Too many last minute changes?

[Eulenberg]

In my opinion, the "last minute changes" are mostly things not mentioned in FFF:

- Basic asteroid crushing change
- Hazard concrete change
- Railgun shooting speed change
- etc.

Since there wasn't an announcement in the previous FFF, I expected there will be another FFF before beta release, which made the changes "feel" last minute, even if some of them could have been merged a long time ago.

Anyway, it will take some play testing to really comprehend.

These changes are band-aid fixes on top of band-aid, that got thrown in last second for an fundamentally flawed system that’s is the quality mod itself, . its an unfinished and rushed approach to vertical scaling on engine base. Instead of admitting that the system is flawed and working on a revamp, they doubled down on it.
@Rseding91 suggesting to cheat in infinity chests, if you are not happy with the concrete changes, is just a ludicrous testament to this. The more 2.1 unfolds i get the feeling that there is a clear split in the dev team, a small minority of talent that still cares about factorio, and the rest that wants to finish factorio as fast as possible to move on to wowtorio. This is the reason we dont see any new ideas to engage with quality like quality seeds or quality mixing just to give some ideas that were given by the players, it to much work for to little gain, too much time wasted that could be spent on the next project. in 2.1 we have got some spare boons thrown, in order to overlook the bigger picture. the devs that want to move on ,understandable , for them its easier to make a part of the game feel miserable and claim it works now "as intended" to silence all the people that complain, then to come up with a real solution. being able to play without quality is just prove of that, some parts of the game are balanced around having faster inserters beacons and crafters for example, now they can say if you dont like it then disable it or install a mod/cheat like @Rseding91 suggests. I believe there was an attempt to even fix quality, but it turned out to be too much of an investment, thats why we didnt got the stand-alone recycler mod earlier. Factorio was a game that was developed along side its community for a majority of its lifespan, and deserves praise for this, but these time are long over. Not acknowledging, let alone engaging in conversation about or giving reason to any of the complains made to the changes, is prove.
The additional changes were "hidded from "/not talked about in the FFFs, to cover this whole misery.

[Necronium]

In my opinion, the "last minute changes" are mostly things not mentioned in FFF:

- Basic asteroid crushing change
- Hazard concrete change
- Railgun shooting speed change
- etc.

Since there wasn't an announcement in the previous FFF, I expected there will be another FFF before beta release, which made the changes "feel" last minute, even if some of them could have been merged a long time ago.

Anyway, it will take some play testing to really comprehend.

These changes are band-aid fixes on top of band-aid, that got thrown in last second for an fundamentally flawed system that’s is the quality mod itself, . its an unfinished and rushed approach to vertical scaling on engine base. Instead of admitting that the system is flawed and working on a revamp, they doubled down on it.
@Rseding91 suggesting to cheat in infinity chests, if you are not happy with the concrete changes, is just a ludicrous testament to this. The more 2.1 unfolds i get the feeling that there is a clear split in the dev team, a small minority of talent that still cares about factorio, and the rest that wants to finish factorio as fast as possible to move on to wowtorio. This is the reason we dont see any new ideas to engage with quality like quality seeds or quality mixing just to give some ideas that were given by the players, it to much work for to little gain, too much time wasted that could be spent on the next project. in 2.1 we have got some spare boons thrown, in order to overlook the bigger picture. the devs that want to move on ,understandable , for them its easier to make a part of the game feel miserable and claim it works now "as intended" to silence all the people that complain, then to come up with a real solution. being able to play without quality is just prove of that, some parts of the game are balanced around having faster inserters beacons and crafters for example, now they can say if you dont like it then disable it or install a mod/cheat like @Rseding91 suggests. I believe there was an attempt to even fix quality, but it turned out to be too much of an investment, thats why we didnt got the stand-alone recycler mod earlier. Factorio was a game that was developed along side its community for a majority of its lifespan, and deserves praise for this, but these time are long over. Not acknowledging, let alone engaging in conversation about or giving reason to any of the complains made to the changes, is prove.
The additional changes were "hidded from "/not talked about in the FFFs, to cover this whole misery.

