Development and Discussion

[lovely_santa]

I just want to let you guys know, I'm not sure who reported it (a while back), I can't seem to find the message, but someone was pointing out that in the 0.18 release, spitters where destroying bases (the small spitter is doing 600/s damage). This is fixed for the next release now.

Wait … so for a while the only way to get Thorium in AngelBob will be to crystallize?

I know that MadClown's adds more Thorium recipies. While I do like that, I am still not sure whether I like most of MadClown's other changes to AngelBob.

You first need to get nuclear going anyway for it to be usefull in bobs, as it's only use is for nuclear power. There are two ways of getting thorium: Crystalisation to uranium, fluorite and thorium as you said, and the other way is sorting (2 ferrous crystal + 2 cupric crystal + hybrid crystal -> 3 thorium ore). I think you'll have it researched by the time you'll need a decent nuclear setup?

[valneq]

Wait … so for a while the only way to get Thorium in AngelBob will be to crystallize?

I know that MadClown's adds more Thorium recipies. While I do like that, I am still not sure whether I like most of MadClown's other changes to AngelBob.

You first need to get nuclear going anyway for it to be usefull in bobs, as it's only use is for nuclear power. There are two ways of getting thorium: Crystalisation to uranium, fluorite and thorium as you said, and the other way is sorting (2 ferrous crystal + 2 cupric crystal + hybrid crystal -> 3 thorium ore). I think you'll have it researched by the time you'll need a decent nuclear setup?

First of all, you most likely meant (cannot check in game right now):
2 ferrous crystal + 2 cupric crystal + hybrid catalyst -> 3 thorium ore

This pure sorting recipe was not present in 0.17 – at least I don't remember it. Got me confused that you said you want to revert sorting recipes back to what they were in 0.17 – and you mentioned only the mixed sorting recipes. Not the pure sorting recipes.

I remember specifically that MadClown's had Thorium as a sorting result of some of the additional ores, which is what I was referring to. Maybe there was even a pure sorting recipe involving the additional ores.

But I agree: If there is a pure sorting recipe, things are fine

[lovely_santa]

...

Orzelek while you're here! Could there be a setting to also generate starting patches of juvolite and crotinium (yellow/white)? It's something I specifically would like when playing RSO because I go for very sparse ore generation (increased region size, decreased chance) but with higher infinity portions and higher ore richness. I can often drive 2 minutes in each direction without hitting those two kinds of ore. I like the idea of outposts being far and rare. But I'd like the option to have all types before undertaking major exploration.

They shouldn't be needed early game (similar to uranium). It could indeed be an idea to add a setting to allow them into the starting area (RSO?).

We'd need to figure out where to put the setting. It can be a setting that is in Angel's ores and works both in it and in RSO or only in RSO. Not sure if I'd like to have special setting for one mod only in RSO but it's doable.
I'm not sure if angel's ores generates those two ins tarting area now? Maybe it's just a question of ore configs going out of date in RSO.

Angel can easily integrate those settings (for all ores even). It's just changing 1 single line to be a value from a setting rather than just hardcoded. So I'll put it on the todo list. Once released, we can see if it needs tweaking somewhere.

I've implemented this for the next release of refining.

First of all, you most likely meant (cannot check in game right now):
2 ferrous crystal + 2 cupric crystal + hybrid catalyst -> 3 thorium ore

This pure sorting recipe was not present in 0.17 – at least I don't remember it. Got me confused that you said you want to revert sorting recipes back to what they were in 0.17 – and you mentioned only the mixed sorting recipes. Not the pure sorting recipes.

I remember specifically that MadClown's had Thorium as a sorting result of some of the additional ores, which is what I was referring to. Maybe there was even a pure sorting recipe involving the additional ores.

But I agree: If there is a pure sorting recipe, things are fine

Yes, I ment catalyst indeed (my bad). And yes, one of the things added in 0.18 was support for thorium, as bob introduced thorium, it would be logical for angel to support this as well. And by reverting I meant the the mixed sorting recipes (1 base ore in -> multiple refined ores out). Of course I'll make an exception for the thorium that was introduced in angels 0.18 release. I I think I also slightly tweaked some of the combinations of the slag processing recipes (50 mineralised sludge -> 2 refined ores).

I also think a change is the platinum ore? It's an ore originally included exclusively for angels components in angels industries at this point. But to make it uniform, it is also one of the products included of cupric ore sorting. Of course there is also a pure sorting recipe for platinum. The introduction into any angel game versus bob+angels was done to make the code base more uniform (and the code base less complex). Platinum ore is used in petrochem as well, while the plate/wire recipe is not.

