Increase Gleba seed production chance

[BlueTemplar]

Still, 2 mk1 normal quality modules is going to be +8% productivity, which I assume is going to feel pretty miserable compared to the +50% of Biochambers ?

[mrvn]

Still, 2 mk1 normal quality modules is going to be +8% productivity, which I assume is going to feel pretty miserable compared to the +50% of Biochambers ?

Totally. But gaining 8% seeds is a big step up from 0% gain and loosing it all due to a streak of bad luck.

[WeirdConstructor]

Honestly, giving the player a little nudge for this pitfall using tips & tricks does no harm. Even at 3% you eventually might run out.

I would've really appreciated it, as I already was busy wrapping my head around: enemies, planting, landfilling, recognizing where to build, what to make in what order, wondering about random attacks from spoiled eggs, what yelly and mash are for, how to make lots of nutrients and how to deal with spoilage. All under a rather weird kind of time pressure due to spoilage and not knowing how soon attacks going to start due to pollution.

[BlueTemplar]

Even at 3% you eventually might run out.

It's exactly the same ratio as using a Biochamber on 2% : technically possible, but extremely unlikely.

[mrvn]

Even at 3% you eventually might run out.

It's exactly the same ratio as using a Biochamber on 2% : technically possible, but extremely unlikely.

Unless it's in the first few loops talk about a once in a lifetime chance.

When tossing a coin and adding up the heads and tails the expectation is that after N tosses you have at some time had sqrt(N) more heads than tails. Meaning if you start with 1000 seeds than after a million cycles the farm is expected to have died due to a lack of seeds. The seed production is not really tossing a 50:50 coin but the expectations are basically the same. With a 2% chance and 1000 seeds your farm will generally die within a million loops of the recipe (with no rotten fruit).

At 3% your 1000 seeds will grow every time you flip tails. This takes it from a certainty to a (im)probability. Going back to the coin example you don't have to hit 1000 more heads than tails but (1000 + n / 100) more heads than tails in n tries. After 1000 tosses you only have like a 30% chance to be below 1000 seeds, after 2000 tosses only a 13% chance to be below 1000, after 3000 tosses 2%, after 4000 tosses 0.1%. (numbers not exact but show the order of magnitude of failure probability). And that is just the probability to have less seeds than you started with. not run out. So we are talking about millions of people playing millions of games and one of them will fail, maybe, on a Friday the 13th. And his PC will catch fire and the PSU will explode but he also wins the lottery and slips on a banana peel.

[SirSmuggler]

I landed on Gleba for the first time this weekend. I've allready done Fulgora and Vulcanus, so I was well prepared. I've avaoided reading any Gleba-related threads (including this one) until now so I could get a spoiler free experiance... We all know That didn't work

Any way, I very soon realized the seed problem and started to try and find ways to get more seeds. I don't remember my line of thought/action exactly, but for what ever reason I did start out fruit bashing in the assembly machine, not the biochamber. I didn't even realice you could do it in the biochamber until much later.
I did think about produuctivity modules, but I was not sure they would effect the chanse of seeds or just give more fruitmash.
I did some testing and did not reach conclusive evidence. Tryed 4 seeds at a time (so 200 fruites processed each step) and got these results with 4 prod modules 2 each with 2 green dots quality (uncommon?).

Seeds back after planting 4 seeds (repeated 4 times):
Red fruit: 6, 7, 9, 2
Brain fruit: 4, 4, 4, 4

The average does point to the prod modules having some effect, but much larger sample size would be needed to be sure.

That's as far as I got yesterday and that's what drove me to this thread. It seems every one just assumes the seed chanse it effected by prod modules, and if that's the case then I think the 2% base chanse is fine. But perhaps some kind of tips/pointer in game would be a good idea.

[BlueTemplar]

It's not so much as the chance is directly affected by productivity, it's that when the productivity bar completes you get an extra result, with its own extra chance for seeds.

(And on machines with exactly 50% productivity you get a result at the same time as a recipe completes, for even numbered recipes.
Also, if using quality, both of the batches will then be of the same quality.)

[Drundia]

I'm fine with the 50% production bonus of Biochambers being a footnote. That's a nice thing to discover. But a prominent tip to use production modules in an assembler is an essential tip. The player probably doesn't have a Biochamber when he build his first tree farm so pointing to the Biochamber is of no help.

May I ask you what are you doing on Gleba without a Biochamber? I mean you can't really do anything on other planets without their special buildings.

[mrvn]

I'm fine with the 50% production bonus of Biochambers being a footnote. That's a nice thing to discover. But a prominent tip to use production modules in an assembler is an essential tip. The player probably doesn't have a Biochamber when he build his first tree farm so pointing to the Biochamber is of no help.