Here you are as always complaining without any sensible solutions. You even managed to spread misinformation about devs, which looking at your behaviour on this forum shouldnt be surprising anymore. Just cause you are vocal minority complaining cause you have literal skill issue with quality it doesnt matter that most Factorio players have that.

Players were complaing that they can't disable quality from SA, they got that now and you pretend like devs don't listen to players just cause your wishes werent granted.

[Eulenberg]

In my opinion, the "last minute changes" are mostly things not mentioned in FFF:

- Basic asteroid crushing change
- Hazard concrete change
- Railgun shooting speed change
- etc.

Since there wasn't an announcement in the previous FFF, I expected there will be another FFF before beta release, which made the changes "feel" last minute, even if some of them could have been merged a long time ago.

Anyway, it will take some play testing to really comprehend.

These changes are band-aid fixes on top of band-aid, that got thrown in last second for an fundamentally flawed system that’s is the quality mod itself, . its an unfinished and rushed approach to vertical scaling on engine base. Instead of admitting that the system is flawed and working on a revamp, they doubled down on it.
@Rseding91 suggesting to cheat in infinity chests, if you are not happy with the concrete changes, is just a ludicrous testament to this. The more 2.1 unfolds i get the feeling that there is a clear split in the dev team, a small minority of talent that still cares about factorio, and the rest that wants to finish factorio as fast as possible to move on to wowtorio. This is the reason we dont see any new ideas to engage with quality like quality seeds or quality mixing just to give some ideas that were given by the players, it to much work for to little gain, too much time wasted that could be spent on the next project. in 2.1 we have got some spare boons thrown, in order to overlook the bigger picture. the devs that want to move on ,understandable , for them its easier to make a part of the game feel miserable and claim it works now "as intended" to silence all the people that complain, then to come up with a real solution. being able to play without quality is just prove of that, some parts of the game are balanced around having faster inserters beacons and crafters for example, now they can say if you dont like it then disable it or install a mod/cheat like @Rseding91 suggests. I believe there was an attempt to even fix quality, but it turned out to be too much of an investment, thats why we didnt got the stand-alone recycler mod earlier. Factorio was a game that was developed along side its community for a majority of its lifespan, and deserves praise for this, but these time are long over. Not acknowledging, let alone engaging in conversation about or giving reason to any of the complains made to the changes, is prove.
The additional changes were "hidded from "/not talked about in the FFFs, to cover this whole misery.

Here you are as always complaining without any sensible solutions. You even managed to spread misinformation about devs, which looking at your behaviour on this forum shouldnt be surprising anymore. Just cause you are vocal minority complaining cause you have literal skill issue with quality it doesnt matter that most Factorio players have that.

Players were complaing that they can't disable quality from SA, they got that now and you pretend like devs don't listen to players just cause your wishes werent granted.

People like you really think building a upcycle build involves any form of skill, that people who want a more engaging system instead are lacking, quite some elitist mindset sir.

The issue with quality is not that its to hard without casinos, i could not care less, i know that they are not needed. but the fact the system doesnt flow well with the rest of the game, on top of being repetitive and grindy.

I dont spread any misinformation, i clearly say this is my opinion/conclusion of what is going on right now, if that wasnt clear im doing it now! So tell me then why didnt we get that recycler mod earlier, why dont let the people disable quality, when they asked for it 1.5 years ago, why let them wait all that time? From what i know about the game it not really a big effort to make it stand-alone. I just said about these things what i really think about them, and i stand behind it, i even apologised at times when i could not see the bigger picture myself. As long as we are just thrown these changes without any additional context/reasoning or improvement, together with the fact that these changes are kind of "silently" moved in around the group of people who play stable and only read FFFs, i cant but make these conclusions.

The issue with quality is not that its to hard without casinos, i could not care less, i know that they are not needed. but the fact the system doesnt flow well with the rest of the game. on top of being repetitive and grindy.

