We support Ukraine

[mmmPI]

No problem. We can all agree to disagree! There are probably several reason which we will never know but can only speculate on- I don't believe much of what the US, Ukrainian or Russian governments say. Propaganda is rife nowadays. I don't really care what the reasons or justifications are - I don't want to see WW3 occur. I think most of Europe doesn't either!

Yeah calling for peace, soldier back home, get back to normal life, think about the future, with all those climate and virus things, humans don't need war on top of that

[mmmPI]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kr ... 022-03-24/
Kremlin says Abramovich played early role in Ukraine peace talks

Do you think this is promising ?

[jodokus31]

Why do you think they do not want to enforce a 'no fly zone' as has been requested by Ukraine? If they interfere, or supply aircraft to Ukraine, enforcing this, it will be taken as military aggression by USA towards Russia, which is part of the reason Russia has gone into Ukraine (concerns that Ukraine would becomes part of Nato ) the overall concern is that it will become WWIII b/w Russia and the US. And the real threat of Nuclear war...

Here we go again about NATO Ukraine.
How exactly a defensive military alliance is a threat to russia considering Latvia (NATO member) is already bordering russia and can set up NATO nukes some 550kms from moscow?
It is obviously a threat to further conquest of ex-ussr states, and THAT is the real reason for the invasion. putin just wants new territories and not some mythical NATO.
NATO threat to russia is fake news for russian babushkas watching TV. It's a threat to putin's ambitions, nothing more.
Dont remember NATO conquering/invading any states, yet russian history is full of invasions with putin or his predecessors.

That's a one sided opinion/view as you don't have any proof for that, right?

[tuhe]

I did not say the west is to blame - i pointed out that the speaker in the video suggests this. I'm not 'buying' into the bs undercurrents of 'Us vs Them'
in this forum which is abundantly obvious.

Fair enough -- but people suggest all sorts of things on this issue. Putting out a controversial/inflammatory view on this subject without qualifying which parts (if any) you feel are persuasive is imo not such a great basis for a discussion, especially when this topic has been endlessly bombarded by videos.

[tuhe]

Why do you think they do not want to enforce a 'no fly zone' as has been requested by Ukraine? If they interfere, or supply aircraft to Ukraine, enforcing this, it will be taken as military aggression by USA towards Russia, which is part of the reason Russia has gone into Ukraine (concerns that Ukraine would becomes part of Nato ) the overall concern is that it will become WWIII b/w Russia and the US. And the real threat of Nuclear war...

If we are to believe this war started because Russia 'felt threatened', it must be either because the Russian government is delusional, or because it is rational for the Russian government to 'feel thretened' right?

Lets suppose that this war had not happened and that Ukraine had become part of Nato, AND nuclear weapons had been stationed in Ukraine. Can you rationally explain how this makes a war of aggression by Nato against Russia more likely, because I just cant see it?

In either case, Nato is a defensive alliance. It does not have the political mechanisms to decide to attack another country out of the blue. In either case, an attack on Russia, regardless of a few extra missiles that could just as well be in Estonia, would not make a difference: Europe/US/Russia would be effectively wiped out. In either case, even if a nuclear war with Russia could somehow be 'won', what on earth would Nato-countries stand to gain from Russia they cannot get much, much easier through mutually beneficial trade?

[jodokus31]

Yes, there are doubts in either depiction

It's not only about doubt, it's about consistensy, for example, if one media claims at home to the population that it is fighting in Ukraine to combat the nazi, one cannot at the same time say the reason is the expansion of NATO and therefore threaten to use nuclear weapon.

If you are here to liberate the Ukrainian people, then you can't use nuclear weapon.

If you are willing to use nuclear weapon because you think it's NATO who is attacking you then you need to admit that you are not helping the Ukrainian people but using strengh to try and submit them to protect your own interest.

Either reasonning is consistent as a line of defense, which again like in a trial doesn't have to be trusted, just scrutinized for consistency

I don't think, they (russian gov.) are willing to use nuclar weapons or want to directly attack NATO. If Ukraine was already in NATO, then it would be too late without risking a world war. But I guess, nazis a greater enemy picture than NATO to explain the war.
At least, that's what I understand.

[Djmixxx]

Good link for djmix to read about nazi fakes from russia
https://jewishjournal.com/news/worldwid ... ld-war-ii/

We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression.