In the upcomming release, all the unused recipes (depending on what combination of mods you're running) will be hidden. This means for example that if you play pure angels mods, you'll be able to make nickel ingots, but since the nickel plate is never used, those recipes are hidden. You'll still need nickel ingots to increase production of other (molten) resources, as before.

I need expert advice how to proceed in my A&B run. I do super-marathon run, expensive recipe and 10.000 science multiplier. While is may look impossible, actually is super fun, I already progressed close to Chemical Science pack.

The problem I see in 0.18 is bio-processing and Alien Life Sample. In 0.17 I just ignored Bio Processing at all, except wood production (which is essential, as Greenhouses as so slow and kills power/UPS). But now I understand that I can't progress to modules without bio-processing (splinters!). Finding thousands of Alien Samples is not a option, but to produce them I need research that requires Alien Samples. So I have modules essentially deadlocked, but modules are essential to progress further or I will kill by UPS.

Any advice how to fix it? I can program small changes to recipes using my own mod, so I do not request changes in base Angels. May be other players using high science multiples may appreciate this, I saw some people playing with up to 100-1000 multiplier.

Probably the simplest way is to cheat in enough Alien Samples to reseach tech that enables their production. But may there is better way?

I could scale the yield of the alien plant life samples that you get from the gardens.. How many do you need? I guess you could prioritize your research to only research 1 specific farming (32 samples) and it's upgrade (64 samples) for a total of 96 (let's say 100 for the sake of calculations) samples. So you effectively need 1.000.000 samples to get to garden farming. I think there is no justification in scaling the amount of samples you get from gardens so you can get that many samples (think about the output capacity of your assembler)... It would also be difficult to scale the output amount since the science multiplier is a map setting, while the recipes are startup settings...

Another solution would be to create an earlier version of the garden duplicating, so you got access to an infinite amount of tokens... But I don't really know a good way of introducing this without breaking the existing recipes to duplicate gardens...

Any ideas on some better way of implementing this?

[Molay]

Thanks for adding in starting jivolite/crtinnum option!

As to the admittedly terrible ultra high tech multiplier/token dilemma, could it be envisioned to add a red-green-blue-yellow tech, which would also make use of uranium (much like the mutation option) to add a "study wild garden growth" or whatever name recipe? Input garden, uranium, and fertilizer and soil (or sand or whatnot depending on garden type), output the input garden and 0 to 1 tokens (5%? 20% I don't know). Perhaps even output the input garden and 0-1 extra gardens of that type. The recipe should run a long time I figure.

You'd basically create a very high tech way to generate tokens. It should be less efficient than regular garden duping to turn into tokens. It's only purpose would be an entry point into gardening with a non-token tech. It would prevent making gardening impossible no matter the cost multiplier, be reliable and not require excessive exploration. It would still be slow and late game. But you could scale it up to your needs. It would eventually lead to regular garden duping and from there you're good.

Particularly important if you consider seablock with science cost multiplier. Gardens are fairly rare there. Some alternative should be available.

This tech could be a prerequisite to the mutations tech. Mutation tech cost could be adjusted in exchange. That way the tech links into the gardening section and isn't a weird dead-end tech, which might feel out of place.

[StormTAG]

It is the only way to create mud, yes. On the other hand, when diving deep into petrochem, you'll need a lot of saline water, which can create all the mud you need (instead of using the salination plant recipe).

Fair enough. I may still throw in the recipe for myself since I'm currently just clarify-ing that saline water. I figure since I need all the mud in early game before I get petrochem going, it could be a simpler way to get started with. I understand why adding it to the main line might be overkill.

The only use for clay is clay brick, which you can also use as a walkway (like stone and concrete). In the development of angels industries, the componets use a lot of those bricks as well, which will result in a higher use of your clay. Either way, it's not like you're getting loads of clay as some byproduct, you can just produce what you need, even if this doesn't require a lot of washing setups.

Personally I'm not a super big fan of the look of the clay bricks as a walk way, when compared to some of the other options, so I usually only end up making enough for buildings. Still, I may again add such stuff for my own play-throughs and why adding it to the main line releases would be overkill.

I don't want to introduce yet another spawnable item that you have to look for... What might be an idea, is that when you mine a garden, that you get a chance of obtaining some seeds already, like as it was already part of garden...

Hrrmmm... That could work but it'd probably not really be necessary, save for reducing the randomness associated with which seeds you get from the garden extractor. I really do like the idea of having existing fields of crops waving in the wind, waiting for you to find though. Sounds like a lot of work though, since I have no idea how difficult it would be to spawn a new region, make them mineable, etc.

