Blueprint Library Feedback

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Qon
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Qon »

EnerJi wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:32 am
In that case, what about simply removing the ability to hotlink from hotbar directly to the blueprint library? If you want to use a blueprint from the hotbar, it must be moved or copied into inventory first. Thoughts?
Sounds like a lose-lose situation. No benefits at all. Enforces a lot of extra inventory management to the point that I'd rather randomly lose blueprints than being forced to constantly doing manual labour to deal with my bluepints and then somehow manage to also get lost in what blueprint is which becasue I have too many in my inventory and start accidentally remove the wrong ones from my library anyways. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take this seriously. :? :o
EnerJi wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:32 am
Qon wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:40 pm
Serenity wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:47 pm
Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to delete things directly from the quickbar at all. And the game could force you to go through the library menu for that. But other people may consider that inconvenient
A decent solution. Possibly make it somewhat easy and possible but different in a way that makes it clear that it exists in the library. Like instead of a dlete button, having a button that opens up the library and the book it is stored at, with the blueprint marked so you find it and can open it from the library and open up it again from there.
I think this is the minimum solution that should be considered. It must be made harder and more obvious when deleting a blueprint that exists in the library.
Qon wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:40 pm
EnerJi wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:31 pm

In general, modal pop-up windows are considered bad UX, but considering we are two weeks away from "1.0" and there likely isn't time to test and implement significant changes, I wouldn't be opposed to this.
Or just have a trash bin that blueprints are moved to instead of deleted when you press the delete button. It can delete the oldest things automatically once it reaches some max capacity. A solution similar to auto saves. Make recovery easy. And it's as simple to implement as a confirm dialog, but better in every way.
I think this would be a terrific solution (and very intuitive as the trash bin metaphor is pervasive across many applications and operating systems), perhaps for a post-1.0 patch.
I'm glad we agree on these. Anyone who see any disadvantages whatsoever worth considering with these two? Either the last or both of these together should almost completely fix most issues with people accidentally losing blueprints, and they are both easy to implement. And keeps restrictions and feature losses to a minimum.

As an additional point, clear blueprint hotkey could be brought back and send the old content to the trashbin also, and instead of just clearing it, it could activate the new "+" feature instead that fills a blueprint with new contents but keeps the icons. That's more like 2 suggestions in one though, the second part might have some disadvantage?

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

KatherineOfSky wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:20 pm
I have 2k hours in the game, just FYI.
I have more hours than KoS?!
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Yoyobuae »

1. You want to delete a blueprint from hotbar
2. You mistakenly right-click on it (instead of MMB)
3. A window pops-up which looks nearly exactly the same for inventory or library blueprints
4. You click delete
5. You've deleted the blueprint (or book) from blueprint library unknowingly

Right now the only thing stopping someone from making this mistake is in the window title text that reads "Blueprint in the blueprint library" rather than "Blueprint item". IMO, the fact that it is blueprint library being accessed should be more prominent. There should be special icons or an special window background color showing this.

If the entire window was tinted light blue rather than the default gray then the player will immediately notice something different. If that same color were used consistently in the blueprint library then the player will immediately make the connection "Oh, this is the blueprint library that I would be deleting from. I don't want to do that".

Maybe changing the window color won't be in-line with the UI design. But it could be anything else that's prominent enough to be noticed at first glance.

EDIT: I think that shortcuts being able to go directly into the library is very powerful. For example take a book from library and drop it in hotbar. Now you can easily add blueprints to said book which exists in the library, without manually having to navigate to it each time (it could be nested deeply inside the library). Teaching players to make that same kind of connection in their heads is needed though.
Last edited by Yoyobuae on Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by pf_moore »

Most of the new functionality seems OK to me (although I've not been a heavy blueprint user up to now). But the one thing that I'm not happy with is how easy it is to accidentally delete a book from the library. I lost a book that way (luckily, I think it was one I'd imported rather than one I'd built from scratch).

I consider the library as a "safe place" to keep my blueprints, as opposed to my character inventory and hotbar, which are transient. If it's this easy to lose stuff from the library, that defeats a lot of the benefits for me, and I feel that things have gone back to where they used to be, with maintaining an external directory of exported books being the only really safe approach...

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Qon »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:57 pm
1. You want to delete a blueprint from hotbar
2. You mistakenly right-click on it (instead of MMB)
3. A window pops-up which looks nearly exactly the same for inventory or library blueprints
4. You click delete
5. You've deleted the blueprint (or book) from blueprint library unknowingly

Right now the only thing stopping someone from making this mistake is in the window title text that reads "Blueprint in the blueprint library" rather than "Blueprint item". IMO, the fact that it is blueprint library being accessed should be more prominent. There should be special icons or an special window background color showing this.
Stop.
In step 1 you want to unlink a BP from the hotbar.
In step 3 you instead decide to destroy the blueprint.
Those are different actions.

