Automatic mining bases expansion (or eliminating the need)

[vitalyb]

Of all the aspects in Factorio, the one I dislike the most is mining-expansion. Resources keep running out and I have to rush out and perform the same thing, over and over again:

1) Explore the area to find resources
2) Fight and clear any hives on the way (when impossible to avoid)
3) Create a rail all the way to the new base
4) Pass power via power poles
5) Create train station
6) Create base layout (miners, conveyors, etc)

It is fun to do the first 2 times, but doing it everytime your resources run out, is just repetitive and not fun.

I did the following to make it a bit more automatic :

1) Use radars to find new location (which is what they are designed for)
2) Clear any hives manually
3) Use this mod for automatic rail laying. It is a LOT nicer than doing manually, but not really perfect - The controls are a bit tricky and I constantly endup making a mess. It is an ok solution, however.
4) I use the same mod as above to help me with the rails - I drive on the train and lay the poles as I go. Still manual, but better.
5) To create a rail station automatically I use blueprints. However, I need a construction bot in the area and a bot station, including all the resources. So I have a requester box that requests all the needed resources for an expansion base. I go there, pick all the resources, build the station, put the put and use the blueprint. Once the bots are done, I destroy the tower, take the bots, and return everything to storage for next time.
6) Since every mining base/oil base reqiures its own resources, I can't make a blueprint for that, so I do that manually.

So I got to do a bunch of stuff every X hours, I can make richer resources, but then I either don't have to expand at all or I still have to do the same thing but less often.

I have a few ideas to improve that:

1. Easiest to implement (can be a mod): Make resource never-ending (like oil), but SLOWER. I'll still have to make new mining bases, but I'll have the pleasure to know that these bases aren't temporary - I can truly put an effort to them. I don't want to constantly create new mining bases, I want to improve existing ones - Makes stronger defenses, increase throughput and then deal with that throughput. Something in the spirit of Transport Tycoon. I've tried using this mod for that and it is quite a good start. However, I feel that it more can be done in that area (e.g reduce speed)

2. Allow a more strategic use of constructor bots - At a certain technology level, allow you to place blueprint and send constructor bots to that location, from FAR away. It will take time and the path should be free of the aliens.

3. Rails and poles should be automated in a similar manner as above, however, in some kind of interface that allows you to say: Start rail here, end rail there. Factorio will build the path the best it can (if possible).

What do you guys think? How do you automate base expansion differently?

[Garm]

I think this might've been better in suggestions


1 is definitive no factorio will become waiting game.

2 I dont see how it will benefit the game? It would still need power supply and if you are using solars you might as well just travel to the location drop some solars + roboport and deploy the blueprint - done.

3 Poles are being discussed in suggestions already, rails? I worry if the pathing algorithm will even make anything decent...and if it will - how hard would be to code for it (would need tree and rock removal too otherwise you would just make serpentine roller-coasters instead of straight lines)


Factorio does have a lot of unanswered problems when it comes to expansion and long time gameplay, but how to tackle this problem without making this game much less challenging is going to be difficult.

[Nova]

1 is definitive no factorio will become waiting game.

Well, I always config the resources to "very high" because I don't like the "Hey, you need nore resources, it doesn't matter if you have other thing to do now!"
I would like unlimited fields. Not as standard, but what about small other field which are unlimited, but not really big / productive? The devs already talked about underground mining, maybe this could implement this.

[ssilk]

For unlimited fields you can use the test mode mod.

[tecxx]

interesting opinion, because of all the aspects of factorio, expanding and connecting to new minig sites is the one we like most.
for me and my wife this is basically the point of playing the game: "tank up" and rush to a new remote location together.
i am wondering, what would be the content of the game if the first 3-4 resource fields would never run out? everything is automated, you dont need to expand, so you basically just wait until your factory produces all the stuff, game over?

i agree with you that the rail construction is a bit tedious. a large scale rail placement mode without running around as a character, e.g. something similar to the way it is done in transport tycoon, would help a lot. and to not break immersion, this could be done with a new facility or a new "construction train", which, once entered, you leave your character and can roam the map freely, placing rails and solid ground and removing obstacles and water in "ghost" mode, which is then executed by the "construction train" or some construction robots or something.

[OBAMA MCLAMA]

I completely agree with tecxx, Exploring and going out to get the resources, is probably the funnest part.

The oil on a standard generation settings is enough to get you to rocket defense, Seriously. Its better to use RSO mod, or set frequency to low. Meaning my fight is for resources, It turns the game into more of a survival game.

If you want to make it easier, make a engineering train. a 3/4 cargo train that contains items for every possible outpost/base creating situation, like tracks/robots/pipes/pumpjacks/mining drills/belts/etc.
It works out because it has all the materials you require, so no need to go back to the base. Use requester chests to fill it up when its in your yard.

[just_dont]

We already have endless resources mod (which makes them non-depletable with quantities <1, so slow mining), and RSO (resource spawner overhaul), which makes exploring rather more interesting. You can use them together to create a rather different experience than your vanilla factorio game session).

