Friday Facts #336 - Offshore pump redesign

[valneq]

On the topic of offshore pumps, can something be done about this bug report related to putting pumps on the edge of deep/shallow water?

The issue you mention was that the old pump was built on water checking for land collision rules – which happens to apply for the deep to shallow water transition. The new pump is built on land and checks for water. So I expect the mentioned issue will be fixed. However, it is not clear whether the new pump accepts both deep and shallow water next to it – so this might introduce a new issue

[bman212121]

Definitely going to check out your non beacon mod. It more or less sounds like you added some new tiers with higher production to them, but that's fine by me. I generally don't use beacons because I strongly dislike how they sterilize creativity. Not just that the designs are highly restricted, it's also that once the "optimal" design is found, some people just stick to that and it now becomes the "I must use this because UPS" reasons. I'd rather not play the game if I was forced to build things how the beacon-ed picture looks. Thankfully though Factorio lets you do what you want, and if you don't like something you can just mod it to something better.

If I were doing this mod I'd probably consider making the entities a tile larger (3 x 3 to 4 x 4) to go with their increased production. That would probably help balance out any space concerns and would really throw a wrench into how to expand, but wouldn't force one play style the way the beacon radius does. Obviously I can see that would drive you mad because you're using multiple mods to streamline upgrades (Making early furnaces larger on purpose) but that's the beauty of mods. You can build out your vision of how to play the game, and someone else can make their vision. It makes the game far more fun to be able to try out the many different takes on how the game could be designed.

[netmand]

The new Offshore pump looks great. Much better than that old turbocharger look.

[Diablo]

I would be very , very, very, VERY interested in that time lapse mod please.
Did I say very yet. just in case... VERY.

I have a lot of save games and the previous time lapse mod does not work anymore and an automated one would make my life.....unimaginably more easy.

Hope you get to finish and release it.

Thank you.

[V453000]

I would be very , very, very, VERY interested in that time lapse mod please.
Did I say very yet. just in case... VERY.

I have a lot of save games and the previous time lapse mod does not work anymore and an automated one would make my life.....unimaginably more easy.

Hope you get to finish and release it.

Thank you.

It already works for my specific use case, which was taking screenshots from a folder full of savegames, but you need some lua and python knowledge to get it to function. I just need to majorly clean it up to make it more user friendly.

[raiguard]

The pump looks great! However, I agree with everyone else here - the entity itself feel like a cheat. It doesn't require power and has an insane amount of throughput.

I think that there should be some kind of basic, burner-powered pump that you start off with, then you unlock the actual offshore pump with fluid handling. It should require electricity to function.

I know that the idea is not to make any more major changes before 1.0, but this feels necessary to me.

Good work, as always!

[Yijare]

While I can understand the motivation to redesign it - was it a necessity? I doubt it.

[ptx0]

I would be very , very, very, VERY interested in that time lapse mod please.
Did I say very yet. just in case... VERY.

I have a lot of save games and the previous time lapse mod does not work anymore and an automated one would make my life.....unimaginably more easy.

Hope you get to finish and release it.

Thank you.

the credo multiplayer timelapse mod works fine, as long as you don't set it to zoom out too far.

his method likely requires the replay.dat file.

[ptx0]

The pump looks great! However, I agree with everyone else here - the entity itself feel like a cheat. It doesn't require power and has an insane amount of throughput.

I think that there should be some kind of basic, burner-powered pump that you start off with, then you unlock the actual offshore pump with fluid handling. It should require electricity to function.

I know that the idea is not to make any more major changes before 1.0, but this feels necessary to me.

Good work, as always!

i dunno, it's not a huge part of gameplay, and they have been on the path of simplifying things rather than adding complexity for new players. such as, the temperature handling of fluids being changed.

[PaszaVonPomiot]

Hi,
I love new pumps - this is great upgrade from previous version. I like that it also takes more space because previously you could spam pumps on small lake and have as much water as you need.
Regarding beacons I never use them because they make no sense to me by magically increasing productivity of nearby structures. They are just space fillers that get in the way of creating interesting factory designs. They are the only game design choice in Factorio that I consider bad. Luckily they are optional.

And one quote from FFF got me wondering ...

the only entity placed on a water tile at the moment.

[MakeItGraphic]

The pump looks great! However, I agree with everyone else here - the entity itself feel like a cheat. It doesn't require power and has an insane amount of throughput.

I think that there should be some kind of basic, burner-powered pump that you start off with, then you unlock the actual offshore pump with fluid handling. It should require electricity to function.

I know that the idea is not to make any more major changes before 1.0, but this feels necessary to me.

Good work, as always!

I'll be that person. I agree with what is said here, a 'Burner Pump' would be a necessity in order to move forward with an un-cheaty feeling 'Pump'. But could spiral into more issues. Right now the burner stage in Factorio is near non-existent in the base mod. I like 'bobs' idea with 'Basic Belts (logistics)', 'Burner Assembly Machine' and then moving into steam from the 'Pump'/'Boiler' setup 'Steam Miners', 'Steam Assembly Machine'. But I don't feel confident these would ever make it into the base again. Even though they make the most sense to me. I simply don't understand the burner stage in base mod, there's really no point to it beyond the tedium of hey let's build a 'Pump', 'Boiler', and 'Steam Engine' then build a 'Lab' to unlock research, and never use burner stuff again.

I would all most say why not just get rid of the burner stage all together in base, and just give you what you need for powered start, enough to run an 'Electric miner', a 'Lab', 'Assembly Machine 1' (225kW), and a few 'inserter'. The 'steam engine' outputs 900kW but let's say it is the engine from your ship you salvaged and it was heavily damaged so it can only output 300kW, you were lucky your 'Boiler' survived, and the 'Pump' repurposed from you water treatment system. Just go cut down some trees, have some 'Copper Cable' at start too and make some 'Small Electric Poles', and bing bang boom bobs your uncle start the game without having to waste your time just trying to start playing.

