Promethium science is too easy to cheese

[quineotio]

Oh, it's slow. A trip takes more than an hour, but this is specifically due to weaponry and how the asteroid collectors are located on my cheeseship (see image).
I'm not going to optimize this design before I know whether it will be patched.

So it's slower than the way I'm doing it. I way overbuilt for the task, so I could optimize a lot. I was in two minds if I wanted to try to take the ship to the shattered planet, so it's easily self sustaining - though I'm not sure how well the defenses will hold up - haven't tried yet. But I'm confident I could design something under 1,000 tonnes, and with more thrusters.

ship.png (1.49 MiB) Viewed 2235 times

[ichVII]

2) It should be impossible to store biter eggs in an unspoilable form. Make overgrowth soil recycle into itself, so biter eggs can’t be extracted back out of it. Landfill actually recycles into itself, so it wouldn’t be unprecedented. There is, however, one very odd alternate possibility here, which requires some more thought: Productivity 3 modules can also be recycled for biter eggs. Compared to overgrowth soil, they are extremely expensive and offer terrible storage density, so I doubt anyone would be crazy enough to try to use them as a storage method, but you never know… In case this method shows signs of being viable, then the issue can be solved by manually removing biter eggs from the module’s recycling recipe. It’s not elegant, and I hope it doesn’t become necessary, but it would accomplish its mission…

Removing the ability to recyle stuff into biter eggs also remove the ability to get higher quality biter eggs, which makes higher quality prod mod 3s WAY harder, as you can only craft them from normal ingredients. Your "fix" has a very significant downside, which you entirely fail to mention.

[Zymoran]

So it's slower than the way I'm doing it.

You are comparing a ship with 7 (5 frontal) collectors to one that has only 2 on the sides. You have significantly more chunk grabs than me, which is the only reason why yours is faster. And that has nothing to do with overgrowth recycling being slow, so I don't know what point you are making.

The cheeseship design (which is half the size of yours by the way) trivializes the spoiling challenge.

If you want a contest about who can make the most spm or reach the shattered planet the fastest, we can do that. But that was not the point of this thread.

Removing the ability to recyle stuff into biter eggs also remove the ability to get higher quality biter eggs

Nonsense.
You can recycle biter eggs into itself. And that is probably the most practical way to get quality eggs anyway.

[quineotio]

So it's slower than the way I'm doing it.

You are comparing a ship with 7 (5 frontal) collectors to one that has only 2 on the sides. You have significantly more chunk grabs than me, which is the only reason why yours is faster. And that has nothing to do with overgrowth recycling being slow, so I don't know what point you are making.

The cheeseship design (which is half the size of yours by the way) trivializes the spoiling challenge.

If you want a contest about who can make the most spm or reach the shattered planet the fastest, we can do that. But that was not the point of this thread.

The point is that while you can "cheese" it, it's not actually better. You're right, my ship is way bigger - way bigger than needed. Just like yours it's not optimized for the task - it was my first attempt.

I don't know why you brought up overgrowth recycling, I never mentioned it. But if you're saying that taking overgrowth soil and recycling it is cheese, I don't think it is. You have to make the soil and have a way to recycle it, which is added complexity, and more expensive. I certainly don't think the devs need to change the game because you don't like doing something you don't have to do.

[Sopel]

Is this actually viable? I can process 50k biter eggs on a single trip, can't see myself recycling 20k overgrowth soil an hour.

[quineotio]

Is this actually viable? I can process 50k biter eggs on a single trip, can't see myself recycling 20k overgrowth soil an hour.

Wow, ok, so obviously I have some optimization to do

[Zymoran]

I don't know why you brought up overgrowth recycling, I never mentioned it.

Refer to OP's post

You're right, my ship is way bigger - way bigger than needed. Just like yours it's not optimized for the task - it was my first attempt.

I don't know what we're even arguing about if not OP's points. My cheeseship was also my first exo design. That has nothing to do with the topic either

The point is that while you can "cheese" it, it's not actually better.

Yes, that would seem to be your opinion.

Is this actually viable? I can process 50k biter eggs on a single trip, can't see myself recycling 20k overgrowth soil an hour.

Certainly viable - why wouldn't it be? Overgrowth doesn't spoil.
Haven't reached 20k/trip yet, but will get there unless it gets patched.

[quineotio]

I don't know what we're even arguing about if not OP's points. My cheeseship was also my first exo design. That has nothing to do with the topic either

I am arguing the OPs points - you're the one making it a personal thing about your ship design vs mine.

Yes, that would seem to be your opinion.