[Necronium]

In my opinion, the "last minute changes" are mostly things not mentioned in FFF:

- Basic asteroid crushing change
- Hazard concrete change
- Railgun shooting speed change
- etc.

Since there wasn't an announcement in the previous FFF, I expected there will be another FFF before beta release, which made the changes "feel" last minute, even if some of them could have been merged a long time ago.

Anyway, it will take some play testing to really comprehend.

These changes are band-aid fixes on top of band-aid, that got thrown in last second for an fundamentally flawed system that’s is the quality mod itself, . its an unfinished and rushed approach to vertical scaling on engine base. Instead of admitting that the system is flawed and working on a revamp, they doubled down on it.
@Rseding91 suggesting to cheat in infinity chests, if you are not happy with the concrete changes, is just a ludicrous testament to this. The more 2.1 unfolds i get the feeling that there is a clear split in the dev team, a small minority of talent that still cares about factorio, and the rest that wants to finish factorio as fast as possible to move on to wowtorio. This is the reason we dont see any new ideas to engage with quality like quality seeds or quality mixing just to give some ideas that were given by the players, it to much work for to little gain, too much time wasted that could be spent on the next project. in 2.1 we have got some spare boons thrown, in order to overlook the bigger picture. the devs that want to move on ,understandable , for them its easier to make a part of the game feel miserable and claim it works now "as intended" to silence all the people that complain, then to come up with a real solution. being able to play without quality is just prove of that, some parts of the game are balanced around having faster inserters beacons and crafters for example, now they can say if you dont like it then disable it or install a mod/cheat like @Rseding91 suggests. I believe there was an attempt to even fix quality, but it turned out to be too much of an investment, thats why we didnt got the stand-alone recycler mod earlier. Factorio was a game that was developed along side its community for a majority of its lifespan, and deserves praise for this, but these time are long over. Not acknowledging, let alone engaging in conversation about or giving reason to any of the complains made to the changes, is prove.
The additional changes were "hidded from "/not talked about in the FFFs, to cover this whole misery.

Here you are as always complaining without any sensible solutions. You even managed to spread misinformation about devs, which looking at your behaviour on this forum shouldnt be surprising anymore. Just cause you are vocal minority complaining cause you have literal skill issue with quality it doesnt matter that most Factorio players have that.

Players were complaing that they can't disable quality from SA, they got that now and you pretend like devs don't listen to players just cause your wishes werent granted.

People like you really think building a upcycle build involves any form of skill, that people who want a more engaging system instead are lacking, quite some elitist mindset sir.

The issue with quality is not that its to hard without casinos, i could not care less, i know that they are not needed. but the fact the system doesnt flow well with the rest of the game, on top of being repetitive and grindy.

I dont spread any misinformation, i clearly say this is my opinion/conclusion of what is going on right now, if that wasnt clear im doing it now! So tell me then why didnt we get that recycler mod earlier, why dont let the people disable quality, when they asked for it 1.5 years ago, why let them wait all that time? From what i know about the game it not really a big effort to make it stand-alone. I just said about these things what i really think about them, and i stand behind it, i even apologised at times when i could not see the bigger picture myself. As long as we are just thrown these changes without any additional context/reasoning or improvement, together with the fact that these changes are kind of "silently" moved in around the group of people who play stable and only read FFFs, i cant but make these conclusions.

The issue with quality is not that its to hard without casinos, i could not care less, i know that they are not needed. but the fact the system doesnt flow well with the rest of the game. on top of being repetitive and grindy.

Since when playing the game is elitist midset? Strange standard you want to push here.

Funny that you say you don't care about casino but your activity on this forum says otherwise. And about misinformation, who is talking about Rseding here? Me or you?

And the cherry on top saying that something is repetitive in Factorio, Do you started playing this game last week? You change one item into another and if something is grindy you can make more thats entire point of this game. You could add "tedious" argument here to make it even more emotional one rather than logical.

