Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

[Durabys]

It would be great if you just set everything in the base game to 100% efficiency, and omitted the info from the tooltip if it's 100%. So anyone playing vanilla would not see the info at all, but if a mod adds something with, say, 70% efficiency, or 120% efficiency, it would show up as part of the tooltip.

Thats what we did, the functionality still exists

As for resistance streamlining: As long as it is possible to add new resistance types through modding, I don't mind them being streamlined in the base game. But if we're stuck with four resistance types, it's going to make combat a lot less interesting.

We are just removing some of the base game categories, mods can still add/amend/remove as they please

Look. I mostly play vanilla. Which means 99 percent of the time I would play the game as you intended. Without the pickaxe. I do not mind any other change you did but one. The pickaxe. Not because I like the mods with it but because I love the Mod/DIY spirit of the community and this is basically saying: We do not want you to play this game as you did for the last 7 years.

What?!

This is a matter of principle.

I do not understand why you had to remove the code for it in the UI. I thought the game code was enough malleable that if you truly were interested in gameplay balance and simplification you could have just put an off switch into the code and be done with it and simply say to modders: "Hey, the pickaxe UI code is at Line X, you can use it in modded games but vanilla stays this way. Sorry, out of luck.".

Were there stability issues with the game code of the new GUI you are making? Would it have been crashing the UI and the game if the deactivated pickaxe UI code had stayed in the game?

[posila]

Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.

[Durabys]

Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.

So years ago if I get it right?

[ske]

Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.

You'd have to bury it but then you'd need a shovel to fill up the hole and where would the shovel go?

[featherwinglove]

I mostly play vanilla. Which means 99 percent of the time I would play the game as you intended. Without the pickaxe. I do not mind any other change you did but one. The pickaxe. Not because I like the mods with it but because I love the Mod/DIY spirit of the community and this is basically saying: We do not want you to play this game as you did for the last 7 years.

What?!

This is a matter of principle.

Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.

I agree with Tomik, and for the reasons I explained earlier, it really is a matter of principle, and went into considerable depth. Removing the axe is not just a stupid idea, it's a damned stupid idea. Wube's first AAA-league gaffe and hopefully, rather than a sign of things to come, you guys listening to your dedicated players and your modders, including especially your single biggest modder, is the real sign of things to come. At this point, I seriously hesitate recommending this game to my friends because you haven't listened. That isn't a threat, just that the removal of the axe and your attitude in this thread wells up like bile in my mind and that flavour in my throat whenever I want to discuss Factorio with someone who hasn't made the purchase.

When I first saw the FFF, I thought maybe it was just me, but that didn't make much sense with Bob's progression of axes. Then I jumped blindly into this thread with my thoughts, which are shared by just about everyone whose name in the thread is orange. It feels like you've betrayed us.

Let me fast-forward to the first experimental, then first stable, release of 0.17. It is very likely that those of us active in the forum and religiously reading the FFFs are in the minority, especially since I myself often take breaks long enough from Factorio to miss most of a major version's updates. There are probably a lot of people out there who probably don't know this is coming down the pipe yet, who probably don't preserve old download files and installations (I'm curious as to what % of the downloads are *.msi) and this is going to blindside them. They are going to update Factorio one day, start a new game and attempt to craft the axe and go "Wut??" Some will probably welcome the change, but I'm pretty sure most are going to be perplexed and confused, even if they eventually come around. There might be a whole bunch who mod just as much as I do, but simply don't hang out in the forums. There are probably going to be a few who finally get bored of Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee, put the Switch down, (it seems like that and RDR2 are the only good AAA games of 2018) and boot up Factorio for the first time in months. And there's going to be something missing...

Put the axe back.

[Lubricus]

I mostly play vanilla. Which means 99 percent of the time I would play the game as you intended. Without the pickaxe. I do not mind any other change you did but one. The pickaxe. Not because I like the mods with it but because I love the Mod/DIY spirit of the community and this is basically saying: We do not want you to play this game as you did for the last 7 years.

What?!

This is a matter of principle.

Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.

I agree with Tomik, and for the reasons I explained earlier, it really is a matter of principle, and went into considerable depth. Removing the axe is not just a stupid idea, it's a damned stupid idea. Wube's first AAA-league gaffe and hopefully, rather than a sign of things to come, you guys listening to your dedicated players and your modders, including especially your single biggest modder, is the real sign of things to come. At this point, I seriously hesitate recommending this game to my friends because you haven't listened. That isn't a threat, just that the removal of the axe and your attitude in this thread wells up like bile in my mind and that flavour in my throat whenever I want to discuss Factorio with someone who hasn't made the purchase.