Sure - same as you I have an opinion. But if the argument being made is "this slower and more costly way of doing things needs to be patched because I have no self control and can't do it any other way unless I'm forced to", that's a weird argument.

[Zymoran]

I am arguing the OPs points - you're the one making it a personal thing about your ship design vs mine.

I never initiated any discussion about your design. It was you and only you who started that part of the discussion:

How long does it take for a round trip?

I take 1k biter eggs with me and the round trip takes about 30 mins, so that's about 25k prometheum chunks per trip or 50k an hour. But this is only with 3 captive biter spawners, so the eggs are about a third spoiled - and there are some other inefficiencies. I'm confident that I could take 1.5k eggs, or about 75k per hour, just by slightly refining my current setup. I'm not sure yet, but I might even be able to go to 2k eggs if I have a bunch of spawners so that I have fresher eggs, maybe even more - haven't tested yet.

This is the first time I've tried this, and my ship isn't perfect. I know how to make it better, so I'm fairly sure I could push this number higher - I'm not sure that 150k prometheum chunks used per hour is out of reach if I really optimize.

I am really curious if your way is faster.

Sure - same as you I have an opinion. But if the argument being made is "this slower and more costly way of doing things needs to be patched ...

The way you concluded recycling overgrowth being slower is still a big mystery to me. But at least you bring a proper argument, which is that the overgrowth cheese is more costly. My rebut being that the convenience of non-spoiling payload is worth the additional cost.

I have no self control and can't do it any other way unless I'm forced to", that's a weird argument.

Whoa. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one.

[quineotio]

I never initiated any discussion about your design. It was you and only you who started that part of the discussion:

Except that if you read what you quoted you'd see that I was comparing methodology. You confused that to be about my design vs yours.

Whoa. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one.

I disagree:

Every time I bring back 100k promethium science with my cheeseship, it leaves me the same taste in my mouth as when I do tax evasion.

I'm not going to optimize this design before I know whether it will be patched.

As to this:

The way you concluded recycling overgrowth being slower is still a big mystery to me.

Arguably it's not, but with regard to speed I was referring to storing a large number of prometheum chunks - see OPs first point. If your ship is half as fast, it needs to process twice as much. I'm not sure storing chunks is ever the most effective way to do it, and even if it was, it'd still require a lot of work to set up, which I think disqualifies it as "cheese that needs to be patched".

overgrowth cheese is more costly. My rebut being that the convenience of non-spoiling payload is worth the additional cost.

So why does this need to be patched? Seems like there's a tradeoff. My point is that the thing the OP wants changed is not actually a problem, because:

1: it's not actually the best strategy
2: it's way more costly

And also, even if it was the best strategy:
* it doesn't effect you because no-one is forcing you to do anything.
* it's difficult even in it's easiest possible form. Keep in mind that many people haven't even launched a rocket in vanilla Factorio. And here's you arguing that the ability to build 20k overgrowth soil and recycle it to nullify spoilage is such a cheesy strategy that the devs need to patch the game to make it impossible. Have some perspective.

[Zymoran]

It was you, and only you who used the comparative spm of the ships as a part of your argument, and you are doing it explicitly:

So it's slower than the way I'm doing it.

And it's totally irrelevant to the topic because the spm is not linked to the method (overgrowth vs spoilable eggs), unless you are arguing that the recycler being slow.

I have no self control and can't do it any other way unless I'm forced to", that's a weird argument.

Whoa. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one.

I disagree

No, you can keep your ad hominem straw man.

Me enjoying the some part of the game less due to some potentially unintended method being more practical, has nothing to do with those remarks of yours whatsoever. Both the ad hominem straw man and me/OP caring how other people play the game are pure projections of yours. Stick to what's being said, and not how you assume other people think.

-

Back to the relevant part of the discussion:

2: it's way more costly

The cost of overgrowth:
- Seed (free due to high productivity, double up because there are two sorts)
- Spoilage (practically free, at least in my design)
- Biter egg (practically free)
- Nutrients (practically free)
- Landfill (trivial to make, feels cheap since 2.0 grants very high mining productivity with only 8% drain)
So while more costly, I will assert that it is not "way" more costly since most ingredients are free byproducts.

Keep in mind that many people haven't even launched a rocket in vanilla Factorio. And here's you arguing that the ability to build 20k overgrowth soil and recycle it to nullify spoilage is such a cheesy strategy that the devs need to patch the game to make it impossible. Have some perspective.

It should be evident that none of my arguments involve other players' experience with the game.
Furthermore, I did not say the developers need to fix this (again a projection of yours). I said that the mechanics feel cheesy, and that it would be good to know if it will be fixed or if it is a design decision. I will accept either.

