Evolution and turrests

[indjev99]

I know this is addressed in other places, but I wanted to make a separate topic because this is a different approach at looking at the problem.
So a lot of people are complaining about laser and gun turrets (and are right, gun turrets need researches to boost them). But there is also the fact that Biters have almost no laser resistance, but huge Physical resistance.

Do a type of damage that the Biters (not sure about the Spitters) are not very resistant against. Biters evolve to the point where even AP ammo from a Gun Turret only do a tiny amount of damage and only if almost fully upgraded, because of their high numerical (not percentage) Physcial resist. On the other hand, even the biggest Biters have little or no Resist to Laser type damage.

So this makes no sense. Normally what would happen if the Biters evolved (as in darwinian evolution) they would adapt to the type of defense you are using. So I am NOT suggesting to make a real simulation of evolution, but just to keep track of the amount of biters killed by each type of damage and make them evolve resistances to the different types in the same ratio. So the current evolution of biters is to set amounts of each, make it so that it just increases the total resistance but the ratio is updating every 5 minutes for example (that way no biters will start changing their resistance during battle or at least the chance is low). This will make it better to use a combination of different types of turrets, because no matter how much you balance them without this there will always be a turret that s calculatably the best. And if you add more turrets (for example flame turret) there won't be a need to use all (well there will never be a need to use more than 1 type it will just e better) but some sort of combination.

[bobingabout]

Changing their resistance types dynamically would require a whole new logic system to be added to the game.

An easier solution would be to simply add laser resistance to the biters.

[indjev99]

Changing their resistance types dynamically would require a whole new logic system to be added to the game.

An easier solution would be to simply add laser resistance to the biters.

Well that new logic is not something big. Just every time a biter dies add 1 to a counter and every five minutes laser resistance=totalresistance/totaldeaths*laserdeaths. Oh and also the part of code which does something like that: laserresistace+=0.1 gunresistance+=0.3, should be replaced by totalresistance+=0.4 And that's all. It is just a few lines of code.
And also, yes, it would be easier and, yes, it would make the 2 turrets kinda equal, but nobody will change their style to the other type (the one they are not using). And laser turrets would still be more convenient even if gun turrets were boosted, and if they were boosted a lot everybody would use gun turrets.

[ssilk]

What is the reason for this? I mean, why is this really needed?


Because gun turrets are too weak? That is wanted by the devs, they want, that the gun turrets is not as strong as the laser.

[indjev99]

What is the reason for this? I mean, why is this really needed?


Because gun turrets are too weak? That is wanted by the devs, they want, that the gun turrets is not as strong as the laser.

The gun turrets will still be weaker than laser turrets. It will just create (without explicitly forcing it) more diversity by creating more unique game states. Let's say you've been using laser turrets for a long time and the biters have developed resistance to it. Putting some gun turrets (for which they will have almost no resistance) might be a good idea (but not mandatory since if you manage to deal with biters with only laser turrets even when the are maxed laser resistance you don't need the replacement) and will allow you to save resources because you are going to need less turrets. It create more ways to be efficient. Let's say that gun turrets are as strong as laser turrets for the same price (the same amount of materials will deal the same amount of damage) if the biter's laser resistance is 0.9 out of 1 total resistance you will need x materials, but if you use both types of turrets and the biters have 0.5 resistance for both, you will need x/5 materials. But since the turrets do not have the same price to ratio damage (that depends on the map and what resources you have available) the most optimal ratio of turrets is not 1:1 but something else. And it is not a calculation (but a decision) since gun turrets require ammo which is inconvenient and you cannot put a number to inconvenience. So a short summary: this balances the game a bit without making gun turrets stronger, it creates more unique designs for bases, adds more ways to be efficient (which is what the game is about after all) and is not hard to implement.

[Peter34]

Changing their resistance types dynamically would require a whole new logic system to be added to the game.

An easier solution would be to simply add laser resistance to the biters.

I agree with this.

Currently Large Biters have 8 Resistance to Physical, so presumably Medium Biters have 3 or so.

But all have 0 (zero!) Resistance to Laser.

Why not just change that so that Medium Biters get 1 Resist to Laser and Large Biters get 3? Job done! Sometimes it doesn't have to be complicated.

[indjev99]

Changing their resistance types dynamically would require a whole new logic system to be added to the game.

An easier solution would be to simply add laser resistance to the biters.

I agree with this.

Currently Large Biters have 8 Resistance to Physical, so presumably Medium Biters have 3 or so.

But all have 0 (zero!) Resistance to Laser.

Why not just change that so that Medium Biters get 1 Resist to Laser and Large Biters get 3? Job done! Sometimes it doesn't have to be complicated.

But it is not complicated the way I suggest it. It is only a few lines of code. And additionally, it adds an interesting mechanic to make each game unique.

[Neonity]

First of all: I agree with you totally! lasers become severely OP late game, but ( this is just me being nit-picky ) the aliens are obviously not from earth, therefore cannot be held to the Darwinian theory of evolution, we know nothing of the aliens biological make up therefore we cannot make any assumptions about them, the aliens, for all we know, don't have genes at all! they do appear to be mass produced by the spawners after all, again don't take this as one of THOSE comments I agree totally and that should totally be implemented

[SirRichie]

I really do not understand what this whole "laser turrents are OP" discussion is about.
Yes, laser turrets are stronger in virtually any regard than gun turrets. And I think that is good.
Reasons:

• This is not an RTS game, where you need good unit balance
• Laser turrets require research and advanced materials, hence they are a higher "tier"; it is perfectly fine for higher tiers to be stronger, even in RTS games
• What effect would laser resistance in biters have? You would need to build more laser turrets, unless they are weaker than gun turrets because of the change, then you just build gun turrets and complain that they are OP
• For any balancing suggestions that force more diverse turret setups: I do not think this is in the spirit of Factorio. The focus is on automation, not forcibly-diverse gun layouts. There is enough to do without worrying about your defense layouts
• For anyone who wishes to have a more complex turret system: use mods

[Koub]

You're just discussing with people who play with max biters, only with their left hand, and find the game too easy nevertheless. In every game there are people who want more difficulty, more challenge, mods with surrealist difficulty where odds are 1000:1 against the player.

