Friday Facts #424 - Gleba Pentapod Enemies

[MeduSalem]

It's not "vibes" telling me that they want to force us into a given playstyle. It's their exact words on other matters that similarly involve forcing us to play a given way.

In principle they are not forcing you to anything. You can simply opt to not buy the expansion if you don't like any of the things it is about. Not as if the world is coming to an end because of it. Just play the regular base game with the new update, slap a bunch of mods ontop and be happy, rather than rambling around in circles about things you cannot change. ^^

[Upserter]

I would just like to say to the Factorio devs: PLEASE don't compromise your artistic vision by pandering to the absurd safetyism of incredibly niche phobias. There is a huge difference between "I don't like spiders/holes" and having an actual clinical disability that would be reasonable to accommodate. For those players with an actual diagnosis (vanishingly rare), there's every chance that playing a game full of spiders/holes would be excellent exposure therapy.

[Haless]

Super awesome!

I love factorio because the factory challenge AND the enemies. Without the enemy the game would be boring for me.

I cant wait to see the mods based on these new enemies... frost wiggles, toxic stompers? Bring them on !

Are these only the new enemies? Or each planet will have its native fauna?

[adam_bise]

OK, once you see it you will never be able to unsee it. The new Stomper legs look like a penis, from the body up to the kneecaps. I'm just saying that what it looks like, and you got 5 of them per creature.

Yep! In factorio you get stomped on by a 5-penis tarrantula

But even that isn't as bad as running around trying to avoid being jizzed on by the worms.

Worm.gif (567.48 KiB) Viewed 1359 times

[Splitframe]

I would just like to say to the Factorio devs: PLEASE don't compromise your artistic vision by pandering to the absurd safetyism of incredibly niche phobias. There is a huge difference between "I don't like spiders/holes" and having an actual clinical disability that would be reasonable to accommodate. For those players with an actual diagnosis (vanishingly rare), there's every chance that playing a game full of spiders/holes would be excellent exposure therapy.

I'm sorry, I am mostly indifferent about this topic aside from having a preference.
But this is just such a bad comment. Nobody sacrifices any amount of artistic vision by having a settings checkbox that alters some visuals.
I have a friend who literally can not sleep that night and/or gets nightmares if he sees a big spider in the evening.
No amount of doctors who say that he hasn't "diagnosed arachnophobia" will change that, and even with people who
just find it gross or unappealing, that wouldn't change that they don't want that in the video game they play for logistics challenges.
At the end of the day the devs are gonna do what the devs gonna do, but putting addressing one of the most prevalent phobias
in the same category as pandering is just cold.

[Terrahertz]

Best case would be that they somehow make enemies optional AND add refrigeration so that we can indeed do what we want with the products of Gleba. We both know that that's not happening.

I am very certain enemies will be optional. And for the refrigeration part: I see what challenges they were aiming for with the spoilage mechanic and know refrigeration would render it completely pointless. So I don't need refrigeration

[MeduSalem]

I would just like to say to the Factorio devs: PLEASE don't compromise your artistic vision by pandering to the absurd safetyism of incredibly niche phobias. There is a huge difference between "I don't like spiders/holes" and having an actual clinical disability that would be reasonable to accommodate. For those players with an actual diagnosis (vanishingly rare), there's every chance that playing a game full of spiders/holes would be excellent exposure therapy.

I'm sorry, I am mostly indifferent about this topic aside from having a preference.
But this is just such a bad comment. Nobody sacrifices any amount of artistic vision by having a settings checkbox that alters some visuals.
I have a friend who literally can not sleep that night and/or gets nightmares if he sees a big spider in the evening.
No amount of doctors who say that he hasn't "diagnosed arachnophobia" will change that, and even with people who
just find it gross or unappealing, that wouldn't change that they don't want that in the video game they play for logistics challenges.
At the end of the day the devs are gonna do what the devs gonna do, but putting addressing one of the most prevalent phobias
in the same category as pandering is just cold.