When I first saw the FFF, I thought maybe it was just me, but that didn't make much sense with Bob's progression of axes. Then I jumped blindly into this thread with my thoughts, which are shared by just about everyone whose name in the thread is orange. It feels like you've betrayed us.

Let me fast-forward to the first experimental, then first stable, release of 0.17. It is very likely that those of us active in the forum and religiously reading the FFFs are in the minority, especially since I myself often take breaks long enough from Factorio to miss most of a major version's updates. There are probably a lot of people out there who probably don't know this is coming down the pipe yet, who probably don't preserve old download files and installations (I'm curious as to what % of the downloads are *.msi) and this is going to blindside them. They are going to update Factorio one day, start a new game and attempt to craft the axe and go "Wut??" Some will probably welcome the change, but I'm pretty sure most are going to be perplexed and confused, even if they eventually come around. There might be a whole bunch who mod just as much as I do, but simply don't hang out in the forums. There are probably going to be a few who finally get bored of Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee, put the Switch down, (it seems like that and RDR2 are the only good AAA games of 2018) and boot up Factorio for the first time in months. And there's going to be something missing...

Put the axe back.

I don't care about the axe at all. It's like they have said you craft it once and forget it until it wears out and you get annoyed about the fact you have to craft a bunch again.
Mods can have different tools you hold in the hand (would be appropriate for the stone age mod) or just do as vanilla and have the mining tool as a straight up tech research. If I hadn't played factorio in a while I probably don't even had noticed that the axe are gone, it's so insignificant to the game-play.
I agree that it's in the step to clean up mechanics and make the game more accessible many developers fail and remove important mechanics and dumb down the game. So I was scared of the title of the FFF but when reading the changes, I am fine with them. Do you actually think the the axe is is an important part of the game or is it just a knee jerk reaction because all the stupidities other developers have done to other games?

[Jürgen Erhard]

The amazing (and to me, astonishing ) popularity of Bob's and Angel's

Only 5% of players use Bob's mods, and even less use Angel's.

Late reply, but… check the mod portal. Of the top twenty most popular mods, *FOUR* aren't either Angel's or Bob's. I rest my case.

So, the only bit of your "argument" left is: no-one uses mods. Remove them then?

[Jap2.0]

The amazing (and to me, astonishing ) popularity of Bob's and Angel's

Only 5% of players use Bob's mods, and even less use Angel's.

Late reply, but… check the mod portal. Of the top twenty most popular mods, *FOUR* aren't either Angel's or Bob's. I rest my case.

So, the only bit of your "argument" left is: no-one uses mods. Remove them then?

And one of those four (upgrade planner) will be in vanilla next update (although the current 21st isn't Bobs or Angels either).

Also to note that Bob's functions library, Bottleneck, and Upgrade planner all have versions with over 100,000 downloads, meaning that objectively far over 5% of players (let alone active players) use mods.

[featherwinglove]

I don't care about the axe at all. It's like they have said you craft it once and forget it until it wears out and you get annoyed about the fact you have to craft a bunch again.
Mods can have different tools you hold in the hand (would be appropriate for the stone age mod) or just do as vanilla and have the mining tool as a straight up tech research. If I hadn't played factorio in a while I probably don't even had noticed that the axe are gone, it's so insignificant to the game-play.

It might be insignificant to how you play the game, and how the devs play the game, but it is not insignificant to how I play the game, and many others as well. That's the whole point. Like Minecraft before it, lemme fetch the reminder, brb...

In the ancient times, you first had to create a wooden pick, to create a stone pick, to mine basic resources, to make iron, so you can make an iron pick. Yes... this was clearly Minecraft affecting our ideas. We identified soon, that this prequel of manual mining has nothing to do with the core of-

Age of Engineering, Automata, SkyFactory and half a dozen other modpacks for Minecraft!

I agree that it's in the step to clean up mechanics and make the game more accessible many developers fail and remove important mechanics and dumb down the game. So I was scared of the title of the FFF but when reading the changes, I am fine with them. Do you actually think the the axe is is an important part of the game or is it just a knee jerk reaction because all the stupidities other developers have done to other games?

Absolutely! Haven't you read any of my previous replies? It took me a week to sort out that it was no patellar reflex and articulate exactly why, and that's how I opened my first post on this thread.

[posila]

It is unfortunate reality of early access games - you might see the game as something else than what developers see it as and end up being disappointed when the development progresses and the game gets closer to vision of developers rather than what you have thought it is going to be. So I feel like we have "tricked" you into buying wrong game. I am sorry for that.