[ssilk]

interesting opinion, because of all the aspects of factorio, expanding and connecting to new minig sites is the one we like most.
for me and my wife this is basically the point of playing the game: "tank up" and rush to a new remote location together.
i am wondering, what would be the content of the game if the first 3-4 resource fields would never run out? everything is automated, you dont need to expand, so you basically just wait until your factory produces all the stuff, game over?

The problem is: if you come currently to some limit, the resources run faster out, then you can gain new.
There are some basic game mechanisms, which would enable, to make that much faster. This one for example. Some other would be to have something like a personal teleporter...
Until then I recommend to "cheat" a bit, so that you don't loose the fun, when you expand.

i agree with you that the rail construction is a bit tedious. a large scale rail placement mode without running around as a character, e.g. something similar to the way it is done in transport tycoon, would help a lot. and to not break immersion, this could be done with a new facility or a new "construction train", which, once entered, you leave your character and can roam the map freely, placing rails and solid ground and removing obstacles and water in "ghost" mode, which is then executed by the "construction train" or some construction robots or something.

Well, I think you are thinking in smaller dimensions. I would like to talk here about thousands of tiles. There is no fun in placing such long tracks "by hand", or building dozens of signals of making your 20th train crossing.

But maybe I'm wrong with those dimensions.

[Choumiko]

Well, I think you are thinking in smaller dimensions. I would like to talk here about thousands of tiles. There is no fun in placing such long tracks "by hand", or building dozens of signals of making your 20th train crossing.

But maybe I'm wrong with those dimensions.

Nope, you're right On a small scale building by hand is fun (the first few times), ok after a while and boring a little later for long (500+) straight tracks it's just boring/annoying. I'm currently programming the rail-layer from scratch, with full automation in mind (e.g. type in target coords, hit go and enjoy) It's gonna take a while though.

[ssilk]

What still is fascinating me is, when I drive with the rail-layer. One direction, some minutes. I don't see my base any more on the minimap (faded out in the first minute) and need to zoom out on the big.

There is this feeling again of really beeing alone! If something goes wrong, your outpost is gone. The problem just is, that it takes there ages to build that outpost, even if you have some wagons full of the needed stuff with you.

The supply over this distance is the problem.

[Adil]

The problem just is, that it takes there ages to build that outpost, even if you have some wagons full of the needed stuff with you.

I wonder what do you mean by outpost then.
Character inventory is large enough to contain factory large enough to build a rocket defense.
Also, isn't the remoteness of such outpost and resulting logistic stress something you should face for going so far?

As for original theme, I've been playing quite a long game recently and after building up tenth mining outpost I've come to appreciate some of the op arguments.
The need to more or less manually adapt drill layout to a shape of specific ore field is indeed a bit of a hassle. Thought this can be solved by using drills with larger coverage area. There was a couple of mods that adds those.
As for power connections, if the outpost is really far guess it's time to build it it's own powersource. With the use of effectivity modules the excavation site can be supplied with rather modest amount of solars.
As for manual combat I could recommend Mocombat mod. It provides both the robots to fight for you as well as some more appropriate means of manual biter eradication later on.

[n9103]

As for original theme, I've been playing quite a long game recently and after building up tenth mining outpost I've come to appreciate some of the op arguments.
The need to more or less manually adapt drill layout to a shape of specific ore field is indeed a bit of a hassle.

Would also be solvable by having a 'force-place' modifier for mines, and also for blueprints. (Hopefully the latter is on it's way soon!)

[ssilk]

The problem just is, that it takes there ages to build that outpost, even if you have some wagons full of the needed stuff with you.

I wonder what do you mean by outpost then.
Character inventory is large enough to contain factory large enough to build a rocket defense.
Also, isn't the remoteness of such outpost and resulting logistic stress something you should face for going so far?

Oh, yes, this has been discussed along over the last months. The "outpost" is some far away mining site. Connected via rail, cause it is too far away (>500 tiles).
You need to think, that the current rocket defence is not the "end". You need much more resources, than now.

[Sisaroth]

Seems like a non issue to me. Just set all resources to very high richness. They last for like 20 hours then.

[Koub]

Well there is often the answer : "you want it, mod it" in the forum (but it's the case for every moddable game I have played).
For me, a game should feel complete without the use of mods. That's the reason I dont agree with the systematic answer "make a mod" to whatever you feel missing in a game.
In Factorio, most part of the game is about automation. At least that's what I have felt of the "soul" of the game. Thus, whatever pushes towards giving the ability to the player to automate a process should be considered twice before discarding it.

I have played Factorio quite a few hundreds of hours, and until now, I have never expanded far away and built rail connected outposts because I feel overwhelmed by the simple idea of setting up all this complex rail / train / loading/unloading stations, ... And I find it sad, because I also feel I haven't had a complete experience of the game, I know I miss something really important.