Yea, I do agree that the guy above might have some harsh view on it, but I also think he is not entirely wrong or without a point either. There is also always a certain self-determination in life as well. It may be hard to swallow, but the truth. ^^

And while acknowledging that you are afraid of something is the first step, it is not the last step. Because there is also the willingness to work on your own phobias, whatever they are. And that is something many people don't want to do; they rather prematurely defeat themselves by sticking their heads into the sand, hence struggle their entire life, depending on others to tip-toe around them.

I personally would not want to be a slave to my fears for my entire life. And I say that because I also had to overcame several fears I formerly had because they hampered me in my life. For example, after nearly falling off a high ledge once, I developed a huge fear of great heights. But a civil engineer who cannot go up some stupid scaffold or near a ledge is useless because some things I just need to see with my own eyes to make a proper assessment and those things are not always in comfortable spots and I also cannot always send someone else to do the job. So I had to treat myself.

I think it is totally possible to a certain extend to overcome arachnophobia or trypophobia using exposure therapies lead by professionals. I don't know whether you can "cure" it entirely, I am no professional about that, because honestly even tho I mostly overcame my fear of heights I don't know if I would willingly go bungee jumping off a huge dam like James Bond in Goldeneye. Probably not unless my life depended on it and they would likely have to clean up my puke down at the bottom. ^^

Anyway I do agree that Factorio, being a game, might not be the best setting for such exposure therapies. Or maybe it is because it is an artificial environment and the creatures cannot hurt you. But at least the option to turn the enemies off would be decent, but I think that an option to turn them off will be there anyway. Because why wouldn't there be. ^^

[Saphira123456]

It's not "vibes" telling me that they want to force us into a given playstyle. It's their exact words on other matters that similarly involve forcing us to play a given way.

The devs explained they wanted to open different play styles where there was currently only one, for example with the beacon change in FFF #409. By slightly nerfing the current style (12 beacon setups) and buffing other styles (the less beacons the more buff) they're opening the field to many different equally efficient factory designs.
However, they never ever said they want to force some play style. I'm pretty sure of this. If I'm mistaken, please provide a quote from the corresponding FFF or wherever that is supposed to have been.

If it comes to the spoilage mechanics, it's just a mechanics that puts some constraint upon its usage as challenge. Just like that you have to research oil and find an oil resource field to be able to proceed with all oil-dependent technology. That's also some constraint.

An example for forced gameplay with spoilage: Material spoils so fast that there's only one way to build a factory to consume this material. It's forced if you only succeed, if you use stack inserters, the new 60/s belts and speed beacons in the corresponding production line. This would force every player build the same production line, otherwise fruit spoils before it even reaches the assembling machine. This is how other game implement challenges: they're designed so difficult or so constrained that every player can came up with just one and the same solution and no other solution will work.

Your example appears to be the way they want you to play. Since they have clearly stated that they want you to not be able to transport the fruit any considerable distance, including by rail.

I will attempt to find the part of the FFF in question.

Here it is, from FFF-414 regarding Spoilage:

"This process is inevitable and can't be delayed, however different items have different spoil times, ranging from about 2 hours to mere minutes." Later in the comments section it was clarified that the fruits are what have the shortest amount of time.

And your other statement, "If it comes to the spoilage mechanics, it's just a mechanics that puts some constraint upon its usage as challenge. Just like that you have to research oil and find an oil resource field to be able to proceed with all oil-dependent technology. That's also some constraint."

The difference is, your statement about oil is a reasonable constraint that has no time limit apart from one the player sets. You can choose when and where to research and make oil products and the oil doesn't spoil. It doesn't solidify and clog up your pipe network like spoilage will for conveyor lines, or solidify in the well and close it up over time.

You're not forced to rush oil production at all costs at any time, Even on a Deathworld your research path is not locked - you can still choose when and where to develop oil.

Spoilage is an unreasonable constraint that the developers set, mandating you to get the fruit harvested and processed within a certain amount of time or lose it. You cannot choose when and where to perform harvesting and processing on Gleba, you MUST process ALL substances IMMEDIATELY or lose a percentage of them.

The objective with spoilage is to force you to move lots of products very short distances, very fast and without buffering. I quote FFF-414 again: "Throughput is key."

You can buffer oil. You can't buffer anything on Gleba unless you want items that are two seconds away from becoming spoilage and therefore are of limited use to you.