It doesn't matter if it is stored in library or character inventory, the fact is that you lose the blueprint when you press the red trashcan. If you want to keep the blueprint, don't get rid of it.

If you never have copies of blueprints then you are always deleting the original when using the trashcan icon. But how often do you really need to copy blueprints to your inventory? If you are doing it as a habit from before when you couldn't link blueprints in library to the quickbar then that is the habit that is causing the issues and that you need to unlearn now that there are better tools. Needlessly copying blueprints over and over is going to make you lose track of what blueprint is the right almost no matter what system is used. That's at least my interpretation now.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:30 pm
Serenity wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:41 am
EnerJi wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:32 am
In that case, what about simply removing the ability to hotlink from hotbar directly to the blueprint library? If you want to use a blueprint from the hotbar, it must be moved or copied into inventory first. Thoughts?
Noooo. One of the reasons for the linking is to stop cluttering up your inventory with blueprints all the time
My shamelessly self-advertised quote here would be consistant with what you say.
Koub wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:38 am
I also could do with new blueprints directly created in the library, instead of the inventory, and never being able to move a blueprint from the library to the inventory. However that would break recursive blueprint mod (and any mod relying on adding a blueprint in a container), which could be missed by some people. Or maybe, as a compromise, that a blueprint taken from the library and dropped into the inventory would be copied, and not moved.
It should definitely get copied.
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by DaveMcW »

If you edit a blueprint by right-clicking it in your hotbar, the delete button should be disabled. The only way to delete a blueprint should be to right-click it in its original location.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Yoyobuae »

Qon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:15 pm
Stop.
In step 1 you want to unlink a BP from the hotbar.
In step 3 you instead decide to destroy the blueprint.
Those are different actions.
I don't know, dude. I'm just taking the place of a new player.

1. As a new player I'm introduced to this UI window to manage blueprints on my inventory
2. This UI includes a button to delete the blueprint from my inventory
3. I'm trying to clear space so I make sure to first save the blueprint in library
4. Then I want to get rid of the blueprint so I go to hotbar and try deleting it, with unfortunate results

No matter how much you explain it here it won't change the fact that it is a very easy mistake to make. The user will always find a way to unintentionally and unwillingly misuse the UI. The UI should be designed to make it hard for those mistakes to happen.

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~ Rich Cook
DaveMcW wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:18 am
If you edit a blueprint by right-clicking it in your hotbar, the delete button should be disabled. The only way to delete a blueprint should be to right-click it in its original location.
The problem with this is that the hotbar is just a link into the blueprint library. When you right-click a blueprint in the hotbar, the window that pops-up is exactly the same as the window that pops-up when you right-click the blueprint in library (because the blueprint shortcut in hotbar is functionally the same as the blueprint in the library).

So by asking "when you right-click a blueprint in hotbar, the delete button should be disabled" you are also asking for the delete button to be disabled when you right click a blueprint in library (which is not desirable). Unless those two windows are made slightly different.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Durentis »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:37 am
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~ Rich Cook
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by DaveMcW »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:37 am
Unless those two windows are made slightly different.
Yes. The hotbar window should be different because it does not have a delete button.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Abcdefgdude »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:30 pm
Serenity wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:41 am
EnerJi wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:32 am
In that case, what about simply removing the ability to hotlink from hotbar directly to the blueprint library? If you want to use a blueprint from the hotbar, it must be moved or copied into inventory first. Thoughts?
Noooo. One of the reasons for the linking is to stop cluttering up your inventory with blueprints all the time
My shamelessly self-advertised quote here would be consistant with what you say.
Koub wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:38 am
I also could do with new blueprints directly created in the library, instead of the inventory, and never being able to move a blueprint from the library to the inventory. However that would break recursive blueprint mod (and any mod relying on adding a blueprint in a container), which could be missed by some people. Or maybe, as a compromise, that a blueprint taken from the library and dropped into the inventory would be copied, and not moved.
It should definitely get copied.
Personally, I hate copies of blueprints except for very specific use cases that are currently handled just fine with the copy button. Having copies of blueprints makes it difficult to adjust the blueprints title, description, or icons, and I find myself constantly checking if the bp is an original or a copy. Currently, blueprints act exactly like every other item in the game-you can move them between containers (inventory, chests, and the library), create hotbar shortcuts in , and there is only one in existence unless explicitly copied. This is intuitive and follows all behavior from other items.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