It would be good if the developers can either patch both 1) and 2), or confirm this to be a design decision.

Whether the developers intended promethium science to be
a) a challenge about speed and efficiency
b) brute force with belt-weaving storage or overgrowth soil
is only to be determined by developers/moderators who are yet to make a statement on this.

[quineotio]

It was you, and only you who used the comparative spm of the ships as a part of your argument, and you are doing it explicitly:

Comparative SPM of the METHOD. It's you who keeps confusing this.

And it's totally irrelevant to the topic because the spm is not linked to the method

SPM is related to the first point the OP made, about storing lots of chunks.

No, you can keep your ad hominem straw man.

They're your words I'm quoting.

[CyberCider]

As to this:

The way you concluded recycling overgrowth being slower is still a big mystery to me.

Arguably it's not, but with regard to speed I was referring to storing a large number of prometheum chunks - see OPs first point. If your ship is half as fast, it needs to process twice as much. I'm not sure storing chunks is ever the most effective way to do it, and even if it was, it'd still require a lot of work to set up, which I think disqualifies it as "cheese that needs to be patched".

overgrowth cheese is more costly. My rebut being that the convenience of non-spoiling payload is worth the additional cost.

So why does this need to be patched? Seems like there's a tradeoff. My point is that the thing the OP wants changed is not actually a problem, because:

1: it's not actually the best strategy
2: it's way more costly

And also, even if it was the best strategy:
* it doesn't effect you because no-one is forcing you to do anything.
* it's difficult even in it's easiest possible form. Keep in mind that many people haven't even launched a rocket in vanilla Factorio. And here's you arguing that the ability to build 20k overgrowth soil and recycle it to nullify spoilage is such a cheesy strategy that the devs need to patch the game to make it impossible. Have some perspective.

Sure, soil is “costly”, but it’s simple. All you need to do is scale up production, not design anything special. That’s the issue. You get to sacrifice raw resources to dodge complexity. And in this case, said resources are renewable anyway, making it even easier. I think that’s lame.
And regarding the potential inefficiency of belt storage: I sincerely do hope that is the case
If it really is weaker in terms of SPM per platform, then it’s pretty much ok. This whole time I was (and still am) under the impression that it’s completely equivalent to other methods. Simpler+Less efficient=Ok, but Simpler+Equally efficient=Unbalanced.
But soil recycling has absolutely no excuse, that one has to go no matter what.

[quineotio]

Sure, soil is “costly”, but it’s simple. All you need to do is scale up production, not design anything special.

I disagree on both points. It's less simple than taking eggs because you have two extra processes - making the soil and recycling it. And the idea "all you need to do" is not really applicable. You need seeds for soil - and you'll need a LOT of them, which means a large factory on Gleba. You also need a LOT of stone, which is scarce on Gleba, so you'll need a factory elsewhere to be involved. So you'll be managing a supply chain across multiple planets, rather than just gathering eggs (which you have to do anyway to make overgrowth soil).

Recyclers only return 25%, so you'll need 4 overgrowth soil to get 10 eggs on average.

Overgrowth soil:
5 seeds
50 spoilage
10 biter eggs
2 normal soil

10x Normal soil:
2 seeds
50 nutrients (10 per overgrowth)
5 landfill (1 per overgrowth)

My current setup processes 1000 biter eggs every 27 minutes, so for simplicity let's say 1000 per 30 mins or 2000 per hour.

You'd need 8000 overgrowth soil per hour to match this, which is 40,000 seeds per hour (plus extra for the normal soil). My Gleba base produced 1,500 seeds last hour, and looking back at maximum production for this entire playthrough it was only about 2,000 per hour. I don't have a big base but it does produce everything I need and produces ~400 science per minute, but I'd need to scale up 20 times larger just to meet the seed needs.

There's also the 40,000 stone for the landfill, 80,000 nutrients and 400,000 spoilage. Per hour. And you need 4,000 biter eggs instead of the 1,000 I need.

And this is just to match my first attempt, with only 3 biter nests producing eggs and a ship I didn't specifically design for this task (am planning to attempt a trip to the shattered planet), and before I've refined anything.

You need nutrients, so you either have to ship biter eggs to Gleba, or make nutrients on Nauvis, and ship the seeds where you need them, and deal with the recycling on the platform. None of this can be dismissed with "all you have to do". It's way, way more work to match my first attempt to get something that even functions.

[BraveCaperCat]

Why can't you just store promethium in the space platform hub... Isn't that a worse exploit than just storing it on the belts?

[CyberCider]

Sure, soil is “costly”, but it’s simple. All you need to do is scale up production, not design anything special.

