Promethium science is too easy to cheese

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CyberCider
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Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by CyberCider »

Personally, I think promethium science is a very well-designed final challenge. It’s a tricky and complex puzzle, but also a test of your megabase’s production capabilities. You have to build a ship that’s both fast enough to deliver fresh biter eggs to promethium space, but is also well-armed enough to survive the trip. Optimizing this to the limit will require a lot of infinite research, legendary quality buildings, but most of all: Clever and efficient ship design. Doesn’t that sound cool, and interesting, and climactic? I think it does!

Which is why I’m immensely disappointed by the fact that you don’t actually have to do any of this. Aren’t you?

The existence of not one, but two cheese methods for the game’s ultimate challenge, is something I personally consider a tragedy.
The first culprit, belt buffering, allows players to simply collect promethium and bring it back to Nauvis where the other ingredients will be waiting. And the second option, overgrowth soil recycling, lets them store biter eggs in an unspoilable form.

You may notice that these two have something in common: They both remove spoilable cargo from the equation. Speed no longer matters. Instead of needing a ship with both speed and firepower, now you only need firepower. I’m not saying this is necessarily easy to do, but I am saying it’s simple. All it takes is an enormous behemoth ship. It doesn’t matter if it’s as slow as a rock, there’s no pressure at all. Do you see how the elegant challenge was reduced to a simple resource grind? I don’t know about you guys, but I kind of hate it.

“But OP, if you don’t like it, then just don’t do it.”

Yes, I’m aware that anyone can play the game any way they want. Challenges, settings, mods… They all exist to let people customize their experience to their liking. But this is a board about balancing. And that means balancing the default, intended experience, with the goal of making it better for the average player. And I believe that the reduced difficulty of promethium science is making the game worse.

How can we make it better? Well, it’s quite simple:
1) Promethium needs to be impossible to store. The spoilage mechanic already exists for this purpose, so we can just apply it here. Promethium is an unstable radioactive element, after all. When the ship breaks it into small chunks, those chunks should begin to quickly decay into useless rock. The length of the timer doesn’t matter, as long as it’s significantly shorter than the biter egg timer. The promethium only needs to go from the collector to the core of the ship. That can only take minutes at most, nobody will ever realistically have to worry about losing their promethium to spoiling.
2) It should be impossible to store biter eggs in an unspoilable form. Make overgrowth soil recycle into itself, so biter eggs can’t be extracted back out of it. Landfill actually recycles into itself, so it wouldn’t be unprecedented. There is, however, one very odd alternate possibility here, which requires some more thought: Productivity 3 modules can also be recycled for biter eggs. Compared to overgrowth soil, they are extremely expensive and offer terrible storage density, so I doubt anyone would be crazy enough to try to use them as a storage method, but you never know… In case this method shows signs of being viable, then the issue can be solved by manually removing biter eggs from the module’s recycling recipe. It’s not elegant, and I hope it doesn’t become necessary, but it would accomplish its mission…

Some of you may notice that this is actually a compiled version of two posts I’ve previously made in the suggestions board. Why did I do this? Well… At the time of making those posts, I was actually not aware of the balancing board’s existence :lol:
But as soon as I noticed it, I realized that the topic discussed in those posts would be much more appropriate for this board, rather than the suggestions one. So I moved them here, and took the opportunity to clean them up and update them with some more thorough argumentation. I do sincerely hope that this isn’t an annoyance to anyone, or worse, breaks some rule that I failed to notice.
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Zymoran
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Zymoran »

Short version:
You can cheese Promethium science by
1) Recycling overgrowth soil
2) Promethium belt storage
with 1) being far more effective/convenient

It would be good if the developers can either patch both 1) and 2), or confirm this to be a design decision.
CyberCider
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by CyberCider »

Zymoran wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:19 am Short version:
You can cheese Promethium science by
1) Recycling overgrowth soil
2) Promethium belt storage
with 1) being far more effective/convenient

It would be good if the developers can either patch both 1) and 2), or confirm this to be a design decision.
You know, rereading my post after waking up the next morning, I also noticed that a tl;dr would have been nice. Thanks for doing this :?
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by EustaceCS »

Define "cheese".