And you also insulted me and my intelligence by claiming that the mechanics of spoilage are no different than the mechanics of research and oil production. As I have demonstrated in this post, your comparison to the research for oil technology in the game is not even close to spoilage mechanics as oil has nothing in common with said mechanics. By comparing them as if they were at all similar, you have done something akin to dismissing my concerns without addressing them or understanding them.

You may think I am stupid, but I can assure you I am not. I know the differences between researching and starting oil production in the current game, and spoilage in the expansion.

Constraints are one thing, but they must not be so tight that you are forced into a highly specific way of doing things.

Best case would be that they somehow make enemies optional AND add refrigeration so that we can indeed do what we want with the products of Gleba. We both know that that's not happening.

I am very certain enemies will be optional. And for the refrigeration part: I see what challenges they were aiming for with the spoilage mechanic and know refrigeration would render it completely pointless. So I don't need refrigeration

I'm glad you think you don't need refrigeration. I think the rest of us more casual players might.

I see what kind of challenges they were aiming for too. No mass or long-distance transportation. No buffering. Construction restricted to a tiny area by very fast belts and fast inserters ONLY.

Hope you're ready to waste a considerable amount of time, energy, and product.

That's not a challenge. That's not a constraint. That's a "we want you to play this way and ONLY this way."

You might consider it a challenge. But you don't speak for everyone.

In my opinion, and I'm not sure how widely this opinion is shared, rendering this particular set of "challenges" pointless is very much called for, and absolutely necessary.

It's not "vibes" telling me that they want to force us into a given playstyle. It's their exact words on other matters that similarly involve forcing us to play a given way.

In principle they are not forcing you to anything. You can simply opt to not buy the expansion if you don't like any of the things it is about. Not as if the world is coming to an end because of it. Just play the regular base game with the new update, slap a bunch of mods ontop and be happy, rather than rambling around in circles about things you cannot change. ^^

Thing is, I love most of the expansion so far. It's just certain elements of the mechanics introduced on Gleba that I dislike. So far, that's just two things - the lack of refrigeration and the apparent forcing-on of enemies.

I am looking forward to the expansion, and all the positive stuff therein, especially the new buildings like the Foundry, the recycler, and the elevated tracks. (I've wanted a vanilla way to void stuff since I started playing this game, and the Foundry is a much more realistic building to make metal plates in than an oven.) I like a vast majority of the stuff the expansion is about, and I will be buying it.

It's just certain elements of Gleba that I dislike. If there were a way to switch off spoilage and enemies, then I'd love it all.

[MeduSalem]

Thing is, I love most of the expansion so far. It's just certain elements of the mechanics introduced on Gleba that I dislike. So far, that's just two things - the lack of refrigeration and the apparent forcing-on of enemies.

I am looking forward to the expansion, and all the positive stuff therein, especially the new buildings like the Foundry and recycler. (I've wanted a vanilla way to void stuff since I started playing this game, and the Foundry is a much more realistic building to make metal components in than an oven.) I like a vast majority of the stuff the expansion is about, and I will be buying it.

It's just certain elements of Gleba that I dislike. If there were a way to switch off spoilage and enemies, then I'd love it all.

Then by all means, mod the hell out of the few parts you don't like. I am almost sure there will be such a mod, to prevent spoilage or vastly extend the lifetime, within the first week of release already because there will be other people with similar mindset such as you. ^^

Maybe the devs will even include an official option during map creation that sets the spoilage time factor to whatever you want so you can make it as easy or tough as you like. (That is what I would do if I were them).

Turning off the enemies I am sure will be there, because it currently is already and I see no reason why they would remove that because it is a rather popular option many people use (even without phobias). I assume the nests will still remain to be able to drop the eggs required for crafting or something, but the nests would not spawn enemies, similar to as some other people suggested already.

Anyway it is too early to cry wolf; and even if in the end the options you want are not officially part of the game there sure as hell will be a mod for them. From my experience for popular games there always is a mod for everything.

Also don't forget that a lot of the Quality of Life things they add officially with the update/expansion are parts of currently existing popular mods; so it would be very likely that some options they miss out on for the first release of the expansion and where some popular QoL mod arises might eventually be added officially later.