[quineotio]

Wube held back changes they could have and should have released a long time ago in order to buy goodwill and distract from the fact they they aren't fixing/improving other parts of the game because they don't want to work on Factorio any more.

[Eulenberg]

Wube held back changes they could have and should have released a long time ago in order to buy goodwill and distract from the fact they they aren't fixing/improving other parts of the game because they don't want to work on Factorio any more.

this is the feeling i get from 2.1 so far, i hope im wrong, but i cant help myself to think thats whats going on here

[Kyralessa]

What changes do you believe were last minute and or what changes do you think are buggy and will need fixing?

I don't have any specific bugs right now.

So this is basically speculative complaining?

[sarge945]

So this is basically speculative complaining?

To be fair, if you invest early, the speculative complaining market on this forum is doing quite well right now, with plenty of room for growth and expansion.

[Eulenberg]

What changes do you believe were last minute and or what changes do you think are buggy and will need fixing?

I don't have any specific bugs right now.

So this is basically speculative complaining?

there are already examples of this, in game rn, the hub hp and res. buffs are a last minute band-aid fix, because apparently wube did not consider/account for anyone building platforms on a other orbit than nauvis, without these changes the hubs would get insta oneshot in vulcanus orbit for example, and also that system-edge does not allow for p2p logistics, em plants now need a pump to behave like in 2.0 for some recipes, etc pp. a lot of things are ether band-aid fixes or half baked concepts to distract from the fact the core issues will most likely not getting addressed

[sarge945]

I'm going to wait and see for a few weeks, but I suspect that some of these changes will grow on me, and others I will hate.

I think the best time to evaluate a new patch is when everyone has had a good chance to sit down and really figure it out.

I do think a follow up patch will be needed though, there's bound to be something that people are (rightly) unhappy with, and for good reasons. But we first need to get past the "Unnerf space casino!!!" and other knee-jerk initial reactions and really let everyone play the patch for a while.

[NineNine]

What changes do you believe were last minute and or what changes do you think are buggy and will need fixing?

I don't have any specific bugs right now.

So this is basically speculative complaining?

I haven't complained once. I don't know what you were reading. You may have me confused with somebody else. I was expressing concern that a lot of new changes were (seemingly) suddenly released just before/after the end of the project.

[meganothing]

...

I dont spread any misinformation, i clearly say this is my opinion/conclusion of what is going on right now, if that wasnt clear im doing it now! So tell me then why didnt we get that recycler mod earlier, why dont let the people disable quality, when they asked for it 1.5 years ago, why let them wait all that time?

Wasn't there an explanation in the FFF where they announced the change? Yes, found it:

" This was somewhat intentional, when designing 2.0 and feeling out the balancing, we knew some things would be tougher if you didn't have quality items, such as Space platform design. Having a few high quality solar panels, accumulators, or such, made a big impact on the effectivity of Platforms.

The other main sticking point was that you need the Recycler from Quality, on Fulgora, so not having Quality mod enabled means you couldn't progress on Fulgora. "

In my opinion making a mini-mod of the recycler is almost a hack and surely wasn't a change that the perfectionists at Wube accepted lightly. But it seems they felt it necessary to provide a setting for all players who don't like quality but use it because of some compulsion because it is there.

[quineotio]

In my opinion making a mini-mod of the recycler is almost a hack and surely wasn't a change that the perfectionists at Wube accepted lightly. But it seems they felt it necessary to provide a setting for all players who don't like quality but use it because of some compulsion because it is there.

It's such a weird change because you can just not research quality if you don't want to use it.

[Eulenberg]

...

I dont spread any misinformation, i clearly say this is my opinion/conclusion of what is going on right now, if that wasnt clear im doing it now! So tell me then why didnt we get that recycler mod earlier, why dont let the people disable quality, when they asked for it 1.5 years ago, why let them wait all that time?

