No change to Quality Science in 2.1 ?

[TheRailmaker]

I was really expecting a change to the ScienceValueMultiplier in 2.1.

The idea of making Quality Science (QS) looked interesting at first, but in almost every case, productivity modules outclass the benefit of QS by a lot. 10% free output is way more, than 2.5% quality (T3 module values).
Doesn't matter if on science production itself, or ingredients over longer chains. (yes, Q2-Q5 with thier values considered )

Since the 4 planets don't care about pollution and have free power anyway, the major disadvantage of red modules at start is lost. And with speedbeacons actually working against Quality, the endgame scaleability dies as well.

With the current ScienceValueMultiplier (1,2,3,4,6) barely anyone will actively use QS.

I know, there are some edgecases of Q2 usage for green and red (the cheapest sciences ) and some with Aquillo for the sake of transport, but im talking about the actual option to go for QS at a reasonable payoff anywhere.

A rought fair matchup by output between both module types in the last step would be factor 4 (1,5,9,13,21)

Even with that giant 4x, you end up with more work (more buildings,designing,recycling/voiding ,sorting,transport) , but you have the option to go down that path.

I hope for the Quality science factor to be raised to 4 -6 since its an interesting mechanic, but completly outclassed atm.

Here is the math, keep in mind, that its the same for intermediates and you need significantly less building with productiivity :

grafik.png (192.48 KiB) Viewed 902 times

[DaveMcW]

Uncommon Aquilo science is actually better than common. It's so easy to make quality ice and lithium plates. It takes so long to make Cryogenic science packs (common or uncommon).

Uncommon Vulcanus science is also easy with quality modules in the mining drills.

Uncommon Fulgora science uses slightly less holmium ore than common. Though the production chain is a lot harder. (Hint: upcycle electomagnetic plants.)

[mmmPI]

Here are examples of other uncommon science, blue purple and yellow that weren't changed with 2.1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gikrR2Xuvvs&t=689s

The space science was using space casino, though, so it is no longer usable in 2.1.

I think some players may have the same hopes for "quality science" to be balanced as a more viable choice in more situations, but could be unsure about what math would work for them or why (viewtopic.php?t=134869) .

I don't think satisfying those hopes is in the intent of the devs though , something about "quality being a ressource sink for marginally better machines".

But it's difficult to anticipate what a mass of player will settle on, i feel quality as an item has to exist, and has to have bonus attached, but it was choosen "low" to not be an incentive. Which leaves it as "edge case" as you mentionned. ( video shows a megabase ). I think the game could do with a less harsh penalty on quality science, for it to be tempting for more player.

You approach seems like it could work, and be more "moderate" than an exponential reward with each quality level, like in this mod : https://mods.factorio.com/mod/expon_quality_sci , which is the closest i found from what you describe, if it's more about lowering the threshold at which the optimizations considerations manifest, i feel it increase the depth of the game in a non-intrusive way, it's only for those who go seek for it, it's only positive from my side.

[TheRailmaker]

Here are examples of other uncommon science, blue purple and yellow that weren't changed with 2.1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gikrR2Xuvvs&t=689s

Yeah, i know the video. Its not bad, but i reached 1M SPS with like 10% ? of his work. 99% of users wont reach close to mining prod 1000 to start the Qmining recycling. Especialy not with Science cost multiplicator.



hes using it for science space density and UPS reasons. The UPS is also irrelevant to 99% of users. They wont drop below 50 unless they spamm trash.

The science space transport density was increased brutal with the cargo docks and Plattform transfers in 2.1.

And skiping whole mining outposts and the whole liquid metal thing for such shitty rates just hurts.

[Tertius]

I don't think satisfying those hopes is in the intent of the devs though , something about "quality being a ressource sink for marginally better machines".

But it's difficult to anticipate what a mass of player will settle on, i feel quality as an item has to exist, and has to have bonus attached, but it was choosen "low" to not be an incentive.

For many players, gaming is a min/max challenge. Progression in a game is connected with getting higher and higher tiers of items. The player at the top maximized every item with its maximum tier. These players go straight to the maximum tier everywhere to get up to the best player.

However, for quality science, this rule doesn't apply. The maximum tier of all-legendary-science isn't the best you can get in the game, since it is inferior to lower qualities due to extraordinary resource consumption. You need to find a balance between resource consumption and science research value. The maximum isn't all-legendary, it's somewhere lower. You cannot determine the maximum, so you cannot determine the best player. This seems to confuse many players.

In my opinion not the worst approach, because this way there is no upper limit you hit and then have nothing more to do in the game. The limit is somewhere lower, and you never know where exactly it is, and it's even a moving target as long as players find new ways to crafting quality items.

[mmmPI]

However, for quality science, this rule doesn't apply. The maximum tier of all-legendary-science isn't the best you can get in the game, since it is inferior to lower qualities due to extraordinary resource consumption. You need to find a balance between resource consumption and science research value. The maximum isn't all-legendary, it's somewhere lower. You cannot determine the maximum, so you cannot determine the best player. This seems to confuse many players.

No that has nothing to do with best players , factorio is puzzle game where you make science, which has a quality feature, legendary science is a proxy for the most complex puzzle, so there are players that will set that as their objective. At least that's how i read the suggestion and the further comment. Lamenting that currently if you do such things you are mostly punished, even regretting that there is no compelling reason in game to go for it. ( unless you have a large base and even then OP doesn't feel the need to go for it)

Yeah, i know the video. Its not bad, but i reached 1M SPS with like 10% ? of his work. 99% of users wont reach close to mining prod 1000 to start the Qmining recycling. Especialy not with Science cost multiplicator.

What's an SPS ? 1 million science per second ? That's fairly impressive ^^ now ususally people refers to the SPM without the science multiplicator, and otherwise eSPM for effective science per minutes if you account for modules, biolab and the research/science multiplicator.

hes using it for science space density and UPS reasons. The UPS is also irrelevant to 99% of users. They wont drop below 50 unless they spamm trash.

The science space transport density was increased brutal with the cargo docks and Plattform transfers in 2.1.

And skiping whole mining outposts and the whole liquid metal thing for such shitty rates just hurts.

You seen this one ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHrY1Rt ... _E&index=3

Cuz like that's the elephant in the room no ? you can't space casino anymore x) I guess it's the opposite of the direction you wished