Version 2.1.21

[Alfonse215]

Adjusted space platform drag to be based on weight rather than width.

I would be interested to see how the formulas for calculating acceleration and top speed have changed. The formulas will be the ultimate decider of what the new fastest space platforms will look like. If the new formulas make the new fastest ships slower than what used to be possible, then I don't like this change. If they get faster (per unit area of the ship) on average, then I like the change.

If this change was made intentionally to make ships slower on average, then...

The absolute fastest ships possible used thruster stacking. This will make them slower. Stacking can still be a benefit, but the weight factor incurs significant diminishing returns with each stack.

I've done a few preliminary calculations, and it seems to me that there is an inflection point, where the accumulated weight cannot be compensated for by adding another thruster plus its necessary weight. But at the same time, this is a very broad inflection point, so there can be a pretty large variety of configurations that can hit the max speed.

[numbernegative]

Devs are on record too that they viewed thruster stacking as an exploit they planned to patch.

[TheWarderman]

Adjusted space platform drag to be based on weight rather than width.

I would be interested to see how the formulas for calculating acceleration and top speed have changed. The formulas will be the ultimate decider of what the new fastest space platforms will look like. If the new formulas make the new fastest ships slower than what used to be possible, then I don't like this change. If they get faster (per unit area of the ship) on average, then I like the change.

If this change was made intentionally to make ships slower on average, then...

The absolute fastest ships possible used thruster stacking. This will make them slower. Stacking can still be a benefit, but the weight factor incurs significant diminishing returns with each stack.

I've done a few preliminary calculations, and it seems to me that there is an inflection point, where the accumulated weight cannot be compensated for by adding another thruster plus its necessary weight. But at the same time, this is a very broad inflection point, so there can be a pretty large variety of configurations that can hit the max speed.

It seems like there is gonna be a max speed now though before arbitrarily large speeds were possible but impractical. Now it seems like there's an actual cap.

[MRI-One]

With the new formula, when you keep the mass to thrust ratio constant, top speed increases proportional to mass^0.1 As these are the only factors in the calculation, optimal speed ships are now either extra wide or continue to have stacked thrusters. If you want to avoid both, the drag would need a width factor, maybe something like 40% mass + 60% Max( mass, width ^ 0.4) to penalize too wide ships. And for stacked thrusters, you could remove the need by adding booster modules for thrusters, stacking them vertically above, and each giving a small 25% boost to the connected thruster.

[FasterJump]

Nice update, the decision to change drag is interesting, and I welcome new circuit options.

Minor Features

• Added quick pipette: pressing key related to empty quickbar slot will invoke pipette and set the slot with the pipette result.

How about enabling pipetted items (or ghost items) to set machine's recipes? Just like what circuits can do. That would save a ton of time when plopping down a machine to craft on the fly.

[MEOWMI]

From testing, nearly all of my ships are a fair bit slower (my 8-tile wide ship lost more than 60% of its top speed). I have to say, though, that it is a change for the better.

Viewed from almost any point, width being the dominant metric for determining speed is weird, and it is also really unclear to new players. You would expect that weight matters the most, and now that is actually true. On top of everything, I also like that this change allows for more varied geometries and design optimizations.

[nekicowek]

i must say i hate this patch.. all my ships are now way slower than before... narrow, wide, squarish ones.. all way way slower.. i resisted to engine stacking, now i feel like i am forced to do it, and that is really bad..
i understand there is logic behind this change, weight and not width should be the factor in first place, but balance is way off..
if it is because realism, than there should nod be any "top speed" at all, but just acceleration tied to thrust power vs weight.. having "top speed" is equally unrealistic as "width=drag" was..
hope it will be rebalanced soon..

[polymath63]

With the change to space platform mass affecting "space drag", we need easier ways to see mass of components in various places (menus, mouse overs etc) so it's always visible.

I'd also argue for higher quality items to have less mass, or even an option for higher quality items to have the same functionality as ordinary items, but far less mass. Probably weigh (get it?) too complicated to do, but it would open up new reasons to go for quality earlier, as well as more interesting ways to make faster ships.

[MechBFP]

i must say i hate this patch.. all my ships are now way slower than before... narrow, wide, squarish ones.. all way way slower.. i resisted to engine stacking, now i feel like i am forced to do it, and that is really bad..
i understand there is logic behind this change, weight and not width should be the factor in first place, but balance is way off..
if it is because realism, than there should nod be any "top speed" at all, but just acceleration tied to thrust power vs weight.. having "top speed" is equally unrealistic as "width=drag" was..
hope it will be rebalanced soon..

Try rebalancing your ship first. The reason it is so slow is because it is so heavy. Before weight made no difference, so your ships are likely an unoptimized mess.

[FasterJump]

I did some testings with my promethium ship configurations. Stats: 30 tiles wide, 380 tons, 3 thrusters (1 legendary and 2 epic) throttled based on tank/pipeline volume.
My top speeds were previously 240km/s or 280 km/s in 2.1.20
In 2.1.21, my top speeds became 207km/s or 238km/s. That's around 15% speed reduction.
After adding 2 rare thrusters, my speed became 253km/s or 290 km/s.