Anyway there are tons of other games where their creators hand out a particular intended rule set to go with the games because that is how they envisioned it. Does not mean you have to play it like that when there are options to mod it.

For example many of my real life friends don't like the official Monopoly game rule that you are supposed to auction off each property people land on if the person landing on it doesn't want to buy it immediately. I don't have an issue with the rule, because I know it is supposed to speed up the game and adds some additional spice into it because it can ruin your strategy. But because my friends don't like it we often play without that rule. Easy as that. Now imagine us heading to Hasbro's official forum and complain and accuse the designers for including the rule. The staff there would probably ask us if we are trolling or crazy. ^^

I do get from your comments that you are somewhat concerned & idealistic about it, but what I am trying to say is, be somewhat reasonable with your expectations, the devs will never be able to make everyone 100% happy. I am sure there will be parts about the expansion that I won't be 100% happy about either or where I need to get accustomed to. But the final part is customizing/modding the game to our likings.

[Splitframe]

Yea, I do agree that the guy above might have some harsh view on it, but I also think he is not entirely wrong or without a point either. There is also always a certain self-determination in life as well. It may be hard to swallow, but the truth. ^^

And while acknowledging that you are afraid of something is the first step, it is not the last step. Because there is also the willingness to work on your own phobias, whatever they are. And that is something many people don't want to do; they rather prematurely defeat themselves by sticking their heads into the sand, hence struggle their entire life, depending on others to tip-toe around them.

I personally would not want to be a slave to my fears for my entire life. And I say that because I also had to overcame several fears I formerly had because they hampered me in my life. For example, after nearly falling off a high ledge once, I developed a huge fear of great heights. But a civil engineer who cannot go up some stupid scaffold or near a ledge is useless because some things I just need to see with my own eyes to make a proper assessment and those things are not always in comfortable spots and I also cannot always send someone else to do the job. So I had to treat myself.

I think it is totally possible to a certain extend to overcome arachnophobia or trypophobia using exposure therapies lead by professionals. I don't know whether you can "cure" it entirely, I am no professional about that, because honestly even tho I mostly overcame my fear of heights I don't know if I would willingly go bungee jumping off a huge dam like James Bond in Goldeneye. Probably not unless my life depended on it and they would likely have to clean up my puke down at the bottom. ^^

Anyway I do agree that Factorio, being a game, might not be the best setting for such exposure therapies. Or maybe it is because it is an artificial environment and the creatures cannot hurt you. But at least the option to turn the enemies off would be decent, but I think that an option to turn them off will be there anyway. Because why wouldn't there be. ^^

I also agree that it's worth confronting certain fears. But we live in central Europe, so his irrational fear of spiders is not going to cripple him in any really meaningful way, aside from, well, playing video games that are heavy on the spiders. But that opens up a whole can of which fears are worth confronting and which are not. A quick search results in a lowball estimate that 2% of all people have some degree of arachnophobia. The devs will decide how much effort they are willing to put in as to not lose a potential 2% of their player base.

[Saphira123456]

Thing is, I love most of the expansion so far. It's just certain elements of the mechanics introduced on Gleba that I dislike. So far, that's just two things - the lack of refrigeration and the apparent forcing-on of enemies.

I am looking forward to the expansion, and all the positive stuff therein, especially the new buildings like the Foundry and recycler. (I've wanted a vanilla way to void stuff since I started playing this game, and the Foundry is a much more realistic building to make metal components in than an oven.) I like a vast majority of the stuff the expansion is about, and I will be buying it.

It's just certain elements of Gleba that I dislike. If there were a way to switch off spoilage and enemies, then I'd love it all.

Then by all means, mod the hell out of the few parts you don't like. I am almost sure there will be such a mod, to prevent spoilage or vastly extend the lifetime, within the first week of release already because there will be other people with similar mindset such as you. ^^

Maybe the devs will even include an official option during map creation that sets the spoilage time factor to whatever you want so you can make it as easy or tough as you like. (That is what I would do if I were them).

Turning off the enemies I am sure will be there, because it currently is already and I see no reason why they would remove that because it is a rather popular option many people use (even without phobias). I assume the nests will still remain to be able to drop the eggs required for crafting or something, but the nests would not spawn enemies, similar to as some other people suggested already.

