let the pick axe go and focus on trying to mod it back in. Let it die a peaceful death and resurrect it in your own game.

As to the censorship rants, those are silly and stupid. This is a forum run by a gaming company, they have every right to moderate it as they see fit, including removing or merging posts. Especially if the topic has been bleeding all over the place...

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:32 am

Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
These are a few posts I found where the discussion about the pickaxe removal where there was no discussion before.
Do you seriously expect me to believe that having places where censorship is not happening is an excuse for doing it in other places?
Last edited by featherwinglove on Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am

Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
These are a few posts I found where the discussion about the pickaxe removal where there was no discussion before.
Yeah, about that "no discussion before" part... *ahem* ...there was axe-related discussion before in the first two threads.
Wow, what impressive skill at noticing off-topic discussion buddy! :lol: You linked to the second last post on page 9.

I just took a casual scroll back through that thread, which was easy since you linked a post that had a freaking quote block in it! The first mention I find is about there:

The first clearly FFF#266 mention is here:
TheRaph wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:03 pm
But I do not like the Idea of having all 6 ingredients slots free in assembling machine.

I'd hoped you would decide in a different way - but as I see your decision stays. I think a little bit of speedup and some module-slots are not worth of upgrading.
That's back over five pages, near the top of the fourth page.

Next one's near the bottom of the fifth page.
roothorick wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:53 pm
TheRaph wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:03 pm
But I do not like the Idea of having all 6 ingredients slots free in assembling machine.
In the FFF that brought it up, pretty much the entire community spoke out against it and Wube seemed to simply ignore the outcry. It's definitely a strange outlier for a team that's at least been transparent and interacted with the community on everything.
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
viewtopic.php?p=390557#p390557
Now this one's particularly remarkable, Koub: It's, uh, definitely not the first one in that thread... ...yeah... it's AFTER THE ONE YOU DELETED!!
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
viewtopic.php?p=391343#p391343
Reason he puts it this way, I'm sure, since if he put it this way:
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:04 pm
I'm very curious how they're going to rewrite First Steps-01 without the axe in such a way that it doesn't leave prospective players scratching their heads. Is that "new player experience" a direct quote from somewhere? That (even post-FFF#266) doesn't sound like the sort of language our devs would use, and considering that so many devs from AAA to low-effort walking simulator indies have given Jim Sterling cause to pronounce the phrase in the way that he has (I can't find a sample with a relatively simple search), this would be quite concerning.
Does it sound like I'm trying to set the place on fire? It's actually me being incredibly stupid because I forgot or missed FFF#241 and #257 detailing the new campaign/demo, and that got pointed out to me almost immediately.
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
viewtopic.php?p=390588#p390588
Perhaps this is a favor to me, since, if one were to click on the link above instead of reading it like this:
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:57 pm
Doctor_Goose made a mod specifically so people could try it out. I disagree with the change because the ingredient limit progression made an interesting gameplay mechanic. It doesn't have to be realistic or accurately reflect the now mysterious concept of "recipe complexity" to be a good gameplay feature. I disagree with all of the changes announced in FFF#266, Mining Hardness removal because it overcomplicates what modders need to do to gate their technologies, and may disable the ability to hand-mine new ores and entities you weren't able to at the start of the game. The worst is removing the axe to the extent that modders can't even put it back. The update seems to reflect a sea change in the attitude of the development team, that they're MGTOW no longer caring about the players who put the food on their tables and the modders who pile on layers of free content. The discussion on the announcement thread is disheartening, and would certainly put me off buying the game if I were new to it today.
It isn't so apparent that the OP is asking specifically about FFF#266, and I'm linking him to the General Discussion axe thread, and to the FFF#266 thread here, where he can jump in if he likes.

