[2.0.20] Bacteria cultivation doesn't see bacteria as catalyst

[kitters]

In version 0.16-0.17 were introdused 'catalysts' mechanic. Catalyst is a product of recipe that is also an ingridient. Like coal liquefaction (heavy oil), Kovarex process (235). Catalysts were no longer be shown in production statistics, and that let productivity be used in such recipes - so instead of 41 more U-235 (which is absurd and was never the case) you get 1 more when purple productivity line is filled because other 40 is catalyst.

[2.0.20] version:
But bacteria cultivation doesn't seem to see bacteria as catalysts. Because when purple line fills, a biochamber gives 4 more bacteria, not 3 as it should. Since 1 bacteria is catalyst.
Maybe people forgot to update mechanic of catalysts when a 'natural' productivity was introduced. Not from modules, like of biochamber and other new buildings... So maybe there are others new recipes with this problem I haven't encountered yet.

[evanrinehart]

This was added to the wiki a day later for bacteria

Note: productivity outputs for bacteria cultivation are 4 bacteria rather than the usual net gain used by catalytic recipes. This means that if you set a Stack inserter's hand size to 4 (and filter it on just bacteria), it will make full stacks of bacteria.

I for one hope this is "not a bug". I want to have all the reasons to like gleba as I can get!

[boskid]

Hm.... i could fix that, i will ask in our game design channel about this, it always felt gleba is too easy.

-- edit:

Given this is already recognized and described on factorio wiki, i am going to move this to Not a bug.

[Hares]

This was added to the wiki a day later for bacteria

Note: productivity outputs for bacteria cultivation are 4 bacteria rather than the usual net gain used by catalytic recipes. This means that if you set a Stack inserter's hand size to 4 (and filter it on just bacteria), it will make full stacks of bacteria.

I for one hope this is "not a bug". I want to have all the reasons to like gleba as I can get!

Yes, bacteria is not a catalyst.
You take one bacteria. You feed it. It growths. It splits. (Also, that's the reason why both new bacterias are 100% fresh). Prod modules (and built-in biochamber +50% prod) just distribute the food in a more efficient way, but since there's no way to consume less ingredients per crafting cycle, they instead produce more.

[Muche]

Given this is already recognized and described on factorio wiki, i am going to move this to Not a bug.

I thought wiki is descriptive, not prescriptive.
That is, if I were to add a note for Selector combinator that its circuit wire reach is 13 (because it is so in 2.0.24), I doubt it will cause you to revert 124285.

[kitters]

Hm.... i could fix that, i will ask in our game design channel about this, it always felt gleba is too easy.

-- edit:

Given this is already recognized and described on factorio wiki, i am going to move this to Not a bug.

Don't know why someone decided to describe on a wiki reported bug a day later after report. And why this is a reason to consider this not to be a bug anymore.

If Gleba needs further balancing, tweak some constants. But please be consistent with core mechanics, like catalyst.

[IsaacOscar]

Hm.... i could fix that, i will ask in our game design channel about this, it always felt gleba is too easy.

I hope that was sarcadm as Gleba is way harder than Vulcanus and Fulgora, yet it's just as easy to get to.

[boskid]

I hope that was sarcadm as Gleba is way harder than Vulcanus and Fulgora, yet it's just as easy to get to.

It was a sarcasm... Or was it?

The answer from our game design is that we consider bacteria cultivation not using catalysts as being intended.

[kitters]

The answer from our game design is that we consider bacteria cultivation not using catalysts as being intended.

Well I guess not big deal breaking this mechanic sinse it isn't even mentioned in game itself, only in wikipidea. Just a tiny exception for an unwritten rule.

By the way, if I remember correctly catalysts mechanics also influences production statistic. Like it was weird before implementing catalysts to reflect in statistics thait 41 U-235 is produced when in fact only 1 is. I guess it isn't so important for bacteria? After all, who even monitors statistic, right? *sacrasm*

[boskid]

Catalyst logic is not something that has to be followed in 100% of cases. We can say that the new bacterias given are different ones than the one that was taken from the input and so 1 should be counted as consumed and 4 as produced. There are ways to change the statistics behavior without affecting productivity behavior if we would want to.

[IsaacOscar]

Interestingly, pentapod eggs don't have this behaviour (productivity only gives you 1 egg, not 2).
Which is strange as the recipe is conceptually the same thing (in particular the resulting eggs are 100% fresh)
Is that case also correct?


Also FYI, asteroid crushing with productivity will give you extra asteroid chunks back (not sure if this is intentional either), whereas the Kovarex Enrichment Process which also refunds part of it's ingredients (the Uranium-238) doesn't give you extra refunds with productivity.

[Muche]

I view it as catalysts (eggs, uranium) survive the recipe unchanged, whereas ingredient bacteria and chunks don't survive the recipe, the outputs are all freshly made.
It's not a perfect view, because then there should be two kinds of output eggs - one with spoiling time unchanged and one fresh. That requires extra explanation that its freshness was due to feeding it nutrients.

[IsaacOscar]

I view it as catalysts (eggs, uranium) survive the recipe unchanged, whereas ingredient bacteria and chunks don't survive the recipe, the outputs are all freshly made.
It's not a perfect view, because then there should be two kinds of output eggs - one with spoiling time unchanged and one fresh. That requires extra explanation that its freshness was due to feeding it nutrients.

So a pentapod egg lays a single fresh egg,
but a bacteria splits into four fresh bacteria?

I just wish things where consistent and easily understood, as you currently have to actually test to see what effect productivity has, there's no way to work it out if you don't already know.

[Hares]

Interestingly, pentapod eggs don't have this behaviour (productivity only gives you 1 egg, not 2).
Which is strange as the recipe is conceptually the same thing (in particular the resulting eggs are 100% fresh)
Is that case also correct?

See also: 124291: [SA] On recipes with `result_is_always_fresh==true`, show "100% fresh" note