Struggling with train station layout / signals

[DanielHall15]

So, it's Daniel again, the guy that can't do anything right.

In my current game, I have included trains for the first time. My initial base was short of iron ore and once I was able to clear a cluster of four worms from a huge iron deposit further east, I expanded there with a mining enterprise. Some 300 squares away, I was too lazy to lay several belts or take on the expense of an express belt, and tackled trains. Set up a line with loops at either end, and got that running. There was also some oil further to the east of the iron ore, and I added a second line to grab that and haul it to my chemical plants.

Now that initial oil production is tailing off. There is a bigger oil field in the other direction and I went to grab that. However, due to space constraints, the two oil lines will have to share a common station to drop off the goodies.

And here the problems start.



So, I do know a thing or two about railway block working. Somehow this does not translate into Factorio at all. Once I got the second line's train running, it ploughed through a green signal, right into the first line's train in the dropoff station.



Once the first line train left, swooped around into the takein station to collect empty barrels, the second line train followed it without even stopping and rammed right through it.

Since trains don't exactly come cheap, I need a solution for this.

Obviously block working in the game does not work like I had the impression it would. When placing the signal, it shows a short stretch of track with yellow arrows. I assumed this was the signal's protected block. If there's another train in the block, the signal flips to red to protect the train in the block and the second train has to stop. Like I said, obviously this ain't so. I have no clue how it actually works in the game, and the wiki doesn't help an inch. The articles on rail systems are all written pretty confusingly...

If somebody has a smart idea how to rebuild the station into two so that the lines won't cross each other, I'd take that suggestion too...

[Turtle]

I don't see any signals in the screenshots. You need two signals to create a block. The signals must be placed on the right side of the track, just like the stations.

[ssilk]

Maybe you found a bug? Can you provide a save, cause from this pics I can't figure out, where all the signals are placed.

But if it is like I think, then this setup looks a bit strange: your "circle" is only two blocks: Block 1 is from the train stop to the signal in the east-south (between leaving and entering the circle from the south) and it continues to the south, as far as visible. The second block is from the signal back to the train stops, continuing onto the north.

@circle: I see signals, but not sure.

[Turtle]

@circle: I see signals, but not sure.

omg, i must be blind... I see the signals now haha!

[DanielHall15]

There are signals, but I think I missed at least one (on the northeastern corner of the loop), but that still doesn't explain why the signal didn't protect the train in the dropoff station...

[Mangledpork]

Try moving up the signal that should have been red to after where those two pieces of track met. With that slightly weird loop you've got there might be a gap that means the whole system is one block or something. Try moving signals around and seeing what happens and you should get a better feel for the system.

[DanielHall15]

Maybe you found a bug?

No, it's always Daniel's fault.

Try moving up the signal that should have been red to after where those two pieces of track met. With that slightly weird loop you've got there might be a gap that means the whole system is one block or something. Try moving signals around and seeing what happens and you should get a better feel for the system.

My main mistake with the signals was to only think about the routes that trains would be actually taking, and not thinking about all possible connections. F.e. I did not put a signal onto the exit loop to the southeast, since only one train would ever be on that route. However, that put the signals in the actual station to red once that train was on his remote loop, and the northern train would be held in the station for ages.

Even worse: there was a connection between the southern oil loop and the iron loop at the solar farm (you may spot the area in the second pic, but the link is removed already, also: inefficient station design!), so even the IRON train would block the oil dropff station's signal...

But yeah, the signals. I now dropped them seemingly everywhere (first pic).







Of course, once I got the trains runnin' again, they instantly filled my oil tanks and all the barrels got blocked up and ... see, it's always Daniel's fault. Daniel sucks.

Seems to be running smoothie now, though.



Btw, Mangledpork, I failed to find the second part of your train tutorial on Youtube. Is it up yet? Is it Daniel's fault? Please don't say it is Daniel's fault.

[Mangledpork]

No, that's my fault. I like to make sure I have a complete understanding of a system before doing a tutorial, and signals are such a complex thing that I'm still getting the hang of certain aspects. I'm getting there though, and I've got a pretty cool system with 4 stations and 5 trains running on it and even a shunting yard (though I'm having trouble finding anything to actually shunt in it) and stuff like that.
I may end up splitting signals into 2 parts to make it more manageable.

[DanielHall15]

Well, my system here has stopped working altogether now. The northern train persistently gives a "no path" return now that I added another loop to mine copper. I have to make the northern oil and the copper train share some stretch of rails because of the watery confines here, and although all rails are correctly aligned (I can drive the train manually without issues), it refuses to run now.