I am listening (actually I am spending on this much more time than I should), but all I hear are emotions and very little reason. Some people pointed out it is not going to be possible to do some things, which we recognized as valid concern and we will do something about it. Others pointed out StoneAge mod, but that should be able to use something else to do what it wants to do in 0.17. Then there are role-playing people, who say pickaxe removal breaks the immersion for them. Wrong game, I am sorry. Your last two posts are purely emotional to me. Nothing I can act upon. You mentioned "Bob's progression of axes" - let's stick to that. What interesting does it bring to the gameplay? Does it create choice for players - isn't it just craft the highest tier pickaxe and forget about it?

I think some people expected us to backout from removing pickaxe, since we backed out from cancelling research queue pretty fast. That situation was different in that people on the team were split about the decision in the first place (as we are on most things ... and that's why 0.17 didn't see light of day this year). Pickaxe doesn't have any allies on the team, so it is harder for you as you'd need to plant a seed of doubt in at least one developer first.

[Jap2.0]

It is unfortunate reality of early access games - you might see the game as something else than what developers see it as and end up being disappointed when the development progresses and the game gets closer to vision of developers rather than what you have thought it is going to be. So I feel like we have "tricked" you into buying wrong game. I am sorry for that.

I am listening (actually I am spending on this much more time than I should), but all I hear are emotions and very little reason. Some people pointed out it is not going to be possible to do some things, which we recognized as valid concern and we will do something about it. Others pointed out StoneAge mod, but that should be able to use something else to do what it wants to do in 0.17. Then there are role-playing people, who say pickaxe removal breaks the immersion for them. Wrong game, I am sorry. Your last two posts are purely emotional to me. Nothing I can act upon. You mentioned "Bob's progression of axes" - let's stick to that. What interesting does it bring to the gameplay? Does it create choice for players - isn't it just craft the highest tier pickaxe and forget about it?

I think some people expected us to backout from removing pickaxe, since we backed out from cancelling research queue pretty fast. That situation was different in that people on the team were split about the decision in the first place (as we are on most things ... and that's why 0.17 didn't see light of day this year). Pickaxe doesn't have any allies on the team, so it is harder for you as you'd need to plant a seed of doubt in at least one developer first.

You say that new players trying to use the pickaxe by taking it into their cursor might be used to doing so from Minecraft or other games. Can I just quickly remind everyone that in Minecraft mining is done by having the pickaxe in the toolbar and leaving it there? How are you coming to the conclusion that this is coming from minecraft? I can't really think of any games that work like this.

[posila]

You say that new players trying to use the pickaxe by taking it into their cursor might be used to doing so from Minecraft or other games. Can I just quickly remind everyone that in Minecraft mining is done by having the pickaxe in the toolbar and leaving it there? How are you coming to the conclusion that this is coming from minecraft? I can't really think of any games that work like this.

Kovarex wrote the FFF, I haven't said anything about how other games handle their tools.

[mexmer]

It is unfortunate reality of early access games - you might see the game as something else than what developers see it as and end up being disappointed when the development progresses and the game gets closer to vision of developers rather than what you have thought it is going to be. So I feel like we have "tricked" you into buying wrong game. I am sorry for that.

I am listening (actually I am spending on this much more time than I should), but all I hear are emotions and very little reason. Some people pointed out it is not going to be possible to do some things, which we recognized as valid concern and we will do something about it. Others pointed out StoneAge mod, but that should be able to use something else to do what it wants to do in 0.17. Then there are role-playing people, who say pickaxe removal breaks the immersion for them. Wrong game, I am sorry. Your last two posts are purely emotional to me. Nothing I can act upon. You mentioned "Bob's progression of axes" - let's stick to that. What interesting does it bring to the gameplay? Does it create choice for players - isn't it just craft the highest tier pickaxe and forget about it?

I think some people expected us to backout from removing pickaxe, since we backed out from cancelling research queue pretty fast. That situation was different in that people on the team were split about the decision in the first place (as we are on most things ... and that's why 0.17 didn't see light of day this year). Pickaxe doesn't have any allies on the team, so it is harder for you as you'd need to plant a seed of doubt in at least one developer first.

You say that new players trying to use the pickaxe by taking it into their cursor might be used to doing so from Minecraft or other games. Can I just quickly remind everyone that in Minecraft mining is done by having the pickaxe in the toolbar and leaving it there? How are you coming to the conclusion that this is coming from minecraft? I can't really think of any games that work like this.

while you have it in toolbar, it is shown in your hand (you select toolbar slot, for pickaxe, or sword, or torch, or whatever you want to hold), so people aim at stuff with pickaxe and click, since there is no such view in factorio, if you put pickaxe into toolbelt slot (Which you can), then select that slot, it will show in your hand, like furnace or any other other item. so this might seem familiar for lot of people.

btw. slot switching (that also modifies tools in character hands), is not exclusive to minecraft, but minecraft is not bad example to illustrate this.