The last one is pretty straightforward:
featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:32 am
This is what's pissing people off regarding the removal of the axe, to the extent that we can't even mod it back in.
I've cut a rather long post down in the way absolutely the most favorable to Koub's dubious point here. Context link to this thread, not an invitation to light the other one on fire. "This" was the attitude of the guy I was responding to, an attitude that everyone should be deprived of an idea that he doesn't like, which brings me to my final point:
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am
You're not a victim of censorship.
The true victims of censorship are those who are deprived of the information they would have liked to have access to, and the ability to speak in response to it.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 am

Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:17 am
As to the censorship rants, those are silly and stupid. This is a forum run by a gaming company, they have every right to moderate it as they see fit, including removing or merging posts. Especially if the topic has been bleeding all over the place...
That doesn't mean it's good for their business, audience, or reputation. Most of the moderation I've seen is actually pretty good. It was much better two years ago. Now, some of it is rather questionable: Fan Art has a stickied story that hasn't been updated in 32 months while normal posts younger than that in their entirety have been locked for necroposting. I've also seen new posts merged with really old posts to the point where I have mistaken it for necroposting. So, other than the standby weapon for coping with criticism that is part of the AAA video game firestorm that is helping to drag the entire NASDAQ index down, there are certainly other ways moderation can be improved around here.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by 5thHorseman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 am

A private company cannot be reasonably accused of censorship, any more than a battleship can be accused of swimming. While some of the mechanics are similar, it's NOT THE SAME THING.

You are free to lambaste (truthfully of course else it's slander) them on the other 99.9(repeating)% of the Internet. You are free to tell everybody you know not to buy the game (though I hope that gets them to look into it and in fact causes them to buy it). You are even free to post here how you don't like their decisions. And you have. Ad nauseam.

But here, on this one website, Wube has every right to do whatever they want. They can shut the entire site down. They can ban you, delete your account, and wipe all of your posts. The fact that they haven't shows who here is being unreasonable.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:41 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 am
A private company cannot be reasonably accused of censorship, ... They can shut the entire site down. They can ban you, delete your account, and wipe all of your posts. The fact that they haven't shows who here is being unreasonable.
...well, all I can say is you have a very funny definition of "reasonable".

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by 5thHorseman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:45 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:41 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 am
A private company cannot be reasonably accused of censorship, ... They can shut the entire site down. They can ban you, delete your account, and wipe all of your posts. The fact that they haven't shows who here is being unreasonable.
...well, all I can say is you have a very funny definition of "reasonable".
I agree. If it were my site I'd have banned you by now so I think that would be quite reasonable. I should probably have said they were being amazingly, super-humanly nice.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Cyonic » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:22 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 am
Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:17 am
As to the censorship rants, those are silly and stupid. This is a forum run by a gaming company, they have every right to moderate it as they see fit, including removing or merging posts. Especially if the topic has been bleeding all over the place...
That doesn't mean it's good for their business, audience, or reputation. Most of the moderation I've seen is actually pretty good. It was much better two years ago. Now, some of it is rather questionable: Fan Art has a stickied story that hasn't been updated in 32 months while normal posts younger than that in their entirety have been locked for necroposting. I've also seen new posts merged with really old posts to the point where I have mistaken it for necroposting. So, other than the standby weapon for coping with criticism that is part of the AAA video game firestorm that is helping to drag the entire NASDAQ index down, there are certainly other ways moderation can be improved around here.
Bringing...the...entire...NASDAQ index...down...Video games are doing this? Really?
And you link that to the moderation on this board; that is way WAY over the top.