Now that's not why I said I'll be that person lol. It would be neat to see water taken into a new direction. I have been on the finite water team since forever. But thinking it could be done more gracefully.

Add additional sources of water in the game instead of three(?) now.

- Shallow Freshwater: stays the same but only generates as lakes, rivers, small bodies of water (is finite)
- Deep Freshwater: see above, acts the same as other resources, further out the more there is
- Shallow Saltwater: unpumpable have to research late game technology desalinization
- Deep Saltwater : is more abundant, and higher yields (resource wise, not output)

Note: as water beds dry up it causes desertification in the surrounding area, essentially effecting the water table (decreasing the moisture levels)

*the below is subjective, and not necessity. I think it would be a good thing for a few reasons though, that said it would probably work best in conjunction with other mods that could utilize the extra yields as base is pretty balanced as it.

a. when not playing with biters gives you an alternate challenge with pollution
b. forces the use of the barrel system
c. gives an alternate method for Sulphuric Acid production.

- Shallow Greenwater: is toxic, this develops from pollution, if you step in it you get hurt, if machines fall into it they get damaged, and destroyed
- Deep Greenwater: can be filtered with a special kind of pump, assembly machine, and barrels. Toxic by-products can be barrelled and turned into sulphur, while filtered water can be barrelled and sent off to where you need it.

Other ideas for modding:

- Deep Saltwater: beds could leave salt deposits for mining, have to create dykes to isolate parts of saltwater body so you can drain them and gain access to the resource.

[nepp95]

I would be very , very, very, VERY interested in that time lapse mod please.
Did I say very yet. just in case... VERY.

I have a lot of save games and the previous time lapse mod does not work anymore and an automated one would make my life.....unimaginably more easy.

Hope you get to finish and release it.

Thank you.

It already works for my specific use case, which was taking screenshots from a folder full of savegames, but you need some lua and python knowledge to get it to function. I just need to majorly clean it up to make it more user friendly.

Am I correct in saying that you’re using the replay files for this? I’ve taken a quick look at the code, looks good and I’m very curious as to the result. Might even try it tomorrow
Still trying to find a solution for the “only daytime”-timelapse from a replay file. Since setting the time causes a desync which crashes the replay.

[Philip017]

the look of the new pump is fine, imo the old pump was fine till the terrain changes then it looked like it was pumping off land if you looked at it with minimal water tiles, and once landfilled over they really looked weird.

as for making them use power, or burn coal, i think the same reason they haven't made belts use power or have a coal burner motor is because of the complexity. it would be interesting if these functions went to mods but imo these are not for vanilla changes.

[BattleFluffy]

The new pump design looks great :>

The pipe with water rushing past the little window looks very fast by comparison though. It looks like there's no way that slow pump could produce such a torrent of water. Maybe the "water-window" on the pipe should move slower, or the pump should move faster?


Regarding beacons sterilizing designs... I agree to an extent, but it's still a challenge to design an in-ratio beaconed machine that does several steps in one tileable block. Also, the "grid" pattern for beacons isn't the only pattern available. Take a look at this 10-beacon "direct-loading from train" labs design:

[MakeItGraphic]

The new pump design looks great :>

The pipe with water rushing past the little window looks very fast by comparison though. It looks like there's no way that slow pump could produce such a torrent of water. Maybe the "water-window" on the pipe should move slower, or the pump should move faster?


Regarding beacons sterilizing designs... I agree to an extent, but it's still a challenge to design an in-ratio beaconed machine that does several steps in one tileable block. Also, the "grid" pattern for beacons isn't the only pattern available. Take a look at this 10-beacon "direct-loading from train" labs design:

dayumm nice labs. All so feel like an idiot now, I couldn't figure out how to make stops on diagonals grrr. Now I know thanks!

[Johansho]

Nice design, hoped for burner offshore pump tho.

[Pi-C]

Nice design, hoped for burner offshore pump tho.

There usually are mods for everything. With some luck, you can find one for this, too. ;.)

[<NO_NAME>]

Nice design, hoped for burner offshore pump tho.

There usually are mods for everything. With some luck, you can find one for this, too. ;.)

Still, having a mod is not an excuse to have gaps in the base game.

You could say this not a big deal because you don't have that many offshore pumps anyway. This is inconsistency, though.
I have this mental model that I have to connect everything into electricity/burner to work. So I go to create new outpost and I'm laying out all the devices. Everything is still, waiting for a power line, and then suddenly whoosh, water is flowing, all of the calm of a sleeping factory is destroyed. Not a big thing, again, but it's like a small single nail scratching a blackboard at the back of my head. Like a big complicated mechanism, where one single small gear rotates in opposite direction.
Sorry, I feel poetic today.

Anyway, I like how the new pump looks. It's somehow more touch/reliable looking than the old one. If only it didn't deepen the problem I've written about.

[leadraven]

"Burber pump" is a very dumb and lazy solution.
First thing that comes in mind :
1. Replace Offshore Pump with Power Mill (Offshore Generator) as initial power source.
2. Let regular Pump to do the job of Offshore Pump.
3. Move Stem Power a little down in the tech tree, after Fluid Handling.

[5thHorseman]

Having a mod is not an excuse to have gaps in the base game.

But we don't get to decide what's a gap in the base game. We can argue our point but in the end the developers decide.

And if you don't agree with them, then you mod in what you want that they don't.