Wasn't there an explanation in the FFF where they announced the change? Yes, found it:

" This was somewhat intentional, when designing 2.0 and feeling out the balancing, we knew some things would be tougher if you didn't have quality items, such as Space platform design. Having a few high quality solar panels, accumulators, or such, made a big impact on the effectivity of Platforms.

The other main sticking point was that you need the Recycler from Quality, on Fulgora, so not having Quality mod enabled means you couldn't progress on Fulgora. "

In my opinion making a mini-mod of the recycler is almost a hack and surely wasn't a change that the perfectionists at Wube accepted lightly. But it seems they felt it necessary to provide a setting for all players who don't like quality but use it because of some compulsion because it is there.

i think there were plans back when 2.0 to further revisit the quality mod, if im not wrong there was a FFF talking about that is a long term side project of kovarex that existed before 1.0 released even, but never finished, and that it was rushed together to get shipped with 2.0/SA. Arguments given on why we cant disable quality was not just the dependency, they claimed it was part of the indented SA "experience". but since the focus is shifting toward new projects its not worth to fix a system that needs a ground up revisit, not just a nerved casino or removed lds shuffle, these are just symptoms, not the reason. so they decided to throw a couple band-aid fixes at it and give people the option to disable it, so "you can disable it if you are not happy". But at the end, the price of the quality mod is included in the space age fee, and everyone who paid for SA deserves to get version that if worth enabling all its features, as you said i think too they went didnt take it lightly, but why are ppl want it to be disable-able so badly to begin with? when you just could not make a quality module ever, to begin with disables it effectively too? no part of the vanilla game force you to make a quality module ever, or have build in quality. one part being mods for sure, but i doubt that the majority of ppl who want to hard disable it are mod creators who make bigger space age overhaul mods that dont work with quality, its ppl who think its a fundamentally flawed system that does not archive what it suppose to be, to make a clear standing point that they dont like it as a whole and they are annoyed by the fact that the game reminds you about its existence at many points during a run.
Its not like they buffed the entities when you disable quality or anything, its just a hard disable option.
For me personally i get the bitter taste of the quality mod as a early access game that at some point was abandoned, and the devs spending time with new projects rather than, giving the costumers the game(in this case mod) they paid for and fixing its issues and ironing out the flaws.

[Loewchen]

if im not wrong there was a FFF talking about that is a long term side project of kovarex that existed before 1.0 released even, but never finished, and that it was rushed together to get shipped with 2.0/SA.

Quality was originally planned to be included in the 1.0 release but was late and deemed a risk for the milestone so it got put in the expansion instead. Quality itself was the first feature of the expansion and finished before the expansion was even announced.

[quineotio]

but since the focus is shifting toward new projects its not worth to fix a system that needs a ground up revisit, not just a nerved casino or removed lds shuffle, these are just symptoms, not the reason.

If I had to guess, quality is supposed to be a generic system that works seamlessly with mods, which is why it works the same way (basically) with every item. The downside of this is the multitude of weird corner cases and repetitive nature.

The fix imo is to develop different crafting chains for quality items, but that would require a lot of work coming up with new recipes and would not allow quality to work automatically in mods. But it would be cool to be able to increase science production through more complex crafting chains. At the moment there's not much point in making quality science because productivity modules give more science than quality modules, and also productivity is way easier.

At the very least it would be nice if e.g. holmium ore gave more holmium solution, or if quality holmium ore just didn't exist. Extended range on quality underground pipes would be cool too.

But I am disappointed there are no new ways to interact with quality.

E.g.

* A circuit condition to disable quality modules so you could turn off quality production without having to remove the modules.
* Removal of the speed module penalty - you're already being penalized on speed by the quality modules themselves.
* The ability to target a specific quality you want - i.e. only produce normal and rare quality. In real life you could just e.g. treat all uncommon as common and all epic/legendary as rare. One of the most annoying things is having to account for 5 different outputs EVERY TIME you put a quality module anywhere.
* Some way to change the quality other than by passing through a recycler. It's so weird that recycling things can make them better. In a way it's elegant in it's simplicity, but in another way it just feels broken.