So, with no more copper available, I will ditch another 15-hour effort and restart anew and can only hope to be less dumb this time.

[Mangledpork]

Make sure the stations and signals are all on the right side, putting the on the left is a common cause of no path errors.
Also, maybe you'll get some help from this guide here: http://imgur.com/a/zG13U#0
I've been using it to help me put together the signal tutorial.

[Mangledpork]

Also a train may not pass a signal on it's left unless there is also one on it's right, I believe.

[DanielHall15]

Also a train may not pass a signal on it's left unless there is also one on it's right, I believe.

Problem solved!



The circled signals were all just going one way, facing the middle part, before. By the time I placed the last one the oil train almost took my arms and legs off as it blazed through the forest.

Thanks a lot!

[DanielHall15]

Seriously though, no offense to who did it, but the block working section in the wiki is so badly written ... there is everything in there, which I now realize that I was told what my issue was, but it fails to actually tell you HOW to build a working system. It's a swath of text with lots of bold, and the content is all in there, but it fails to bring that content and knowledge across to somebody who's having an issue.

[Mangledpork]

I've got part 2 of 3 half done now, and I've covered all the basic signal uses I can think of. The problem is that there are so many different setups that can be done that I'll always miss something.

[DanielHall15]

Well, still not working.

I noticed that the train from oil line 1 is occasionally running rampant all over the system, running north (loaded with oil barrels), making a loop and coming back down to the oil dropoff, but it races straight through it, loops around (at a speed defying certain physical laws) and stopping at the barrel takein station.

Only oil train 1 does that, the others don't. The reason should be the following:

Once oil train 1 enteres the loop to drop off the oil barrels, it finds the oil dropoff station blocked by oil train 2. It then skips the destination and instead of waiting patiently, it skips the station entirely, takes the shortest route that will lead it away (ploughing through the barrel takein station) and then heads north, where it loops around and returns. Oil train 2 can't do that because it HAS to wait when oil train 1 is in the dropoff once oil train 2 arrives.

This may well be a bug however, the behavior seems rather consistent and I spent about 90 minutes now a) watching it and b) cleaning up the mess when three trains tried to pass each other in that short common track piece which is also used by my copper train. My lackluster station design is just the icing on the cake...

Argh, mayhem!

[DanielHall15]

Dumb question. Why did I not use smart inserters in the oil dropoff station?

Initially, the inner loop wasn't even there. I wanted one station to drop off barrels AND reload empty barrels. It didn't work because one battery of inserters shoveled empty barrels into the train and the other battery of inserters shoveled it right back out on the other side... that's where I put up the second station and the inner loop.

Just why? Smart inserters would have done the f$%&ing job!!

This is pretty mind-numbing now. I suck. The whole station could easily be redesigned to incorporate a combined dropoff/reload barrels station for either line, and they would only have to cross ONCE on the exit.

Ah, Daniel, you're such a f$%&ing retard!

[DerivePi]

Some of my "rules of thumb" regarding trains (Dumb Answer).
- Pick a rotation and stick with it. Either run trains counterclockwise on loops (the right way ) or clockwise. When you lay down 2-lane tracks, the signals will all be to the outside (or inside).
- Every decision point should have a signal before it. Ie when a track splits, provide a signal just before the split. If desired, provide another set of signals a full train length after, on both branches.
- For multi-directional circles, let trains own the circle until they leave it. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =18&t=5434 for further discussion and speculation.
- For multi-lane tracks, pick a line of demarcation and put a signal at each track on that line. For instance, if you have 4 lanes of tracks, provide at least 4 signals (8 if you allow trains to travel in both directions).
- When you have multiple tracks, don't allow trains to travel in both directions.
- Leave space for signals. Especially at spots where space is limited.

[ssilk]

Seriously though, no offense to who did it, but the block working section in the wiki is so badly written ... there is everything in there, which I now realize that I was told what my issue was, but it fails to actually tell you HOW to build a working system. It's a swath of text with lots of bold, and the content is all in there, but it fails to bring that content and knowledge across to somebody who's having an issue.

Change it. Its a wiki. wrote it somehow in... May? When there where thousands of questions about it. For me it was clear to rewrite that, when I have time. That may take some time.

[DanielHall15]

As soon as I can keep my trains from wrecking, then, I might. As long as I have to manually drive trains to untangle them, though ...

[Mangledpork]

Have a look at this thread.
It's got some different rail network designs.
It's a very good idea to have a two-line system with loops at junctions to allow trains to pass through without the system clogging. And getting a standardised station setup is a huge help because it keeps everything super neat.
I'd show you my setup but I always mess up posting images and files.