[Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

[RobotMonk]

It seems stone walls take more damage from asteroids than other structures in space!

I have parked my space platform around Fulgora, and there are a few walls in the front, but also a lot of repair packs in the hub.
Unfortunately, it seems my walls get "one-shot", along with the foundations under them, while other structures take a bit of damage and get repaired just fine. Honestly it would be fine, except the walls do mention having impact resistance, while other structures do not ...

The ghosts that appear are showing 340/350 health.

My space platform is doing fine, repair packs are very good, however the platform foundation is quite the cost !

Thank you.

(yes I don't have any ammo anymore, I thought the repairs packs would be enough)

[Rseding91]

Thanks for the report however there is no special logic for how asteroids to damage. It is identical for every entity type on the platform - walls, turrets, the hub itself - are all treated equally.

[RobotMonk]

Thanks for your answer, unfortunately asteroids don't deal 400+ damage to any other entity, ie inserters for example only take 50 damage from a full medium asteroid. There is a clear difference, hence I do believe there is a bug. It was no understatement when I said the walls are getting one shot...

[Muche]

I made a small test range, then hit each entity type with a small metallic asteroid (in editor mode).

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Copy blueprint

Here is the resulting damage:

AsteroidImpactRange-alldmg.jpg (140.31 KiB) Viewed 2565 times

Each asteroid dealt 40 damage. Most entities took all the damage except for some that let part of the damage through to the underlying platform:

AsteroidImpactRange-platformdmg.jpg (136 KiB) Viewed 2565 times

They were: wall, pipe, pipe to ground, pump, radar.
What they share is impact resistance: 45/60%, 30%, 40%, 30%, 30%.
Also note that the damage to the platform under an entity is proportional to the percentage resistance of the entity. In particular, a platform under a wall has taken very similar damage to an uncovered platform.

What seems to happen is a wall, via its high impact resistance, redirects almost all of incoming damage to the platform under it.
Which makes walls the worst ablative armor there is and higher qualities walls might not matter at all, as a platform under a wall gets destroyed before the wall, as OP observed.

[Wiwiweb]

Bumping this thread. Belts can defend against asteroids better than walls, that cannot be intended behaviour.

Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-16-55.png (268.31 KiB) Viewed 2221 times

Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-17-09.png (171.69 KiB) Viewed 2221 times

Throwing a medium asteroid. on_entity_damaged event tells me the incoming damage is 100 impact damage.

• Belt: Goes down to 50/150 health.
• Wall. Damage is reduced to 22 thanks to impact resistance. The remaining 78 damage seems to be propagated to the foundation tile! The tile dies, taking the wall along with it.

Using a small asteroid (40 damage) we can see that the wall takes 1 damage and the tile below the wall gets damaged for ~39 damage.

[Rseding91]

Ok, I see the issue now. Sorry everyone, I wasn’t understanding what was happen but the latest post shows the issue clearly.

[computeraddict]

Bumping this thread. Belts can defend against asteroids better than walls, that cannot be intended behaviour.

Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-16-55.png
Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-17-09.png

Throwing a medium asteroid. on_entity_damaged event tells me the incoming damage is 100 impact damage.

• Belt: Goes down to 50/150 health.
• Wall. Damage is reduced to 22 thanks to impact resistance. The remaining 78 damage seems to be propagated to the foundation tile! The tile dies, taking the wall along with it.

Using a small asteroid (40 damage) we can see that the wall takes 1 damage and the tile below the wall gets damaged for ~39 damage.

A use for legendary belts!

I'm guessing that the game says "100 damage to your tile. How much does the entity on it take? The tile takes the rest," assuming that the entity not taking the full damage means it died.

[Muche]

I came to understand that the wall nerf was due to a beta player who built long platform full of walls without any turrets.
A wall redirecting incoming damage to the platform under it was a solution to make that strategy not viable, thus "it's working as designed / not a bug".
I think that solution also hurts casual players the most, who have reasonable amounts of walls, and expect them to perform better as shield than belts.