[featherwinglove]

It is unfortunate reality of early access games - you might see the game as something else than what developers see it as and end up being disappointed when the development progresses and the game gets closer to vision of developers rather than what you have thought it is going to be. So I feel like we have "tricked" you into buying wrong game. I am sorry for that.

Let Minecraft influence your thinking once again then: I don't know what the original vision for Minecraft was, but I do know that they had, at the outset, planned proper character models, and changed their minds when the blocky ones became iconic. The early access player base fed back heavily into the direction of the game's development. Now, Minecraft (at least in the crowd I find myself) is defined more by mods than by vanilla. Mods that usually make the game more like Factorio.

You do need to bear in mind that if your actual vision departs so completely from what you "tricked" us into buying that players start to feel actually tricked, that vision needs to be adjusted. I don't think a large percentage of the player base needs to feel this to seriously affect Factorio's reputation (and probably Wube's as well.) 6% lost sales is enough to bother AAA directors, but it would likely be much more than that because, as I hope you've observed, the 6% or so that the removal of the axe matters to are the modders and streamers that serve as Factorio's ersatz PR department. If those people feel let down by this, and then go on to express their displeasure.

I am listening (actually I am spending on this much more time than I should), but all I hear are emotions and very little reason.

I feel very insulted by this remark. Have you not read my previous posts explaining exactly why I think the removal of the axe from mod availability is such a damned awful idea? I have reasoned a lot, and I have written a lot. I think you need to go back and read that again, because if this is your take-away, I must opine that you aren't spending enough time on it.

Some people pointed out it is not going to be possible to do some things, which we recognized as valid concern and we will do something about it. Others pointed out StoneAge mod, but that should be able to use something else to do what it wants to do in 0.17.

Can't you just put the axe back?

It doesn't have to be in vanilla, I think we're pretty much agreed on that, but to take it away from the modding community. I mean, unless you can point definitively to the "something else" you just referred to that would be as adequate and satisfying to those players as the axe.

Then there are role-playing people, who say pickaxe removal breaks the immersion for them. Wrong game, I am sorry. Your last two posts are purely emotional to me. Nothing I can act upon. You mentioned "Bob's progression of axes" - let's stick to that. What interesting does it bring to the gameplay? Does it create choice for players - isn't it just craft the highest tier pickaxe and forget about it?

Now I can point to something very specific about my posts that you clearly missed: The Mountains (now bundled in Cross Mod) and Diggy mods lead to a heck of manual mining, and really make circumstances difficult for accessing ores, and I like that. There's nothing to scratch my reclamation itch, but that doesn't matter as much. So yeah, I've actually made not just one, but a stack of twenty titanium axes, thinking it was going to last long enough that I could ignore it, and the last one broke at a rather inconvenient moment, and I kinda felt silly that I wasn't paying enough attention to how many I had left.

Pickaxe doesn't have any allies on the team, so it is harder for you as you'd need to plant a seed of doubt in at least one developer first.

It does if you count Bobingabout! He might not be on your payroll but he does have source access and makes the single biggest modpack. His opinion doesn't count? The reason I don't think he's as vocal is because the reasoning behind our opposition to the complete removal of the axe is hard to articulate. I think that's why you're seeing it as emotional: The axe is important, it's just hard to wrap one's head around why. I've succeeded in understanding the problem, and have explained it in previous posts. Perhaps I'm not very good at conveying that understanding, and if so, please let me know what you're tripping over in those previous posts, and maybe I can try a better approach.

[Bilka]

It does if you count Bobingabout! He might not be on your payroll but he does have source access and makes the single biggest modpack. His opinion doesn't count?

We don't do favoritism. His opinion counts just as much as yours or as much AntiElite's (a good friend of mine and most popular speedrunner) or anyone elses.

[Jap2.0]

You say that new players trying to use the pickaxe by taking it into their cursor might be used to doing so from Minecraft or other games. Can I just quickly remind everyone that in Minecraft mining is done by having the pickaxe in the toolbar and leaving it there? How are you coming to the conclusion that this is coming from minecraft? I can't really think of any games that work like this.

Kovarex wrote the FFF, I haven't said anything about how other games handle their tools.

Ah, sorry.

I am listening (actually I am spending on this much more time than I should), but all I hear are emotions and very little reason. Some people pointed out it is not going to be possible to do some things, which we recognized as valid concern and we will do something about it. Others pointed out StoneAge mod, but that should be able to use something else to do what it wants to do in 0.17.