For the average person, laser turrets as they are are just what is needed .

[bobucles]

It's not so bad that laser turrets work very well. If you want more variety in defensive types I think there is more potential in flamethrower turrets and rocket/cannon turrets. The former obviously sports heavy armor and a short range burn, while the latter can have long range explosive sniping.

I think some of the problem with "overpowered" defenses is that biters can ultimately be controlled. The biggest aggro modifier comes from pollution, and you can control pollution to a great degree with efficiency modules/solar power. Biters aren't very aggressive when it comes to building large scale nests or spreading into your territory, which makes clearing them out permanently effective. Additionally there's no such thing as an indestructible or ultimate armored nest. Nests stay at 350HP/2 armor all game long, and once you wipe them out they're gone for good.

I think the most damning thing is that the player's combat power relies so little on his weapons, vehicles, combat drones or equipment. Kicking ass and taking names is all about hauling mountains of laser turrets. Every other armament in the game is pitiful next to a stack of 50 laser turrets, and it's not out of line to fill half your inventory to carve red through the most brutal map settings.

[SirRichie]

On that, I agree.
Again, I do not think it is bad that laser turrets are really powerful, since they need quite some work to get (and build). And I strong believe that players should be given a good tool for base defense. Big spitters will still occasionally hit your laser turrets, so you'll have to automate repairs, which makes this non trivial.

On the other hand, it is a bit crazy that the most effective way to conquer large biter nests is by building laser turret farms next to them. Clearly the player should have much better weapons than that. But that is another discussion. When it comes to balancing towers against each other, I think Factorio is doing a great job.

[bobucles]

Ever run around with a maxed combat shotgun and loads o' drones? The player DOES have incredible firepower at his disposal. It's just that a wall of drones has limited duration, limited cap, and is highly consumable. A wall of turrets is none of those things.

The difficulty of attacking biters ultimately depends on how much firepower a player can muster vs. what the nest has. If the player can attack with "nigh unlimited" laser turret power, no tier of ludicrously difficult map setting can possibly hope to fight back.

I don't know if there's any happy solution to this. You could just say "yea its coo" and let turret walls stay as the meta. I think the simplest solution, if one's goal is to keep turrets at home, is to change the inventory stacking of turrets. No more than 5 per stack will drastically limit the number of combat turrets taken to the field. One per stack will cripple turret based porcupining. It also means that players will need logistic networks more than ever before as a way of placing and replacing turrets. Players wishing to deploy lots of turrets on the frontier would have to carry raw materials and construct them in hand or build a small factory. Either answer doesn't work well in combat.

[Koub]

I must admit I never used turrets offensively, only to defend my base. Never use combat bots either. a (combat) shotgun and a power armor, and I'm ok .

[bobucles]

Absurd firepower matters for high biter settings, where the map turns into a solid wall of red. The player can definitely shotgun his way through the 1-5 nest clusters that normal settings produce. Higher settings have you face 20, 50 or more nests at the same time.

Overall the map settings aren't really adequate for nest spawning. The high settings leave you totally pinned inside the spawn area, and after teching up there's no real fight left on the low settings.

[Marconos]

Absurd firepower matters for high biter settings, where the map turns into a solid wall of red. The player can definitely shotgun his way through the 1-5 nest clusters that normal settings produce. Higher settings have you face 20, 50 or more nests at the same time.

Overall the map settings aren't really adequate for nest spawning. The high settings leave you totally pinned inside the spawn area, and after teching up there's no real fight left on the low settings.

I mostly play with all biter settings set to max, the current Turrets (both laser and gun) are actually too powerful IMO. I never have issues with large swarms. I have also found that gun turrets actually cut through the biters /spitters much easier than lasers and need a much lower concentration of them.

[Nasabot]

I wouldnt mess around with resistances by evolution, because the math behind the damage calculation is very prone to imbalances (1 damage more might double your damage)

In my opinion turrets should be equally useful, but for different purposes. But to balance it this way, there have other things to be changed too, because currently energy is pretty much "worthless"(because its free) while bullets are EXTREMLY resource intensive(in fact, if the player uses bullets instead of shotgun shells, his damage is ~16x for the same resource input)

So, to make gun turrets balanced, different things need to be changed:

-increase healthpoints of gun turrets. (maybe ober 1000 + more resistances because Id consider gun turrets as "melee defense")
-introduce high laser resistance(50-90%) to melee aliens, but then you also have to change the AI of turrets, so laser turrets focus ranged aliens
-introduce research which allows reduced ammo consumption.(Id say 90% reduced ammo consumption is minimum for a maxed out research to make gun turrets competitive) Maybe also give the player an option to automate refilling of bullets by drones easier or introduce a new item "big magazine" which can only be used for towers and offers ~1000 bullets for a much cheaper price

range of both turrets are fine imo

Currently gun turrets become useful pretty fast, but not nessarily because they dont do enough damage, but because of energy triviliziation and immense resource consumption of bullets. The +100% damage is BY FAR not enough to make gun turrets viable compared to laser turrets. I think even if it was +1000% damage I think laser turrets are still better, because of the mentioned problems...