Promethium science pack needs:
- Quantum processor which is built from exclusive components from 4 planets (but, somehow, not Uranium, although without Uranium crafting Aquilo part is a VERY tricky task...)
It's a pure volumetric logistics challenge which eventually can be bruteforced with enough effort on the ground.
Somehow, the most trivialize'able part does not raise your eyebrows, no?

- Biter egg which is built from some endgame things in some VERY specific places.
It's a speed logistics challenge which currently CAN be trivialized - but since simplification introduces Fulgora tech into this specific mix, and since space on space platforms is quite finite, MAYBE it's OK'ish.
As far as we know, we don't know it yet for sure, no?

- specific asteroid chunks.
Combat logistics challenge where your thoroughput depends heavily on how good you're at shooting rocks and returning.
Can be trivialized with platform design good enough.
But.
Not improved.
Upgrading a platform to make it reach further and bring back more rocks per hour is a non-trivial task.
Building mining endgame fleet is a very costy option - but this and only this maks this challenge part easy AND predictable.
But (x2).
Maybe if player reached prosperity so high so he CAN afford building a mining fleet for Shattered Planet, maybe player deserves to reap all benefits from this, no?
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by CyberCider »

EustaceCS wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 10:51 am It's a speed logistics challenge which currently CAN be trivialized - but since simplification introduces Fulgora tech into this specific mix, and since space on space platforms is quite finite, MAYBE it's OK'ish.
As far as we know, we don't know it yet for sure, no?
I already checked with a calculator: One recycler will unpack enough biter eggs to make 625 science packs per minute. At basic quality. It’s safe to say that this doesn’t take up any signficiant space. And besides, this isn’t all theoretical. People are actually using this method, and to great effect.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by EustaceCS »

mmmmmm, I'd take a liberty to not take this statement for granted.
Do note that since I'm still 200ish hours away from trying it on practice, my opinion is probably void and null.
But on paper introduction of recyclers is ought to cause more trouble - it'll just remove (most of) Spoilage mechanics from equation.
In either case we eliminate a surprise stampede from hundreds of newborn big bugs.
At which price?

Recyclers barf the output on the ground semi-uncontrollably so at least one egg is always spoiling somewhere OR some giga brain grade wiring is implemented to prevent it completely. In latter case smart approach should be rewarded, I guess.
If someone managed to invent a scheme where 0 eggs are undergoing spoilage on the way to being crafted into science packs - which is technically doable without recyclers for now with even smarter wiring - then the winnings are well-justified.

And we two-digit-IQ pleb have to deal with 2x4 tiles recycler + either 2 tiles to control output or necessity to deal with eggs being spilled uncontrollably + at least 1 tile to throw other recycling byproducts away.
Not any random two-digit-IQ pleb can stick this contraption on your regular research or shipping platform without making it irrepairably flawed.
Not mentioning slamming it on promethium mining platform without gimping it for life.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Zymoran »

EustaceCS wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 3:11 pm Recyclers barf the output on the ground semi-uncontrollably so at least one egg is always spoiling somewhere OR some giga brain grade wiring is implemented to prevent it completely. In latter case smart approach should be rewarded, I guess
I don't understand how your points are related to the exploit.
a) sure, the last 1-9 biter eggs may spoil. Why is egg-spoil==0 a condition for it not to be cheese/exploit?
b) you can use just 1 recycler for the overgrowth soil

I've read the post 3 times and still don't understand. Explain to one-digit IQ pleb incapable of reading more than 4 lines of text
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by EustaceCS »

That's the problem.
I don't think that exploit is an exploit. Which I've probably failed to describe coherently.
And that's where my and your perceptions of the situation diverge. For reasons which I've failed to describe. Maybe because I'm using "exploit" word in a definition I as discarded IT veteran am too accustomed to use. You know, I'm genetically incompatile with using words "bug", "exploit", "glitch", "lag", etc to situations which by these words' definition are not fitting for these words.
Since I genuinely have 0 idea how to break this cognitive barrier between us, the best thing we can do is tip our fedoras.
We both know that we will be heared anyway. Others might want to add their voices.
*tips*
*retreats*
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Visione »

Both methods don't really seem like an exploit to me but more like a solution to solving the problem. Without either these methods people would just convert to storing promethian chunks in (legendary) cargo bays. Which I would also not consider an exploit, which fundamentally is the same as storing items on a belt. Just with a lower density.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Zymoran »

Visione wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:04 pm Without either these methods people would just convert to storing promethian chunks in (legendary) cargo bays.
Without either of those methods, people would need to bring spoilable eggs and craft science in space in a fast and efficient manner. That would seem like the intended way because it involves a challenge about efficiency rather than trivial brute force.

