[Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

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RobotMonk
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[Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by RobotMonk »

It seems stone walls take more damage from asteroids than other structures in space!

I have parked my space platform around Fulgora, and there are a few walls in the front, but also a lot of repair packs in the hub.
Unfortunately, it seems my walls get "one-shot", along with the foundations under them, while other structures take a bit of damage and get repaired just fine. Honestly it would be fine, except the walls do mention having impact resistance, while other structures do not ...

The ghosts that appear are showing 340/350 health.

My space platform is doing fine, repair packs are very good, however the platform foundation is quite the cost !

Thank you.

(yes I don't have any ammo anymore, I thought the repairs packs would be enough)
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Rseding91
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by Rseding91 »

Thanks for the report however there is no special logic for how asteroids to damage. It is identical for every entity type on the platform - walls, turrets, the hub itself - are all treated equally.
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by RobotMonk »

Thanks for your answer, unfortunately asteroids don't deal 400+ damage to any other entity, ie inserters for example only take 50 damage from a full medium asteroid. There is a clear difference, hence I do believe there is a bug. It was no understatement when I said the walls are getting one shot...
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by Muche »

I made a small test range, then hit each entity type with a small metallic asteroid (in editor mode).


Here is the resulting damage:
AsteroidImpactRange-alldmg.jpg
AsteroidImpactRange-alldmg.jpg (140.31 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
Each asteroid dealt 40 damage. Most entities took all the damage except for some that let part of the damage through to the underlying platform:
AsteroidImpactRange-platformdmg.jpg
AsteroidImpactRange-platformdmg.jpg (136 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
They were: wall, pipe, pipe to ground, pump, radar.
What they share is impact resistance: 45/60%, 30%, 40%, 30%, 30%.
Also note that the damage to the platform under an entity is proportional to the percentage resistance of the entity. In particular, a platform under a wall has taken very similar damage to an uncovered platform.

What seems to happen is a wall, via its high impact resistance, redirects almost all of incoming damage to the platform under it.
Which makes walls the worst ablative armor there is and higher qualities walls might not matter at all, as a platform under a wall gets destroyed before the wall, as OP observed.
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by Wiwiweb »

Bumping this thread. Belts can defend against asteroids better than walls, that cannot be intended behaviour.
Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-16-55.png
Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-16-55.png (268.31 KiB) Viewed 1114 times
Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-17-09.png
Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-17-09.png (171.69 KiB) Viewed 1114 times
Throwing a medium asteroid. on_entity_damaged event tells me the incoming damage is 100 impact damage.
  • Belt: Goes down to 50/150 health.
  • Wall. Damage is reduced to 22 thanks to impact resistance. The remaining 78 damage seems to be propagated to the foundation tile! The tile dies, taking the wall along with it.
Using a small asteroid (40 damage) we can see that the wall takes 1 damage and the tile below the wall gets damaged for ~39 damage.
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by Rseding91 »

Ok, I see the issue now. Sorry everyone, I wasn’t understanding what was happen but the latest post shows the issue clearly.
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by computeraddict »

Wiwiweb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:20 pm Bumping this thread. Belts can defend against asteroids better than walls, that cannot be intended behaviour.

Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-16-55.png
Screenshot from 2024-11-16 13-17-09.png

Throwing a medium asteroid. on_entity_damaged event tells me the incoming damage is 100 impact damage.
  • Belt: Goes down to 50/150 health.
  • Wall. Damage is reduced to 22 thanks to impact resistance. The remaining 78 damage seems to be propagated to the foundation tile! The tile dies, taking the wall along with it.
Using a small asteroid (40 damage) we can see that the wall takes 1 damage and the tile below the wall gets damaged for ~39 damage.
A use for legendary belts!

I'm guessing that the game says "100 damage to your tile. How much does the entity on it take? The tile takes the rest," assuming that the entity not taking the full damage means it died.
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Re: [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by Muche »

I came to understand that the wall nerf was due to a beta player who built long platform full of walls without any turrets.
A wall redirecting incoming damage to the platform under it was a solution to make that strategy not viable, thus "it's working as designed / not a bug".
I think that solution also hurts casual players the most, who have reasonable amounts of walls, and expect them to perform better as shield than belts.

Also I believe there was later change to limit the maximum length of a platform that also mitigates against the wall-only strategy.

My idea was to not allow repairing and/or building walls while the platform is moving. This has the potential to mitigate against the wall-only strategy, while not hurting reasonable walls of casual players. It could also be applied for the reactive armor, i.e. land mines.
But I haven't investigated/simulated it yet.
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Re: [Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by Rseding91 »

Thanks for the example showing what I was missing. This is now fixed for the next release.

Before it was working like this:
  • Wall has 350 health
  • Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
  • Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
  • Asteroid records "33 damage used to impact wall" and reduces its remaining damage to 67
  • Asteroid hits the platform tile with 67 damage
  • Platform tile has 50 health and dies
  • Asteroid records "50 damage used to destroy tile" and reduces its remaining damage to 17
  • Asteroid hits next tile available and does 17 damage to it
After it will work like this:
  • Wall has 350 health
  • Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
  • Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
  • Asteroid records "33 damage was used to damage the wall" but it didn't die so it used all 100 damage and reduces its remaining damage to 0 and dies
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Re: [Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by MrNukealizer »

Rseding91 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 3:51 pm After it will work like this:
  • Wall has 350 health
  • Medium asteroid hits wall wanting to do 100 damage
  • Wall takes 33~ damage due to resistances
  • Asteroid records "33 damage was used to damage the wall" but it didn't die so it used all 100 damage and reduces its remaining damage to 0 and dies
What if the wall has 30 health so it does die? Would that leave the asteroid with 5 remaining damage to lightly damage the tile or 70 to destroy it and hit the next thing? The way you worded it makes it sound like the wall not dying is key to damage reduction working properly.
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Re: [Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by boskid »

There is a reverse step so if 30 health was removed before entity died, amount of damage required for such effect is computed and this value is subtracted from remaining damage.
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Re: [Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by computeraddict »

And this will be why we can't have stone in space :D
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Re: [Rseding91] [2.0.12] Stone walls take more damage from asteroids.

Post by BlueTemplar »

Oh wow, this is an enormous change to early space balance !
My 2nd design went from barely surviving its first round-trip to Fulgora to almost invulnerable even when ammo is over !

(Physical Damage and Shooting Speed both at 4.)
I can't believe I didn't notice that walls were under-performing that badly !!
Muche wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:47 pm I came to understand that the wall nerf was due to a beta player who built long platform full of walls without any turrets.
A wall redirecting incoming damage to the platform under it was a solution to make that strategy not viable, thus "it's working as designed / not a bug".
I think that solution also hurts casual players the most, who have reasonable amounts of walls, and expect them to perform better as shield than belts.

Also I believe there was later change to limit the maximum length of a platform that also mitigates against the wall-only strategy.

My idea was to not allow repairing and/or building walls while the platform is moving. This has the potential to mitigate against the wall-only strategy, while not hurting reasonable walls of casual players. It could also be applied for the reactive armor, i.e. land mines.
But I haven't investigated/simulated it yet.
Yeah, I see, good luck balancing walls in space...

One mitigation that might work is to have walls add additional platform mass ??
(But only walls, to keep things simple.)

P.S.: A more radical solution might be to just forbid sending walls to space ??
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