Saying "all I hear [is] very little reason" yet admitting "we recognized [it] as a valid concern", but only saying "we will do something about it" and "that should be able to use something else to do what it wants in 0.17" sounds like you're admitting there's a problem (which is at least progress - the extent of any recognition of that in the entire rest of the thread was roughly one "that's a bummer", so thank you for recognizing that. 48 days and 489 post late is better than never), yet simultaneously claim it's not an issue and that it will be fixed, without giving us any details at all of how. Do you realize how that could lead to us being worried?

[featherwinglove]

We don't do favoritism. His opinion counts just as much as yours or as much AntiElite's (a good friend of mine and most popular speedrunner) or anyone elses.

Is this the chink in the armor built against the existence of the axe? The aforementioned seed of doubt?

I was about to throw together a recap of the reasoning for Posila's benefit, when I suddenly realized around:

Mods will not die. Some really seem to believe, that the dude, that made Wube give him source code access and add quite a chunk of his code in the game...

Maybe this dude (presumably Bobingabout) can solve the problem: What we need is a way to implement the vanilla intent of no axes, and then a way to turn it back on when we want, either by difficulty setting or mod code. Frankly, I think that no axes and mining hardness should have been left alone, changed only to the extent that the base mod can turn them off completely, leaving it to modders to turn them back on as they see fit. Going back over the thread, it does look like the changes to mining hardness are wreaking more havoc with the modders than the removal of the axe, and that the primary resource access gating in Bob's is basically broken. This resource gating is one of my favorite mechanics ...although I think setting galena and quartz to very low frequency is overdoing it in most circumstances (licks wounds). I would also like to remind Posila that I tend to play with No Hand Mining (i.e. a little mod that disables the player's ability to mine ores while leaving entity mining unaffected - it's actually nice because I don't wind up locking on an ore patch that looks more like a small rock that won't break.) It is in that environment that I'm up in arms with the murder of the axe.

[Jeeto]

Just don't get rid of hand crafting or non-botting, if I ever get bored with running around and carrying things or having everything go on belts, I'll give bots a try (or if my base gets too large to manage myself) but I think bots are far from what I thought the game would be when I purchased it. I want a goal of launching a rocket, or maybe 100-200 SPM, but if I get bored enough to want to launch a rocket per minute or do thousands of science per minute, it sounds like I need to just start a new map or increase the biter settings or something cause it's about designing and building a factory, not running one!

[Oktokolo]

Mods will not die. Some really seem to believe, that the dude, that made Wube give him source code access and add quite a chunk of his code in the game...

Maybe this dude (presumably Bobingabout) can solve the problem

I am pretty sure, that he not only could reimplement the axe, but will also realize, that the axes indeed do not improve gameplay at all. The axes in vanilla and Bob's (don't know about Stoneage though as i never played it) always where a crappy concept. It just was something that you build/upgrade as soon as possible and have to replace whenever you least expect it. It mostly was a minor annoyance. For me, making it a research-only thing, is an actual improvement. Only a small one, but its all the small things, that make Factorio great.
So i will probably just have a bit more fun playing Bob's after the axing of the axes.

And the new correct way of doing resource gating is to use resource_categories. If you want to mine the good stuff you will have to place some special miner to do it for you. Hand mining is only in the game to be able to bootstrap a no-nothing start...

[Mike5000]

I've been programming for more than half a century. Databases, financials, expert systems, AI. I love programming.

Factorio is like programming. In FORTRAN. An obscure dialect of FORTRAN with only one level of subroutines allowed. And you can have arrays and you can have floating point but you can't have floating point arrays. In fact forget FORTRAN. Factorio is like a crappy BASIC on an 8080.

Factorio is all about automation. But don't automate too much. Because? OP!

You want to construct things with bots? Fine. You want to deliver things to players with bots? Fine. You want bots to recycle garbage by delivering things to chests? OP! Wait until your factory is 90% complete and then go back and retrofit recycling! You want bots to deliver direct from malls to cargo wagons? OP! OP! OP!

So I like parts of Factorio but I don't love it. Axes are just one small symptom of counterproductive dev attitudes.

SMAC is still my benchmark game. Interesting terrain, interesting opponents, a story, and once you're researched them you can combine chassis/reactors/weapons/armor/specials in pretty much any combination without some annoying dev popping up and screaming OP!

A simpler and more elegant software design would make it far easier for Factorio to implement fun things like buffer chest cargo wagons.

Arbitrary restrictions are for balancing scenarios and campaigns, not for crippling the base game.