Quality Flamethrower Turrets Aren't Actually An Upgrade

[macdjord]

TL;DR

The attributes of a flamethrower turret that are upgraded by quality are mostly useless. They should be given some other buffs instead.

What?

Quality boosts three things on a flamethrower turret: HP, range, and the duration of the DOT burning effect. However, these things 'bonuses' aren't actually very useful:

• Higher HP obviously means the turret will last longer while under attack. With gun and laser turrets, this can be very useful, since that means that in the case of a wall breach they last long enough to kill the attackers anyway - or, if you're on using them the offensive, you might not have walls at all. Flamethrowers, on the other hand, have a limited firing arc and a minimum range, which means if a biter gets in range to chew on them, there's nothing they, nor any other flamethrowers in the same defensive line, can do about it. Meanwhile, since their ammo is liquid, they're impractical to use on the offensive at all. Technically more HP means they work better as damage sponges, giving more time for non-flamethrower defenses to do something, but this still greatly reduces the value of the extra HP.
• Longer range means the turret can start firing sooner! But unlike bullets and laser beams, which are hitscan, flamethrower sprays have travel time, and the turrets don't lead their targets. Which means no matter when it starts firing, it won't actually hit what its aiming for until the target reaches the walls and stops moving. Now, these attacks can hit other biters in the same attack group, but flamethrowers do so much damage, especially via their DOT effect, that anything hit like this is effectively dead already, and biters in the same group generally move around the same speed, so starting sooner just means pouring more fire into a target that's already dead. Again, technically there's a marginal benefit to the increased range, but again it is very small compared to the benefit other turrets gain from the same buff.
• A longer-lasting DOT should mean more damage to hard targets. However, even normal quality flamethrowers have a 30s duration on their 'ignited' DOT, and being ignited does 100dps, for a total of 3000 damage, which is already enough to kill a behemoth biter, which is the most durable mobile enemy on Nauvis. Some of the worms and nests have enough HP and fire resistance to potentially survive a 30s burn, but a) again, flamethrowers are not usually an offensive tool, and b) unlike attack groups, which can potentially have many dozens of targets and thus killing in one hit matters a lot, you're never going to have more than a handful of static structures in range at a time, so having to reapply the DOT periodically is not a hardship. Some of the larger Stomper pentapods on Gleba also have the HP to survive the standard DOT duration, but such enemies can also walk over walls, which means if they are still alive after 30s you've already lost the fight.
• Actually, the Factoriopedia entry for flamethrower turrets isn't very clear; it says that quality boost 'burn duration', and I've been assuming that meant the duration of the 'on fire' DOT, but it could mean the duration of the 'puddle of flame' AOE that gets left behind on the ground when the flamethrower hit, which also has a maximum duration of 30s. If this is the case, well, a longer-lasting AOE should mean more damage to large attack groups as later enemies run into the puddles of fire left behind while firing at the earlier ones. However, the base value of 30s is already enough that most attacks will be over before the first flames go out. In fact, a longer AOE duration is mostly a negative, since it means the fires are more likely to still be burning when the construction bots arrive to repair the walls, causing them to burn to death!

Now, as for what Quality bonuses flamethrower turrets should get instead, I'm not sure. Some ideas:

• Increased splash area on the stream
• Increased DOT rate of damage
• Improved tracking or a faster-moving fire stream so it actually can hit targets that are moving; this would then allow the range bonus to actually matter
• Reduced the minimum range, allowing the turret to better defend itself in case of a wall breach
• Reduced friendly fire from their AOE, so they are less likely to kill bots

Another option would be to reduce the base duration and DPS of the 'burning' DOT so that it doesn't one-shot everything even at common quality. I'm not sure how you'd balance this, though; the jump in HP from big to behemoth biters and spitters is so large that either behemoths would be the only targets that require more than one shot even at common quality, or their DPS is so low that common flamethrowers can't effectively kill behemoths at all which would rather suck for non-Space-Age players.

Why?

Because quality items should be better, and currently, quality flamethrowers aren't.

[Hurkyl]

FWIW, you're overlooking s a few effects of range:

An uncommon flamethrower turret can be placed so that it satisfies both of the following properties:

• It is far enough back from the wall that spitters can't target it
• It is close enough to the wall that it can hit spitters attacking the wall from max range

With longer range comes a smaller curvature of the firing arc, so that turrets don't need to be packed as closely together to get full max-range coverage. (or however many tiles off max range you're willing to sacrifice)

And, of course, when turret range is significantly more than the distance you need it to cover, you get to use more of the lateral width of the firing arc (and, the arc is that much wider to begin with) so you double dip on being able to spread turrets out and cover a wall with fewer turrets.