Anyway it is too early to cry wolf; and even if in the end the options you want are not officially part of the game there sure as hell will be a mod for them. From my experience for popular games there always is a mod for everything.

Also don't forget that a lot of the Quality of Life things they add officially with the update/expansion are parts of currently existing popular mods; so it would be very likely that some options they miss out on for the first release of the expansion and where some popular QoL mod arises might eventually be added officially later.



Anyway there are tons of other games where their creators hand out a particular intended rule set to go with the games because that is how they envisioned it. Does not mean you have to play it like that when there are options to mod it.

For example many of my real life friends don't like the official Monopoly game rule that you are supposed to auction off each property people land on if the person landing on it doesn't want to buy it immediately. I don't have an issue with the rule, because I know it is supposed to speed up the game and adds some additional spice into it because it can ruin your strategy. But because my friends don't like it we often play without that rule. Easy as that. Now imagine us heading to Hasbro's official forum and complain and accuse the designers for including the rule. The staff there would probably ask us if we are trolling or crazy. ^^

I do get from your comments that you are somewhat concerned & idealistic about it, but what I am trying to say is, be somewhat reasonable with your expectations, the devs will never be able to make everyone 100% happy. I am sure there will be parts about the expansion that I won't be 100% happy about either or where I need to get accustomed to. But the final part is customizing/modding the game to our likings.

I see and agree with all of your points here. We shall see if that is in fact the case or not.

That being said, I do not know how to mod, and will need someone to teach me, however this is not the place to ask for that. The modding scene of any game is extremely daunting and I will not be able to dive in without a guide. (There are a few things I want to mod into the game as it is now as well. There are mods that do what I want already, but they seem to be severely out of date.)

[mmmPI]

I am very certain enemies will be optional. And for the refrigeration part: I see what challenges they were aiming for with the spoilage mechanic and know refrigeration would render it completely pointless. So I don't need refrigeration

I don't want refrigeration, i think it would miss the point of creating a variety of challenges that all participate in the define atmosphere of each planets.

If interestings things are all optionnals i think it prevent the establishment of mechanics interwoving different aspects of the game and relying on them all being active at the same time to provide an more immersive experience.

In that regard even if ennemies were not optionnal like they were for a long part of the game existence, it wouldn't change anything i think because players would makes mod for them to be optionnal, as it was and is still the case.

[bnrom]

I'm a big fan of the new enemies. I really like how they differ from the biters both aesthetically and mechanically (as they can travel over walls, and even fire enemies over walls!). It's all very cool.

One tiny thing: the animation for the laser targeting the Stomper looks really strange, e.g. at 1:20 in the video, the Stomper goes from above the player to below them, and the laser is fixed on the enemy underside the whole while. The targeting means that the laser is somehow passing over the Stomper to then hit it's underside.

[Upserter]

I would just like to say to the Factorio devs: PLEASE don't compromise your artistic vision by pandering to the absurd safetyism of incredibly niche phobias. There is a huge difference between "I don't like spiders/holes" and having an actual clinical disability that would be reasonable to accommodate. For those players with an actual diagnosis (vanishingly rare), there's every chance that playing a game full of spiders/holes would be excellent exposure therapy.

I'm sorry, I am mostly indifferent about this topic aside from having a preference.
But this is just such a bad comment. Nobody sacrifices any amount of artistic vision by having a settings checkbox that alters some visuals.
I have a friend who literally can not sleep that night and/or gets nightmares if he sees a big spider in the evening.
No amount of doctors who say that he hasn't "diagnosed arachnophobia" will change that, and even with people who
just find it gross or unappealing, that wouldn't change that they don't want that in the video game they play for logistics challenges.
At the end of the day the devs are gonna do what the devs gonna do, but putting addressing one of the most prevalent phobias
in the same category as pandering is just cold.

My comment about exposure therapy was quite serious. It’s an effective treatment/mitigation for phobias, and you couldn’t ask for a better “exposure” environment than a game. Completely safe, can be turned off instantly, doesn’t feature real spiders anyway.

Avoiding fears only makes them worse. Asking the world to change to accommodate an irrational subclinical phobia is avoidant and self-sabotaging.