Thanks for a link.
Like any other country, it has right-wing extremists and violent xenophobic groups. Ukraine also ought to better confront the darker chapters of its painful and complicated history.

[mmmPI]

Why do you think they do not want to enforce a 'no fly zone' as has been requested by Ukraine? If they interfere, or supply aircraft to Ukraine, enforcing this, it will be taken as military aggression by USA towards Russia, which is part of the reason Russia has gone into Ukraine (concerns that Ukraine would becomes part of Nato ) the overall concern is that it will become WWIII b/w Russia and the US. And the real threat of Nuclear war...

Here we go again about NATO Ukraine.
How exactly a defensive military alliance is a threat to russia considering Latvia (NATO member) is already bordering russia and can set up NATO nukes some 550kms from moscow?
It is obviously a threat to further conquest of ex-ussr states, and THAT is the real reason for the invasion. putin just wants new territories and not some mythical NATO.
NATO threat to russia is fake news for russian babushkas watching TV. It's a threat to putin's ambitions, nothing more.
Dont remember NATO conquering/invading any states, yet russian history is full of invasions with putin or his predecessors.

That's a one sided opinion/view as you don't have any proof for that, right?

I think it is fair to say that the question asked was the opinion, it's highly speculative if you ask "why do you think X doesn't want " how can you proove ? you just say what you think. enterisys had a clear stance since the beginning and has said this already.

The fact that Latvia touches Russia and is part of NATO is public knowledge provided you can place Latvia on a map, which is tricky

[CSO]

I did not say the west is to blame - i pointed out that the speaker in the video suggests this. I'm not 'buying' into the bs undercurrents of 'Us vs Them'
in this forum which is abundantly obvious.

Fair enough -- but people suggest all sorts of things on this issue. Putting out a controversial/inflammatory view on this subject without qualifying which parts (if any) you feel are persuasive is imo not such a great basis for a discussion, especially when this topic has been endlessly bombarded by videos.

As I pointed out to mmmPI - I should have specified that the video came out around the 4th March 2022. I simply needed to make myself clear about where I stand. Right in the middle with humanity. I want to have a better understanding of why this has occurred. I take offence only when someone tries to force their views upon me or tries to tell me what I can and can't say. I'm not anti Russian or anti Ukrainian or anti US. We all bleed the same color blood! And no matter what happens in Ukraine, one way or the other, it is already a devastated land!
In what way was I inflammatory/controversial? I made no outrageous comments or suggestions - I simply offered it (video link) explaining what it was generally about, for another point of view, for you, and others, to make up your mind if you watch it and if it was of interest/relevant.
Why should I point out persuasive parts - that not for me to do , that's for you to work out.
Am I not right with my comment with the 'undercurrent' comment - I'm capable of seeing what has transpired throughout this forum if this is what you are referring to. I wasn't forcing anyone to watch it. If you took offence to this, I'm sorry, but that's on you, not me.

[enterisys]

Why do you think they do not want to enforce a 'no fly zone' as has been requested by Ukraine? If they interfere, or supply aircraft to Ukraine, enforcing this, it will be taken as military aggression by USA towards Russia, which is part of the reason Russia has gone into Ukraine (concerns that Ukraine would becomes part of Nato ) the overall concern is that it will become WWIII b/w Russia and the US. And the real threat of Nuclear war...

Here we go again about NATO Ukraine.
How exactly a defensive military alliance is a threat to russia considering Latvia (NATO member) is already bordering russia and can set up NATO nukes some 550kms from moscow?
It is obviously a threat to further conquest of ex-ussr states, and THAT is the real reason for the invasion. putin just wants new territories and not some mythical NATO.
NATO threat to russia is fake news for russian babushkas watching TV. It's a threat to putin's ambitions, nothing more.
Dont remember NATO conquering/invading any states, yet russian history is full of invasions with putin or his predecessors.

That's a one sided opinion/view as you don't have any proof for that, right?

Proof of what?
Google maps for Latvia location?
Wikipedia for russian conflicts?
putin personal quotes that he regrets living in russia and not in USSR?

[Djmixxx]

The biggest mistake is to consider Ukraine as a united country. Those who have been to northern and southern Italy can roughly imagine what I'm talking about.

[enterisys]

Good link for djmix to read about nazi fakes from russia
https://jewishjournal.com/news/worldwid ... ld-war-ii/

We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression.