Whether the developers intended promethium science to be
a) a challenge about speed and efficiency
b) brute force with belt-weaving storage or overgrowth soil
is only to be determined by developers/moderators who are yet to make a statement on this.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by CyberCider »

Visione wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:04 pm Both methods don't really seem like an exploit to me but more like a solution to solving the problem. Without either these methods people would just convert to storing promethian chunks in (legendary) cargo bays. Which I would also not consider an exploit, which fundamentally is the same as storing items on a belt. Just with a lower density.
Well, with my proposal, they couldn't do that either. It wouldn't matter where you put the promethium, it would still spoil. Spoilage is the anti-storage mechanic, there's no way to counteract it.

Also, an exploit is a solution to a problem. Just one that's easier than it should be. And also less intuitive, and usually uglier.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Visione »

Zymoran wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:27 pm
Visione wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:04 pm Without either these methods people would just convert to storing promethian chunks in (legendary) cargo bays.
Without either of those methods, people would need to bring spoilable eggs and craft science in space in a fast and efficient manner. That would seem like the intended way because it involves a challenge about efficiency rather than trivial brute force.

Whether the developers intended promethium science to be
a) a challenge about speed and efficiency
b) brute force with belt-weaving storage or overgrowth soil
is only to be determined by developers/moderators who are yet to make a statement on this.
CyberCider wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 6:31 pm
Visione wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:04 pm Both methods don't really seem like an exploit to me but more like a solution to solving the problem. Without either these methods people would just convert to storing promethian chunks in (legendary) cargo bays. Which I would also not consider an exploit, which fundamentally is the same as storing items on a belt. Just with a lower density.
Well, with my proposal, they couldn't do that either. It wouldn't matter where you put the promethium, it would still spoil. Spoilage is the anti-storage mechanic, there's no way to counteract it.

Also, an exploit is a solution to a problem. Just one that's easier than it should be. And also less intuitive, and usually uglier.
You both are so sure that the way you think this should work is how the developers intended it be and anything else is an exploit.
I'm not really sure your assumption is correct, that the challenge was about speed and efficiency, and you should craft the science pack on ship overcoming the spoilage mechanic of bitter eggs.
think it's quite normal to assume the developers have considered people would just store promethium chunks and craft at home, or use other methods. And if they have considered it, and thought it was wrong, they would have designed something else.

As long as a dev does not share what was there "intended" way to play, this whole conversation is a bit pointless, so I'm gonna dip out.
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[Space Age][The Shattered Planet][Space Platforms] Another subject from a different topic. Right???

Post by BraveCaperCat »

Spoiling (of biter eggs) + Recycler = No Challenge.
Please fix.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Stargateur »

it's obvious to me there is zero pressure from dev to craft the potion on the travel (this would be true only if promethium chunk spoil). It's true the belt allow way more storage than the cargo bay and that for me a small problem of design, and that why as temporary solution I buffed a lot the cargo bay. But as I already said in another thread the real problem is the game is not balanced around item that doesn't stack, the solution is to balanced asteroid chunk to be stack-able to 50 (at the very least, 100 would be even better) like most other item in the game.

But ultimately, promethium science doesn't really need to be "balanced" the game is over at this point, the rest is only game+, so...
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by quineotio »

I just started getting my first prometheum and I did it the intended way - a fast ship carrying biter eggs and making the science on board. It's an interesting challenge, and I don't care at all that other people "cheese" it. I think this expansion already has too many things forcing you to do things in a particular way. How does the existence of "cheese" make the game worse for you? Does it bother you that other people have fun differently? Are your achievements less valuable because other people do things an easier way?

Why do you care?
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by CyberCider »

quineotio wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:09 pm I just started getting my first prometheum and I did it the intended way - a fast ship carrying biter eggs and making the science on board. It's an interesting challenge, and I don't care at all that other people "cheese" it. I think this expansion already has too many things forcing you to do things in a particular way. How does the existence of "cheese" make the game worse for you? Does it bother you that other people have fun differently? Are your achievements less valuable because other people do things an easier way?