[macdjord]

FWIW, you're overlooking s a few effects of range:

An uncommon flamethrower turret can be placed so that it satisfies both of the following properties:

• It is far enough back from the wall that spitters can't target it
• It is close enough to the wall that it can hit spitters attacking the wall from max range

This is true, but ultimately doesn't actually matter. Long ago, the first time I was designing a flamethrower-based defensive wall blueprint, long before Quality even existed, I realized that you couldn't build a wall where both those things were true. I agonized over whether to go with a design where the most distant wall was still close enough to the turrets that even behemoth spitters would be forced to enter range, thus guaranteeing I could always kill them but putting my turrets at risk of being killed even without a wall breach, vs. putting the innermost wall far enough away that my turrets were always safe but risking a spitter sitting there, forever taking pot-shots against my wall while being out of reach of my defenses.

In the end, I went with the second option. And in the years since then, you know how many times I've actually seen a spitter attack my walls from outside turret range? Not a one. However Wube coded their attack logic, they just don't start attacking walls until they're close enough for the turrets to hit.

With longer range comes a smaller curvature of the firing arc, so that turrets don't need to be packed as closely together to get full max-range coverage. (or however many tiles off max range you're willing to sacrifice)

And, of course, when turret range is significantly more than the distance you need it to cover, you get to use more of the lateral width of the firing arc (and, the arc is that much wider to begin with) so you double dip on being able to spread turrets out and cover a wall with fewer turrets.

Also true, but Quality turrets are much, much more expensive. It's much cheaper to just use more normal turrets than to use fewer uncommon ones, let alone rare or better.

[computeraddict]

Higher HP obviously means the turret will last longer while under attack. With gun and laser turrets, this can be very useful,

There are strategies that involve sticking flamethrower turrets in a narrow pocket but in front of the wall to encourage the biters to ignore the walls. This is usually paired with laser or gun turrets behind to deal with the first biters down the chute. Flamethrower turrets are also the tankiest of the non-artillery vanilla turrets, so it actually works really well for this strategy.

[macdjord]

Higher HP obviously means the turret will last longer while under attack. With gun and laser turrets, this can be very useful,

There are strategies that involve sticking flamethrower turrets in a narrow pocket but in front of the wall to encourage the biters to ignore the walls. This is usually paired with laser or gun turrets behind to deal with the first biters down the chute. Flamethrower turrets are also the tankiest of the non-artillery vanilla turrets, so it actually works really well for this strategy.

But why? You want the biters attacking your walls, because walls have lots of HP and are cheap to replace if they die. Flamethrowers may have more HP total, but they are way more expensive, and also much larger meaning more biters can nibble on them at the same time.

Anycase, this is, at best, a niche use which really doesn't make up for the quality flamethrowers lack of advantages. Heck, even with the more conventional turrets, the extra HP is a secondary bonus, with the real value being the extra range (and, for tesla turrets, higher fork chance).

[angramania]

Longer range allows some creative uses of flamethrower turrets. Which extends their usefulness beyond trivial defense on Nauvis. You are not using them these ways? No problem, just use normal quality FT, they are more than enough for your usecase.

[computeraddict]

But why? You want the biters attacking your walls, because walls have lots of HP and are cheap to replace if they die.

Because with the setup I described, they usually hit absolutely nothing.

[macdjord]

But why? You want the biters attacking your walls, because walls have lots of HP and are cheap to replace if they die.

Because with the setup I described, they usually hit absolutely nothing.

I'm not understanding how this setup works, then.

[computeraddict]

I'm not understanding how this setup works, then.

It's abuse of the enemy AI. If they can path to a turret they prefer doing that over attacking walls, so they enter the fatal funnel to approach the flamethrower turret. While doing so the flamethrower turret coats the whole corridor in fire, causing all the enemies behind the first few to die. A few direct fire turrets kill the leaders that outran the fire.

[macdjord]

I'm not understanding how this setup works, then.

It's abuse of the enemy AI. If they can path to a turret they prefer doing that over attacking walls, so they enter the fatal funnel to approach the flamethrower turret. While doing so the flamethrower turret coats the whole corridor in fire, causing all the enemies behind the first few to die. A few direct fire turrets kill the leaders that outran the fire.

Ah, okay, that strategy. Though I'll note that, with that system, if the enemy ever actually gets to the lure turret, things have gone badly wrong, so said turret having extra HP isn't much of a benefit.

[FasterJump]

How about projectile speed upgrades?