[mmmPI]

My comment about exposure therapy was quite serious. It’s an effective treatment/mitigation for phobias, and you couldn’t ask for a better “exposure” environment than a game. Completely safe, can be turned off instantly, doesn’t feature real spiders anyway.

Avoiding fears only makes them worse. Asking the world to change to accommodate an irrational subclinical phobia is avoidant and self-sabotaging.

I agree that exposure therapy is the most thought after treatment for phobia, sometimes the only one known, and that video games are the perfect environment. I think also that all phobia by definition are irrationnals , it doesn't necessarily means the world doesn't need to accomodate for their existence whatsoever, with some nuance it can be said that such accomodation is impossible when it aims at fitting every single individual phobia at the same time, and therefore some choices have to be made. Like the number of legs, if it's 0 or 1 like worm or snake it can trigger phobia, if it's 2 it can trigger it too, and more than 2 also. You gotta pick a number though.

[bobucles]

I think also that all phobia by definition are irrationnals

that's probably in the textbook somewhere.
But yes, the point of a phobia is the person can not reasonably react to it. That's what makes it an uncontrolled fear.

[Koub]

[Koub] Reminder, this is Factorio forums, not psychology forums. Please stay on topic.

[adam_bise]

What is wrong here guys?

Today, we're in the era of drama. People can't just not like something, tell what they dislike, and move along. There needs to be rivers of blood tears, yelling that the game will be #literally unplayable, threaten that some people might not want to buy a game if it's not 100% tailored to their needs, ...

The funny part is: First you had a whole drama about the devs removing "The Challenge" by reworking the fluid system and now you have drama about the devs adding a new challenge, a designed challenge btw not something esoteric originating from technical limitations.

And I know these are two different groups, but I imagine they get along pretty well, as they can agree on: "The game is going in the wrong direction".

I would also guess a lot of the people who want refrigerators, would not be happy if those refrigerators just extend the lifetime of items by a bit. For some people anything that is not rendering the mechanic pointless will not be enough.

Yea, I don't get it. I've liked pretty much every expansion FFF so far, including the controversial ones like quality and fluids, and completely stoked about the first reveal of new totally kick ass enemies. I find it odd how there is typically complaining every week, because I can't relate. I'm always excited to see a new FFF post and usually pleasantly surprised. I have honestly wondered if people just enjoy complaining or what, cause the complaints don't seem very well founded.

Like this one, when I think about all of the expansions I've seen over the years, I can't recall a single expansion for a game where you face enemies in combat that didn't include newer, more ferocious enemies. Isn't it kind of the point to make them ferocious? lol

Seriously, get a grip. It's a 2D isometric game with aliens, and the expansion has big spider-looking aliens. How do we have several pages of complaints? I honestly feel sorry for the devs putting in all of this hard work just so people can complain incessantly over every little thing.

I love Factorio, favorite game ever. I love Wube, favorite developers ever. Their optimizations and bugfixing is peerless in the entire gaming industry IMO. Go play any Bethesda title if you dislike bugfixing. If you don't like spiders go play my little pony. Or, what? Are you afraid of unicorns and rainbows too? If you don't like the expansion, DONT BUY IT! But jeez, the constant complaining is really getting old.

[AsbestosConsumer]

Amazingly executed, however I am a bit curious.

The Pentapods are descended from starfish, so they are echinoderms. But however, echinoderms lack a central nervous system (this means that they lack a central brain) although it may just be a result of evolution. I also notice the heart. Since echinoderms use a water vascular system to breathe, there wouldn't be a need for a heart or even a lung. Then again, this can just be another result of evolution. But also, where did their tube feet go? Did evolution remove them or are they now a vestigial structure? I am curious about the regenerative abilities of the Pentapods. Can they regenerate completely from a single arm? I apologize for the density of questions.

I absolutely love these designs and I have no gripes whatsoever, I just prefer more specifics about their anatomy and physiology as I find them very intriguing.

Thanks.

[Cutemine]

The Stompers feet should definitively make some smoke, dust or splashes pop up when they land on something, depending on the surface type of course.
Even when they rotate in place there should at least be a little "effect" on the ground. This might help to hide the some tricky animation details like the flickering of the "toes" as well.