May I ask you what are you doing on Gleba without a Biochamber? I mean you can't really do anything on other planets without their special buildings.

You only get the tech for a biochamber after you got the tree harvester and recipe for copper and iron (although you get that from space). It's nice to build a red ammo factory before going egg hunting for the biochamber.

There is no reason to expect people wait for the biochamber before trying to build tree farms.

[Drundia]

You only get the tech for a biochamber after you got the tree harvester and recipe for copper and iron (although you get that from space). It's nice to build a red ammo factory before going egg hunting for the biochamber.

There is no reason to expect people wait for the biochamber before trying to build tree farms.

But what are you doing with tree farms before you have a Biochamber? You break even on seeds, you barely can use fruit in any meaningful way. Why do you build a tree farm?

[SirSmuggler]

You only get the tech for a biochamber after you got the tree harvester and recipe for copper and iron (although you get that from space). It's nice to build a red ammo factory before going egg hunting for the biochamber.

There is no reason to expect people wait for the biochamber before trying to build tree farms.

But what are you doing with tree farms before you have a Biochamber? You break even on seeds, you barely can use fruit in any meaningful way. Why do you build a tree farm?

Game says, "look new stuff you can build". Ofcource (some) people will try and build it and experiment and see what it does. Not every one reads the "manual" and analyze all the numbers befor trying something new the game offers.

[BlueTemplar]

Eh, it could go either way
(and new to Factorio players seem to lean towards Biochambers ?),
because
(forgetting tips and tricks for a moment)
before even mining any tree you also get a nutrient recipe, with seemingly nowhere to use it,
and crafting 100 spoilage into 10 nutrients unlocks biochamber if you mined both kinds of trees
(does this research progress if you haven't mined both of them yet ??)

[mrvn]

Eh, it could go either way
(and new to Factorio players seem to lean towards Biochambers ?),
because
(forgetting tips and tricks for a moment)
before even mining any tree you also get a nutrient recipe, with seemingly nowhere to use it,
and crafting 100 spoilage into 10 nutrients unlocks biochamber if you mined both kinds of trees
(does this research progress if you haven't mined both of them yet ??)

Iirc yes it does. The tech is then 100% finished but not unlocked till you get the trees.

It's also easy to run out of eggs and therefore biochambers early on, before you perfected the endless egg loop and it's nutrient supply. Players might not realized where to best put the biochambers they do have, prefering the speed for things that needs the speed instead of using the productivity where it is most needed.

[Drundia]

You only get the tech for a biochamber after you got the tree harvester and recipe for copper and iron (although you get that from space). It's nice to build a red ammo factory before going egg hunting for the biochamber.

There is no reason to expect people wait for the biochamber before trying to build tree farms.

But what are you doing with tree farms before you have a Biochamber? You break even on seeds, you barely can use fruit in any meaningful way. Why do you build a tree farm?

Game says, "look new stuff you can build". Ofcource (some) people will try and build it and experiment and see what it does. Not every one reads the "manual" and analyze all the numbers befor trying something new the game offers.

Well, Gleba is very punishing about it. You don't know what to do and somehow you have to do it fast. And then you try to do it without any understanding of what you are about to get. Well, yes, Gleba is very punishing about it. You will likely have some stuff expire as well, so seeds just follow the rule even though they aren't expiring.

[BlueTemplar]

I would only call it 'very punishing' if you can't handle small stompers.

[Drundia]

I would only call it 'very punishing' if you can't handle small stompers.

Let me remind you that we are talking about people who can't make sustainable seed production.

[BlueTemplar]

Good point. Might not be exactly the same skills though ? (And depends on how prepared one would be before landing...)

[mrvn]

Good point. Might not be exactly the same skills though ? (And depends on how prepared one would be before landing...)

If you already know what to prepare for then you don't need the tips & tricks mentioning biochambers or prod modules. Wrong target group.

[BlueTemplar]

A general «prepare for enemies» ought to work decently enough to take out lone small stompers ? (V

ulcanus with Demolishers is another matter, but it's much easier in other ways.

)
It not like the player (playing on default settings) will have zero experience of killing biter nests at this point (and no armour).

[mrvn]

A general «prepare for enemies» ought to work decently enough to take out lone small stompers ? (V

ulcanus with Demolishers is another matter, but it's much easier in other ways.

)
It not like the player (playing on default settings) will have zero experience of killing biter nests at this point (and no armour).

Most people will probably be surprised how much the swamp slows them down and get stomped the first time.