Thanks for a link.
Like any other country, it has right-wing extremists and violent xenophobic groups. Ukraine also ought to better confront the darker chapters of its painful and complicated history.

Thank you for finally agreeing with me.

[jodokus31]

Lets suppose that this war had not happened and that Ukraine had become part of Nato, AND nuclear weapons had been stationed in Ukraine. Can you rationally explain how this makes a war of aggression by Nato against Russia more likely, because I just cant see it?

Let's assume Russia, China, India, Brazil and so on, found a defensive alliance. Then they would ask Mexico to join.
What do you think will happen?

[enterisys]

The biggest mistake is to consider Ukraine as a united country. Those who have been to northern and southern Italy can roughly imagine what I'm talking about.

74% supported current president, any more fakes?

[enterisys]

Lets suppose that this war had not happened and that Ukraine had become part of Nato, AND nuclear weapons had been stationed in Ukraine. Can you rationally explain how this makes a war of aggression by Nato against Russia more likely, because I just cant see it?

Let's assume Russia, China, India, Brazil and so on, found a defensive alliance. Then they would ask Mexico to join.
What do you think will happen?

NATO didnt ask or force anyone to join them, its the countries that feel threatened by russia join NATO. russia forces countries to join NATO.

[Djmixxx]

you have a rare opportunity to communicate with Ukrainian nationalists.
And with one russian bot.

[jodokus31]

Why do you think they do not want to enforce a 'no fly zone' as has been requested by Ukraine? If they interfere, or supply aircraft to Ukraine, enforcing this, it will be taken as military aggression by USA towards Russia, which is part of the reason Russia has gone into Ukraine (concerns that Ukraine would becomes part of Nato ) the overall concern is that it will become WWIII b/w Russia and the US. And the real threat of Nuclear war...

Here we go again about NATO Ukraine.
How exactly a defensive military alliance is a threat to russia considering Latvia (NATO member) is already bordering russia and can set up NATO nukes some 550kms from moscow?
It is obviously a threat to further conquest of ex-ussr states, and THAT is the real reason for the invasion. putin just wants new territories and not some mythical NATO.
NATO threat to russia is fake news for russian babushkas watching TV. It's a threat to putin's ambitions, nothing more.
Dont remember NATO conquering/invading any states, yet russian history is full of invasions with putin or his predecessors.

That's a one sided opinion/view as you don't have any proof for that, right?

Proof of what?

"putin just wants new territories"
"NATO threat to russia is fake news"

[Djmixxx]

The biggest mistake is to consider Ukraine as a united country. Those who have been to northern and southern Italy can roughly imagine what I'm talking about.

74% supported current president, any more fakes?

n December 2021 a Levada Center poll found that 65% approved of Putin personally, That jumped to 69% who had a positive view of Putin in January 2022, and 71% who approved of the Russian president in February 2022 .

[Djmixxx]

"putin just wants new territories"
"NATO threat to russia is fake news"

in order to learn something, I also often repeated text before.

[mmmPI]

I don't think, they (russian gov.) are willing to use nuclar weapons or want to directly attack NATO. If Ukraine was already in NATO, then it would be too late without risking a world war. But I guess, nazis a greater enemy picture than NATO to explain the war.
At least, that's what I understand.

I think this is a rationnal view for geopolitic, or maybe in other word i share that perspective. I have seen many videos that explain how the Baltic state were to be invaded by Russia and i was aware that the USA warned about the invasion of Ukraine. I did not thought it would be happening i thought it was something the USA was saying to continue selling weapon to NATO country. But then USA shifter their politics against China and not Russia, i think there was like a window of opportunity that was taken by russian leadership considering Biden was new president and EU presidency being the french which is at the same time in election where it is contested. And after the pandemic, all things, maybe also self-intoxicated on his popularity in the world, they took the risk.

It is not know if Ukraine would have joined NATO, there was no concrete schedule as far as i'm awnare, no proof like an agenda, same for the EU those things can stay at the stage on the request for very long. The war is accelerating this, and in a way backfire to the point that NATO is remobilized. The french president said in 2019 that NATO was "cerebraly dead", and now he is backtracking his word. All the consequences seem to be going wrong for Russia. Ukrainian people are displaced, they will keep the memory for long, the land is devasted. The russian citizens will also suffer from that.

It's a tragedy