Abcdefgdude wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:45 am
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:30 pm
Serenity wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:41 am
EnerJi wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:32 am
In that case, what about simply removing the ability to hotlink from hotbar directly to the blueprint library? If you want to use a blueprint from the hotbar, it must be moved or copied into inventory first. Thoughts?
Noooo. One of the reasons for the linking is to stop cluttering up your inventory with blueprints all the time
My shamelessly self-advertised quote here would be consistant with what you say.
Koub wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:38 am
I also could do with new blueprints directly created in the library, instead of the inventory, and never being able to move a blueprint from the library to the inventory. However that would break recursive blueprint mod (and any mod relying on adding a blueprint in a container), which could be missed by some people. Or maybe, as a compromise, that a blueprint taken from the library and dropped into the inventory would be copied, and not moved.
It should definitely get copied.
Personally, I hate copies of blueprints except for very specific use cases that are currently handled just fine with the copy button. Having copies of blueprints makes it difficult to adjust the blueprints title, description, or icons, and I find myself constantly checking if the bp is an original or a copy. Currently, blueprints act exactly like every other item in the game-you can move them between containers (inventory, chests, and the library), create hotbar shortcuts in , and there is only one in existence unless explicitly copied. This is intuitive and follows all behavior from other items.
But why would you ever put the real thing in your inventory.
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Koub »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:55 am
Abcdefgdude wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:45 am
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:30 pm
Serenity wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:41 am

Noooo. One of the reasons for the linking is to stop cluttering up your inventory with blueprints all the time
My shamelessly self-advertised quote here would be consistant with what you say.
Koub wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:38 am
I also could do with new blueprints directly created in the library, instead of the inventory, and never being able to move a blueprint from the library to the inventory. However that would break recursive blueprint mod (and any mod relying on adding a blueprint in a container), which could be missed by some people. Or maybe, as a compromise, that a blueprint taken from the library and dropped into the inventory would be copied, and not moved.
It should definitely get copied.
Personally, I hate copies of blueprints except for very specific use cases that are currently handled just fine with the copy button. Having copies of blueprints makes it difficult to adjust the blueprints title, description, or icons, and I find myself constantly checking if the bp is an original or a copy. Currently, blueprints act exactly like every other item in the game-you can move them between containers (inventory, chests, and the library), create hotbar shortcuts in , and there is only one in existence unless explicitly copied. This is intuitive and follows all behavior from other items.
But why would you ever put the real thing in your inventory.
I think I heard all inventories share the same mechanics, so the ability to place a BP in a chest is the same thing as the ability to place it into the players inventory. Disallowing one would disallow the other. The only case I've seen this put to good use (and I can imagine good uses sof) is in modding realm.

Recursive blueprints explicitely works by storing a blueprint in a chest if I'm correct.
I could also imagine a mod where you drop a blueprint in a requester-like chest, and the chest orders exactly the blueprint contents from the logistic network.
[Edit] I've given a look, and also found :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/blueprint ... est_revamp
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/blueprint_request_chest (It's hard to be creative in this world I guess, there's always someone who's already had your idea somewhere ^^)
[/Edit]

I know the desire to preserve modding capabilities should never be an obstacle to make the base game better by itself, but I don't want my not using mods make me seem not caring about modding, which is an essential part of Factorio, so I'm trying to show what tradeoffs we'd have to make in the current situation.
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

Koub wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:23 am
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:55 am
Abcdefgdude wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:45 am
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 pm
Koub wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:30 pm


My shamelessly self-advertised quote here would be consistant with what you say.

It should definitely get copied.
Personally, I hate copies of blueprints except for very specific use cases that are currently handled just fine with the copy button. Having copies of blueprints makes it difficult to adjust the blueprints title, description, or icons, and I find myself constantly checking if the bp is an original or a copy. Currently, blueprints act exactly like every other item in the game-you can move them between containers (inventory, chests, and the library), create hotbar shortcuts in , and there is only one in existence unless explicitly copied. This is intuitive and follows all behavior from other items.
But why would you ever put the real thing in your inventory.
I think I heard all inventories share the same mechanics, so the ability to place a BP in a chest is the same thing as the ability to place it into the players inventory. Disallowing one would disallow the other. The only case I've seen this put to good use (and I can imagine good uses sof) is in modding realm.

Recursive blueprints explicitely works by storing a blueprint in a chest if I'm correct.
I could also imagine a mod where you drop a blueprint in a requester-like chest, and the chest orders exactly the blueprint contents from the logistic network.
[Edit] I've given a look, and also found :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/blueprint ... est_revamp
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/blueprint_request_chest (It's hard to be creative in this world I guess, there's always someone who's already had your idea somewhere ^^)
[/Edit]

I know the desire to preserve modding capabilities should never be an obstacle to make the base game better by itself, but I don't want my not using mods make me seem not caring about modding, which is an essential part of Factorio, so I'm trying to show what tradeoffs we'd have to make in the current situation.
I’d never put a blueprint I care about somewhere other than my blueprint library (which I often back up manually) because it might be destroyed somehow.
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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by Raiguard »

Let me share my perspective:

The new library was immediately intuitive for me. The old one was confusing and needlessly complicated. The new one, though, behaves exactly like another inventory from the player's perspective. It's no different than moving a blueprint into a chest. Once you realize it's just another inventory everything gets a whole lot easier and all of the interactions make immediate sense.