I feel that knowing there is an ingame way to automate partially this kind of things would incline me to "dare" throw myself into building one, and see how things can be done.
And no, blueprinting is not enough automation for me, because there is no ingame way to export a blueprint for usage in future gameplays, and I don't want to spend countless hours reinventing the same layouts for blueprinting them, every new game I play. I know the game is under development, so I don't complain about the lack of all the features I'd like to see added, I'm not whining, just explaining why I think some kind of ingame mechanism to automate the setup of distant outposts would feel great to me (but only if a way is found to make things "feel right", no need to ad an absurdly unnatural or overcomplicated thing).

[ssilk]

@Sisaroth: I think this is one of the coolest things in Factorio: This is a game (the first?), where it is possible to increase the "scale" by factor 10-100 and still keep the lowest level (scale 1) in a way, where the things are NOT simulated. The things feel for me somehow "real", when I go for outposts and increase the scale. The current game is just something, which enables that.

@Koub: Mods are the best way to try new things out. There is no way around it, some things need to be prototyped first.

And there is something between your lines, which let me think, this is wrong: Most active players in this forum (ok, I'm not sure about that, but I think this can be assumed for very much) look around how Factorio will make for them the most fun. And some of them try to bring the development into "their" direction. This is not easy, cause you need to tinker into the depth of the internals. It's the same as with a car: You need to know if it needs gasoline or diesel to stop at the right gasoline-pump.

I mean: Yes, it's complex, setting up train station is a bit complicated. The first time you do it. And perhaps the second. And I hate it also. Everybody knows, that this is not the right way to play it. Everybody would like to place a train-stop and then click on it and say "Make blueprint for this station with 4 wagons unload, use smart inserters, go". But this is an alpha game and you can not await, that it works like so. That is the job of the mods. And the players, cause this game is so open, that we really don't know, if this is the right, the best way to make it so. So there is no better way, than that we need to play it and need to tell other, how to play it in the best way. And THEN (only then) this can be auto-automated and built into the game.

BTW: There are ways to export your blueprints, there is the Foreman ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6516 ) and Blueprint String ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6742 ) mods.
And really: It is not so complicated to built rails. Just begin with a simple circle or oval and drive around a bit and then expand it. You can built rails, while driving. There are good Let's play videos, which explain that in detail. You will really say "Gosh, why didn't I've played with train before? This is fun!"

[Cloner]

... a large scale rail placement mode without running around as a character, e.g. something similar to the way it is done in transport tycoon, would help a lot.

I agree with this one. Maybe at some point, in this game of automation, I should be able to build a command centre, sit there, and no longer have to walk around to build stuff.

[kovarex]

I totally agree with your points, and there are plans (not official) for the (far) future to solve this issues.

Of all the aspects in Factorio, the one I dislike the most is mining-expansion. Resources keep running out and I have to rush out and perform the same thing, over and over again:

1) Explore the area to find resources

As you said, you have radars

2) Fight and clear any hives on the way (when impossible to avoid)

There are going to be ways, 1 or 2 major releases in the future to do it more centralised.

3) Create a rail all the way to the new base

I have a plan for much alternative convenient rail placing mechanism.

4) Pass power via power poles

Well this is one thing I don't have plan for, but this is the less annoying I guess. But who knows what will the future bring.

5) Create train station
5) To create a rail station automatically I use blueprints. However, I need a construction bot in the area and a bot station, including all the resources. So I have a requester box that requests all the needed resources for an expansion base. I go there, pick all the resources, build the station, put the put and use the blueprint. Once the bots are done, I destroy the tower, take the bots, and return everything to storage for next time.

I have a plan for this as well. The blueprint usage is not far as convenient as I plan it to be in the future.
I kind of plan to have some kind of personal roboport in the armor as equipment. That way you can just use blueprints everywhere and the robots will build it from you inventory without the need for complicated setup.

6) Create base layout (miners, conveyors, etc)

I made a little upgrade, that the blueprint building just skips the miners that have no resources and builds the rest, but it still needs better way to do it I agree.

It is fun to do the first 2 times, but doing it everytime your resources run out, is just repetitive and not fun.

Lets hope it gets better.

3. Rails and poles should be automated in a similar manner as above, however, in some kind of interface that allows you to say: Start rail here, end rail there. Factorio will build the path the best it can (if possible).

This is exactly what I have planned, togeter with the personal roboport, it should work great.

[Cloner]

...personal roboport

Mmmm i like this

[JoeSchmoe]

I totally agree with your points, and there are plans (not official) for the (far) future to solve this issues.
There are going to be ways, 1 or 2 major releases in the future to do it more centralised.

3) Create a rail all the way to the new base

I have a plan for much alternative convenient rail placing mechanism.

4) Pass power via power poles

Well this is one thing I don't have plan for, but this is the less annoying I guess. But who knows what will the future bring.

Electric Train Engine w/ Electric Rails.
Electric Rails could therefore expend the electrical network.