But I guess there's no point in making suggestions.

[Hurkyl]

but since the focus is shifting toward new projects its not worth to fix a system that needs a ground up revisit, not just a nerved casino or removed lds shuffle, these are just symptoms, not the reason.

If I had to guess, quality is supposed to be a generic system that works seamlessly with mods, which is why it works the same way (basically) with every item. The downside of this is the multitude of weird corner cases and repetitive nature.

The fix imo is to develop different crafting chains for quality items, but that would require a lot of work coming up with new recipes and would not allow quality to work automatically in mods. But it would be cool to be able to increase science production through more complex crafting chains. At the moment there's not much point in making quality science because productivity modules give more science than quality modules, and also productivity is way easier.

From FFF #375, they explain

We wanted to make a system for semi-automated higher tiers of everything without the need to multiply all the recipes.
Generally, just adding a huge amount of recipes isn't really adding to the game at this point, as we feel that the game already has enough, especially when we consider Space Age specific ones not yet revealed.

At the same time, we wanted to add some complexity, and also, make the related complications explicitly opt-in.
This is how we came up with the idea of the new type of module, the quality modules.

[hub1234hub]

I think it's great the Wube has decided that it's time to wrap up Factorio. At some point, software should be complete. But the number of last minute changes they're making right now is sort of ridiculous. All of these significant changes are going to introduce a not insignificant number of bugs, too.

I personaly think it's great that Wube has decided to make some major updates, when I put to concideration 2.1 update, but I must say I hate the new space casino ban.

Space casino is a way how to get simply better quality and players get used to it and I think it is too big change that should players dicide.
Crushing with quality is something that is not nonsence, and this way players will just use reciclator insted. Also I red several discusions and I mostly saw that players want to keep space casinos.

[Hurkyl]

I think it's great the Wube has decided that it's time to wrap up Factorio. At some point, software should be complete. But the number of last minute changes they're making right now is sort of ridiculous. All of these significant changes are going to introduce a not insignificant number of bugs, too.

I personaly think it's great that Wube has decided to make some major updates, when I put to concideration 2.1 update, but I must say I hate the new space casino ban.

Space casino is a way how to get simply better quality and players get used to it and I think it is too big change that should players dicide.
Crushing with quality is something that is not nonsence, and this way players will just use reciclator insted. Also I red several discusions and I mostly saw that players want to keep space casinos.

The discussions where people discussed whether it was overpowered and the people using it felt it was probably going to get nerfed were spread out over the past year or so.

With the nerf actually happening, motivation to bring the issue back up and energy to rehash the debate is going to be heavily biased towards people who want to keep the casino.

[mmmPI]

I think it's great the Wube has decided that it's time to wrap up Factorio. At some point, software should be complete. But the number of last minute changes they're making right now is sort of ridiculous. All of these significant changes are going to introduce a not insignificant number of bugs, too.

I personaly think it's great that Wube has decided to make some major updates, when I put to concideration 2.1 update, but I must say I hate the new space casino ban.

Space casino is a way how to get simply better quality and players get used to it and I think it is too big change that should players dicide.
Crushing with quality is something that is not nonsence, and this way players will just use reciclator insted. Also I red several discusions and I mostly saw that players want to keep space casinos.

The discussions where people discussed whether it was overpowered and the people using it felt it was probably going to get nerfed were spread out over the past year or so.

With the nerf actually happening, motivation to bring the issue back up and energy to rehash the debate is going to be heavily biased towards people who want to keep the casino.

This or maybe just players that didn't care at all realizing something they liked was removed and they express their displease lol, i don't see many people say it's great that casino are now removed, i think because those people already didn't used casino in the past, and thus there are not many, the decision seem unpopular to me and i don't see a need for another framing but hey at least you can't say it's a last minute change because this and LDS were reported very early at the release of 2.0, it's on the contrary, one of the most delayed balance change ever lol, so much so that people started to grow accustom to them and now miss them.