Also I believe there was later change to limit the maximum length of a platform that also mitigates against the wall-only strategy.

My idea was to not allow repairing and/or building walls while the platform is moving. This has the potential to mitigate against the wall-only strategy, while not hurting reasonable walls of casual players. It could also be applied for the reactive armor, i.e. land mines.
But I haven't investigated/simulated it yet.

[Rseding91]

Thanks for the example showing what I was missing. This is now fixed for the next release.

Before it was working like this:

• Wall has 350 health
• Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
• Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
• Asteroid records "33 damage used to impact wall" and reduces its remaining damage to 67
• Asteroid hits the platform tile with 67 damage
• Platform tile has 50 health and dies
• Asteroid records "50 damage used to destroy tile" and reduces its remaining damage to 17
• Asteroid hits next tile available and does 17 damage to it

After it will work like this:

• Wall has 350 health
• Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
• Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
• Asteroid records "33 damage was used to damage the wall" but it didn't die so it used all 100 damage and reduces its remaining damage to 0 and dies

[MrNukealizer]

After it will work like this:

• Wall has 350 health
• Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
• Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
• Asteroid records "33 damage was used to damage the wall" but it didn't die so it used all 100 damage and reduces its remaining damage to 0 and dies

What if the wall has 30 health so it does die? Would that leave the asteroid with 5 remaining damage to lightly damage the tile or 70 to destroy it and hit the next thing? The way you worded it makes it sound like the wall not dying is key to damage reduction working properly.

[boskid]

There is a reverse step so if 30 health was removed before entity died, amount of damage required for such effect is computed and this value is subtracted from remaining damage.

[computeraddict]

And this will be why we can't have stone in space

[BlueTemplar]

Oh wow, this is an enormous change to early space balance !
My 2nd design went from barely surviving its first round-trip to Fulgora to almost invulnerable even when ammo is over !

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

Copy blueprint
(Physical Damage and Shooting Speed both at 4.)
I can't believe I didn't notice that walls were under-performing that badly !!

I came to understand that the wall nerf was due to a beta player who built long platform full of walls without any turrets.
A wall redirecting incoming damage to the platform under it was a solution to make that strategy not viable, thus "it's working as designed / not a bug".
I think that solution also hurts casual players the most, who have reasonable amounts of walls, and expect them to perform better as shield than belts.

Also I believe there was later change to limit the maximum length of a platform that also mitigates against the wall-only strategy.

My idea was to not allow repairing and/or building walls while the platform is moving. This has the potential to mitigate against the wall-only strategy, while not hurting reasonable walls of casual players. It could also be applied for the reactive armor, i.e. land mines.
But I haven't investigated/simulated it yet.

Yeah, I see, good luck balancing walls in space...

One mitigation that might work is to have walls add additional platform mass ??
(But only walls, to keep things simple.)

P.S.: A more radical solution might be to just forbid sending walls to space ??

[weareryan]

Thanks for the example showing what I was missing. This is now fixed for the next release.

Before it was working like this:

• Wall has 350 health
• Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
• Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
• Asteroid records "33 damage used to impact wall" and reduces its remaining damage to 67
• Asteroid hits the platform tile with 67 damage
• Platform tile has 50 health and dies
• Asteroid records "50 damage used to destroy tile" and reduces its remaining damage to 17
• Asteroid hits next tile available and does 17 damage to it

After it will work like this:

• Wall has 350 health
• Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
• Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
• Asteroid records "33 damage was used to damage the wall" but it didn't die so it used all 100 damage and reduces its remaining damage to 0 and dies

Awesome! Thank you. I also assumed the insta kill on walls was some kind of intentional balance thing.

In reply to another post, while this does make walls a lot stronger remember that you cannot recover those asteroids for fuel or other materials. So you still need to shoot them if you want chunks.

[BlueTemplar]

Yeah, but there's always at least some chunks floating around (though not much on orbits outside Nauvis), so that you would have to make a pretty extreme design for a ship to get completely stuck on a inner planet ?