Why do you care?
The final challenge being simplified doesn’t make the game worse for me, it just makes it worse period. Game design and balancing wise, I mean. And I don’t like that, because I like this game and want the best for it.
We shouldn’t leave bad things in the game just because people find them fun/convenient. Here is an example: If there was a dev chest at spawn with infinite science packs in it, would you leave it in or patch it out? I’m sure a lot of people would have a lot of fun now that all the great technologies are in their reach so quickly, and it would probably upset them if the chest was removed, so what should you do? Well, the answer answer is: Patch it out, because it makes the game worse. People who really want it can lower the tech cost multiplier, or use a mod to add the chest back in.
Just like I said, there are many play the game your own way. But the default experience should be balanced for the average player. Not too hard, but not too easy either. Just because people don’t complain as much about “too easy”, doesn’t make it any better than “too hard”. And right now, I think the difficulty/complexity of promethium science is not at the right level whatsoever.
Besides, it’s completely obvious that none of those methods are intended features. Overgrowth soil is not a tech prerequisite for promethium science, and the “mechanic” of using belts for dense storage is never taught to the player at any point. Not by being required for some earlier challenge, and not by “tips and tricks” either. Meanwhile, making a fast ship to deliver spoilable items was required multiple times by that point, and this is only a step up in difficulty. If these things were allowed to remain in the game and accepted as indended ways to approach the challenge, then the game should adapt to them. Because in their current state, they are completely unintuitive and very much exploit-y in nature, which is terrible for new players.
Either way, these things are a problem and something has to be done about them.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Khagan »

CyberCider wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 6:43 pm Besides, it’s completely obvious that none of those methods are intended features. Overgrowth soil is not a tech prerequisite for promethium science, and the “mechanic” of using belts for dense storage is never taught to the player at any point. Not by being required for some earlier challenge, and not by “tips and tricks” either.
Promethium science is the capstone technology; the player would typically have all other non-infinite techs before it, even if they are not actually prerequisites. Using belts for storage is a trick that you learn when building your very first space platform.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Zymoran »

quineotio wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:09 pmHow does the existence of "cheese" make the game worse for you? Does it bother you that other people have fun differently? Are your achievements less valuable because other people do things an easier way?

Why do you care?
Every time I bring back 100k promethium science with my cheeseship, it leaves me the same taste in my mouth as when I do tax evasion. It doesn't have to be like this.

So why don't I just stop doing it then? Due to the principle of least action.

This is not about me complaining about what other players do - for all that I care, you can use the editor and spawn an infinity chest of promethium science. I don't think anyone has made that point in this thread.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by quineotio »

Zymoran wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 12:19 am
quineotio wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:09 pmHow does the existence of "cheese" make the game worse for you? Does it bother you that other people have fun differently? Are your achievements less valuable because other people do things an easier way?

Why do you care?
Every time I bring back 100k promethium science with my cheeseship, it leaves me the same taste in my mouth as when I do tax evasion. It doesn't have to be like this.

So why don't I just stop doing it then? Due to the principle of least action.

This is not about me complaining about what other players do - for all that I care, you can use the editor and spawn an infinity chest of promethium science. I don't think anyone has made that point in this thread.
How long does it take for a round trip?

I take 1k biter eggs with me and the round trip takes about 30 mins, so that's about 25k prometheum chunks per trip or 50k an hour. But this is only with 3 captive biter spawners, so the eggs are about a third spoiled - and there are some other inefficiencies. I'm confident that I could take 1.5k eggs, or about 75k per hour, just by slightly refining my current setup. I'm not sure yet, but I might even be able to go to 2k eggs if I have a bunch of spawners so that I have fresher eggs, maybe even more - haven't tested yet.

This is the first time I've tried this, and my ship isn't perfect. I know how to make it better, so I'm fairly sure I could push this number higher - I'm not sure that 150k prometheum chunks used per hour is out of reach if I really optimize.

I am really curious if your way is faster.
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Re: Promethium science is too easy to cheese

Post by Zymoran »

quineotio wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 1:22 am How long does it take for a round trip?
...
I am really curious if your way is faster.
Oh, it's slow. A trip takes more than an hour, but this is specifically due to weaponry and how the asteroid collectors are located on my cheeseship (see image).
I'm not going to optimize this design before I know whether it will be patched.
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