Even comparing factorio moderation and player interaction with AAA games is insulting to factorio and their clear dedication to communicating with their player base.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:39 am

Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:22 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 am
Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:17 am
As to the censorship rants, those are silly and stupid. This is a forum run by a gaming company, they have every right to moderate it as they see fit, including removing or merging posts. Especially if the topic has been bleeding all over the place...
That doesn't mean it's good for their business, audience, or reputation. Most of the moderation I've seen is actually pretty good. It was much better two years ago. Now, some of it is rather questionable: Fan Art has a stickied story that hasn't been updated in 32 months while normal posts younger than that in their entirety have been locked for necroposting. I've also seen new posts merged with really old posts to the point where I have mistaken it for necroposting. So, other than the standby weapon for coping with criticism that is part of the AAA video game firestorm that is helping to drag the entire NASDAQ index down, there are certainly other ways moderation can be improved around here.
Bringing...the...entire...NASDAQ index...down...Video games are doing this? Really?
And you link that to the moderation on this board; that is way WAY over the top.

Even comparing factorio moderation and player interaction with AAA games is insulting to factorio and their clear dedication to communicating with their player base.
Wow, I vastly overestimated your literacy level! I therefore am not sure if I can explain this in a way you can properly understand. The NASDAQ index is big tech, things like Google and Apple, and AAA gaming is a part of it. AAA gaming are companies like Ubisoft, Bethesda, Blizzard/Activision, and Electronic Arts. Censorship is a major contributor to this in AAA gaming. This is not a good example for Wube to follow.

How are you doing so far?

Edit: I forgot to mention the part where AAA gaming stocks are crashing right now. They were overvalued during the loot box and MTX bonanza of last year. And now, that bubble has burst, and revenues are dropping. The worst affected AAA gaming companies are down about 50% from their 2018 peaks, and the whole index is down about 12%.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Cyonic » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:51 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:39 am
Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:22 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:13 am
Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:17 am
As to the censorship rants, those are silly and stupid. This is a forum run by a gaming company, they have every right to moderate it as they see fit, including removing or merging posts. Especially if the topic has been bleeding all over the place...
That doesn't mean it's good for their business, audience, or reputation. Most of the moderation I've seen is actually pretty good. It was much better two years ago. Now, some of it is rather questionable: Fan Art has a stickied story that hasn't been updated in 32 months while normal posts younger than that in their entirety have been locked for necroposting. I've also seen new posts merged with really old posts to the point where I have mistaken it for necroposting. So, other than the standby weapon for coping with criticism that is part of the AAA video game firestorm that is helping to drag the entire NASDAQ index down, there are certainly other ways moderation can be improved around here.
Bringing...the...entire...NASDAQ index...down...Video games are doing this? Really?
And you link that to the moderation on this board; that is way WAY over the top.

Even comparing factorio moderation and player interaction with AAA games is insulting to factorio and their clear dedication to communicating with their player base.
Wow, I vastly overestimated your literacy level! I therefore am not sure if I can explain this in a way you can properly understand. The NASDAQ index is big tech, things like Google and Apple, and AAA gaming is a part of it. AAA gaming are companies like Ubisoft, Bethesda, Blizzard/Activision, and Electronic Arts. Censorship is a major contributor to this in AAA gaming. This is not a good example for Wube to follow.

How are you doing so far?

Edit: I forgot to mention the part where AAA gaming stocks are crashing right now. They were overvalued during the loot box and MTX bonanza of last year. And now, that bubble has burst, and revenues are dropping. The worst affected AAA gaming companies are down about 50% from their 2018 peaks, and the whole index is down about 12%.
AAA gaming are indeed a part of it, to implicate that the entire index is being brought down because of them is absurd considering far bigger companies have seen large drops as well.

Regardless my main point is that comparing factorio to AAA games is deeply insulting to factorio. I'm not here to argue stocks.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:07 am

Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:51 am
Regardless my main point is that comparing factorio to AAA games is deeply insulting to factorio. I'm not here to argue stocks.
It should be. I'm hoping they will once again start proving that it actually is.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Cyonic » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:17 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:07 am
Cyonic wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:51 am
Regardless my main point is that comparing factorio to AAA games is deeply insulting to factorio. I'm not here to argue stocks.
It should be. I'm hoping they will once again start proving that it actually is.
They don't have anything to prove to you.

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