I disagree on both points. It's less simple than taking eggs because you have two extra processes - making the soil and recycling it. And the idea "all you need to do" is not really applicable. You need seeds for soil - and you'll need a LOT of them, which means a large factory on Gleba. You also need a LOT of stone, which is scarce on Gleba, so you'll need a factory elsewhere to be involved. So you'll be managing a supply chain across multiple planets, rather than just gathering eggs (which you have to do anyway to make overgrowth soil).

Recyclers only return 25%, so you'll need 4 overgrowth soil to get 10 eggs on average.

Overgrowth soil:
5 seeds
50 spoilage
10 biter eggs
2 normal soil

10x Normal soil:
2 seeds
50 nutrients (10 per overgrowth)
5 landfill (1 per overgrowth)

My current setup processes 1000 biter eggs every 27 minutes, so for simplicity let's say 1000 per 30 mins or 2000 per hour.

You'd need 8000 overgrowth soil per hour to match this, which is 40,000 seeds per hour (plus extra for the normal soil). My Gleba base produced 1,500 seeds last hour, and looking back at maximum production for this entire playthrough it was only about 2,000 per hour. I don't have a big base but it does produce everything I need and produces ~400 science per minute, but I'd need to scale up 20 times larger just to meet the seed needs.

There's also the 40,000 stone for the landfill, 80,000 nutrients and 400,000 spoilage. Per hour. And you need 4,000 biter eggs instead of the 1,000 I need.

And this is just to match my first attempt, with only 3 biter nests producing eggs and a ship I didn't specifically design for this task (am planning to attempt a trip to the shattered planet), and before I've refined anything.

You need nutrients, so you either have to ship biter eggs to Gleba, or make nutrients on Nauvis, and ship the seeds where you need them, and deal with the recycling on the platform. None of this can be dismissed with "all you have to do". It's way, way more work to match my first attempt to get something that even functions.

You’re missing the point again. Yes, it’s “work”, and it requires a big factory, and Nauvis<>Gleba shipping and lots of resources. I’m not denying that. But that’s just lots and lots of volume, just scaling up. No thinking or designing. It’s not “easy”, but it is “simple”. There’s a difference. They’re two different kinds of difficulty. And in my eyes, they don’t have the same value.
Like, imagine this: Let’s say there was a recipe to make yellow science out of lots of iron ore. If you do the math, you will realize that it’s very inefficient in terms of ore per pack. You need to mine a lot more ore, so naturally that means this method is “harder” and “costlier”. But would people still use it over the regular recipe? They absolutely would. To most players, thinking is a lot more valuable than in-game busywork. Most would rather do a lot of something simple, than a little bit of something complicated. The word “most” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, but from what I’ve seen, it’s generally true. Which is why I believe they should not be given the option in the first place.

[CyberCider]

Why can't you just store promethium in the space platform hub... Isn't that a worse exploit than just storing it on the belts?

Belts can fit way more promethium in a small space, which is why people use them. But the solution I proposed (short spoil timer on promethium) would counteract all types of storage, so it wouldn’t matter in the end.

[quineotio]

It’s not “easy”, but it is “simple”.

How is it easier or simpler? I explained my situation - it would take weeks to build the equivalent of what I currently have, and it would necessarily be more complicated because both ways involve biter eggs - it's just that making soil requires four times more and interplanetary logistics and a massive factory on Gleba.

You've clearly not tried to do this. Go and actually do what you propose and then come back and tell me how simple you think it is, and tell me how long it took.

[CyberCider]

It’s not “easy”, but it is “simple”.

How is it easier or simpler? I explained my situation - it would take weeks to build the equivalent of what I currently have, and it would necessarily be more complicated because both ways involve biter eggs - it's just that making soil requires four times more and interplanetary logistics and a massive factory on Gleba.

You've clearly not tried to do this. Go and actually do what you propose and then come back and tell me how simple you think it is, and tell me how long it took.

Like I said: It’s not easier, but it is simpler. Yes it would take a while, but it would be just work. Just building and expanding the factory with designs you’ve already made. Just “produce X item and get it from point A to point B”. That’s a completely different kind of effort from designing an optimal ship. And like I said, most people would rather do X hours of enemy clearing and copy-pasting than Y hours of ship optimizing, even if Y is smaller.
By the way, while this may also involve biter eggs, you’re only transporting them from Nauvis to Gleba. That’s significantly easier than getting them from Nauvis to beyond solar system edge.

[quineotio]

it would be just work... Just building... Just “produce X item and get it from point A to point B”.

Just go do it. Curious to see what you come up with. I'll check back here in a couple of weeks.