I expect that most ships will loose some speed and will need some extra thrusters to compensate, and those hard to fix will just be needle ships and insanely fast ones. Curious to see other people's comparisons.

With the change to space platform mass affecting "space drag", we need easier ways to see mass of components in various places (menus, mouse overs etc) so it's always visible.

I'd also argue for higher quality items to have less mass, or even an option for higher quality items to have the same functionality as ordinary items, but far less mass. Probably weigh (get it?) too complicated to do, but it would open up new reasons to go for quality earlier, as well as more interesting ways to make faster ships.

Every space platform foundation tile is 200kg, empty or occupied. Effectively any machine has a mass of zero. And quality already reduces design footprint, thus reducing overall ship mass.

[Alfonse215]

Every space platform foundation tile is 200kg, empty or occupied. Effectively any machine has a mass of zero. And quality already reduces design footprint, thus reducing overall ship mass.

Not just quality: beacons. One carefully placed beacon (especially with quality) around some furnaces and assemblers could be quite the weight saver indeed. Several of my early game ships have a long line of electric furnaces because I didn't bother to use a beacon on them. Now there's a reason to bother.

[pkoynov]

Adjusted space platform drag to be based on weight rather than width.

Is there any way to quantify this in the UI ? I want to know what the platform top speed is going to be before I am ready to apply the thrust.

[Alfonse215]

Adjusted space platform drag to be based on weight rather than width.

Is there any way to quantify this in the UI ? I want to know what the platform top speed is going to be before I am ready to apply the thrust.

There was no way to know that, even under the old system. There were calculators where you could enter your thruster count, fluid flow, width, and weight to compute the max speed. Those calculators will have to be updated using the new formula.

[sarge945]

Good update, I'm just mildly sad that none of my modding interface requests were added , but that's to be expected really, they are so busy with so much already.

[nekicowek]

i must say i hate this patch.. all my ships are now way slower than before... narrow, wide, squarish ones.. all way way slower.. i resisted to engine stacking, now i feel like i am forced to do it, and that is really bad..
i understand there is logic behind this change, weight and not width should be the factor in first place, but balance is way off..
if it is because realism, than there should nod be any "top speed" at all, but just acceleration tied to thrust power vs weight.. having "top speed" is equally unrealistic as "width=drag" was..
hope it will be rebalanced soon..

Try rebalancing your ship first. The reason it is so slow is because it is so heavy. Before weight made no difference, so your ships are likely an unoptimized mess.

or maybe You could try to make any ship to reach at least similar speed as before, no matter the shape..
what makes You think my ships are "unoptimized mess"?
did You even think? did
You even try to make any ship in new patch?
rhetorical questions..
i am disappointed because this patch as it is now translates in overall NERF to ALL ship transport, and i am not only one noticed it..
as i said i never used stupid thruster stacking, and current balance kinda promotes it..

[M1k3y]

[*]Added "Read empty slots" option to container's, logistic container's and cargo landing pad's control behavior.

Can we get something similar for fluid storage? That would be really helpful for both my train system (to know if a station has enough capacity to unload a train-load / how many loads) and to automatically detect cloged fluid systems (like oil processing stopped because heavy oil is full).

I know that both can be handled already, but specifically the train scenario requires "static" configuration of the total available volume.

[powr_toch]

Perhaps a composite speed formula would have been better, e.g. 80% based on weight and 20% based on width.

[Tertius]

Having played a bit with my platforms, I feel the speed nerf is a bit too much. All designs, not just the tall designs, are running slower. Seems at least 10-15% no matter the design. The tall ones are much slower, but it happens for every design, even for very space efficient almost quadratic designs. You still have to use all available space for as many thrusters as possible, which reduces the freedom of platform design. What is the purpose of the initial change then?

In case a general speed nerf is desired this is ok, but in case the common designs should run at about the same speed as before, I suggest a change that will make ships run ~10% faster in general.

I'm asking this with promethium ships in mind. There is a delicate balance between egg expiration and time needed to reach the farming area with spoiling eggs in storage. It's taking longer now, especially with normal quality thrusters, so there's less time to perform farming and science production at the same time. Less time for this encourages promethium chunk collecting and storing again, which is a bad approach in my opinion.

[Chrisdasdasd]

I like this patch. And calculating spaceships via weight makes more sense in space compared to with.
Does the weight also apply to ship payload?

Will same system gets ported to trains?
Will LDS shuffle get nerfed like space casinos?
One can only hope.

PS. I would like to believe my bug report did contribute a little bit to empty slots feature in circuit network.

[Neutronium]

Weight over width makes perfect intuitive sense, but it kinda forces you into a new weird meta- either very wide or very long ships if you want faster speeds. This is probably a can of worms the devs don't feel like opening, but there should still be some items/mechanics that allow you to create a fairly normal proportioned platform and get serious speed out of it. Perhaps more thrust when there fuel/oxidiser is closer to full.