I'm not sure how it's confusing when it's consistent with literally every other interaction in the game now. When you move a blueprint into the library from your inventory, it moves just like it would if you put it into a chest. Creating a copy would be inconsistent with how inventories work and would be (was) a lot more confusing and convoluted.

The only behavior that differs it from other inventories is that hotbar links are preserved. That's the only "extra" thing you need to remember when interacting with the library.

I do agree that an option to auto-sort is sorely needed. However, everything else is, in my opinion, user error that was spawned from years of interacting with the old library and the assumptions that come along with it.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by ManaUser »

pf_moore wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:30 pm
Most of the new functionality seems OK to me (although I've not been a heavy blueprint user up to now). But the one thing that I'm not happy with is how easy it is to accidentally delete a book from the library. I lost a book that way (luckily, I think it was one I'd imported rather than one I'd built from scratch).

I consider the library as a "safe place" to keep my blueprints, as opposed to my character inventory and hotbar, which are transient. If it's this easy to lose stuff from the library, that defeats a lot of the benefits for me, and I feel that things have gone back to where they used to be, with maintaining an external directory of exported books being the only really safe approach...
This is the big thing. The blueprint library should be safe, now it's not.

There are multiple ways to accidentally remove or delete something from the library. Mistakenly using the delete button in an attempt to remove a shortcut is the most obvious, but here's sneakier one:

Say you have a library-linked blueprint on your hotbar. You place it, then you grab a stack of electric poles from your inventory to connect what you just build... oops, unless you remembered to press Q between step 1 and step 2 you just removed the blueprint from your library and put it in your inventory, likely without even noticing.

So basically, if I want to use my BP library as safe storage, using direct hotbar links to it is no longer an option. I have to copy them to my inventory, or I guess as a compromise, I could copy them to "game blueprints". That would save the space in my inventory, but it still feels like an awkward workaround.


Here's an idea that would satisfy me without disappointing the "it works like an item, duh" people: Put a lock toggle on the library menu. When enabled, blueprints cannot be removed or deleted from it. Attempting to move one would create a copy instead, and the trash button would simply be disabled for library blueprints. If you want to live dangerously, cool, just leave it unlocked; but me, I would really appreciate the accident prevention.

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by retlom »

It is even a bigger Problem in Multiplayer Public (Game) BP's are gone all the fricking time i Copied all of them for safety reasons into my Personal BP book because on the Comunity server we loose some Constantly now and as far as i know we dont have the possibility to restrict the removeal to Admins only

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by hedikin »

Would it be possible to get the good old - Shift click to "wipe" a blueprint back? i utterly dislike(read hate) the copy "function" that has "replaced" it. i used to use 2 blueprints for my copy pasting where i could just edit and then place it down.

Before i select a empty blueprint, mark what i want, edit it (remove a thing or 2), and then i mostly press Q, because something else needs attention.

Which will result in DELETING my dear blueprint and having to start over.

Now i have to select copy, press shift because i want a blueprint, edit it (remove a thing or 2), MOVE it to my hotbar to "save it".

This feels so annoyingly wrong that having played over 7000 hours of factorio, makes me wanna say "well it was a good run while it lasted".

while im at it, why must i press Enter TWICE now to set a logistic setting?
ie. i want 300 items, Enter, sigh, YES 300 items! Enter. this isnt a step in the right direction guys, come on geez

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by jape3 »

hedikin wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:33 pm
while im at it, why must i press Enter TWICE now to set a logistic setting?
ie. i want 300 items, Enter, sigh, YES 300 items! Enter. this isnt a step in the right direction guys, come on geez
This is probably my biggest gripe with the current system! Old system had it downfalls too but the new system IMO is worse.

The blueprint edit function also seems a bit odd. Tried painting in new contents for the BP, realized I made a mistake, so cancel with an ESC press.. WTF blueprint was updated with an escape button press? Surely this is not the intended behauvior..

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Re: Blueprint Library Feedback

Post by ssilk »

hedikin wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:33 pm
while im at it, why must i press Enter TWICE now to set a logistic setting?
ie. i want 300 items, Enter, sigh, YES 300 items! Enter. this isnt a step in the right direction guys, come on geez
That’s off-topic. :) See here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=87727 Player Request Confirmation Not Needed
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