Thanks for your feedback and consideration! Excitedly looking forward to the next release!

[lovely_santa]

As to the admittedly terrible ultra high tech multiplier/token dilemma, could it be envisioned to add a red-green-blue-yellow tech, which would also make use of uranium (much like the mutation option) to add a "study wild garden growth" or whatever name recipe? Input garden, uranium, and fertilizer and soil (or sand or whatnot depending on garden type), output the input garden and 0 to 1 tokens (5%? 20% I don't know). Perhaps even output the input garden and 0-1 extra gardens of that type. The recipe should run a long time I figure.

You'd basically create a very high tech way to generate tokens. It should be less efficient than regular garden duping to turn into tokens. It's only purpose would be an entry point into gardening with a non-token tech. It would prevent making gardening impossible no matter the cost multiplier, be reliable and not require excessive exploration. It would still be slow and late game. But you could scale it up to your needs. It would eventually lead to regular garden duping and from there you're good.

Particularly important if you consider seablock with science cost multiplier. Gardens are fairly rare there. Some alternative should be available.

This tech could be a prerequisite to the mutations tech. Mutation tech cost could be adjusted in exchange. That way the tech links into the gardening section and isn't a weird dead-end tech, which might feel out of place.

For seablock we've added the mutations, and you don't need modules earlier than purple science anyway... So for that it is fine. For expensive (marathon) mode, I've added altered the early recipe that you unlock with just red science, as shown below (on the left). Instead of giving 32 tokens, it now has a small chance (that scales down with marathon intermediate multiplier) to obtain 1 token, but that you can run the recipe over and over. And it doesn't feel like it is competing with the garden duplication recipe that you unlock later on (see recipe on the right). The combination of both can act as a decent sized alien plant life sample generator that you can scale up. If you don't know what to do with the gardens, you can still convert them to seeds as before.

Capture1.PNG (442.15 KiB) Viewed 6019 times

I don't want to introduce yet another spawnable item that you have to look for... What might be an idea, is that when you mine a garden, that you get a chance of obtaining some seeds already, like as it was already part of garden...

Hrrmmm... That could work but it'd probably not really be necessary, save for reducing the randomness associated with which seeds you get from the garden extractor. I really do like the idea of having existing fields of crops waving in the wind, waiting for you to find though. Sounds like a lot of work though, since I have no idea how difficult it would be to spawn a new region, make them mineable, etc.

I've added some crops as a result to the gardens when you mine them as shown in the picture. They show like they give small amounts at once, but it is similar to the seed extractor recipe where they have a chance to give 5 at once. This way, when you obtain a tier 1 or 2 crop twice, you'll effectively have 10 crops and you can start creating seeds out of them (as the recipe requires 10 crops to make seeds). The tier 3..5 crops cannot be converted to seeds, as you need dorment seeds for those, but you can process them already, so you'll still need to use the seed extractor on your gardens to get all the crops going.

Capture.PNG (142.13 KiB) Viewed 6019 times

[StormTAG]

I've added some crops as a result to the gardens when you mine them as shown in the picture. They show like they give small amounts at once, but it is similar to the seed extractor recipe where they have a chance to give 5 at once. This way, when you obtain a tier 1 or 2 crop twice, you'll effectively have 10 crops and you can start creating seeds out of them (as the recipe requires 10 crops to make seeds). The tier 3..5 crops cannot be converted to seeds, as you need dorment seeds for those, but you can process them already, so you'll still need to use the seed extractor on your gardens to get all the crops going.

Makes sense to me! I'ma havta clone this into my mods directory so I can play with the bleeding edge version!

[Molay]

It's an elegant solution, but if I understand it only applies in marathon mode (crafting recipe multiplier)? What if someone doesn't use marathon expensive recipes, but still a say 1000x science cost multiplier? That's a situation where the new solution is required.

[lovely_santa]

Release 0.18.2 is out!
You can find the changelog ingame for each mod or find them all together here on github. As mentioned multiple times before:
This update contains a rework of the ore sorting, which means that those recipes changed
A (partial) rebuild of that section of your base might be required. The recipes are now the same as they where in 0.17. The previous update(s) introduced some new (unintended) changes to refining, which did seem harmless at first, but they do make your game a lot more difficult. You do not have to update if you don't want to (yet).

I've added some crops as a result to the gardens when you mine them as shown in the picture. They show like they give small amounts at once, but it is similar to the seed extractor recipe where they have a chance to give 5 at once. This way, when you obtain a tier 1 or 2 crop twice, you'll effectively have 10 crops and you can start creating seeds out of them (as the recipe requires 10 crops to make seeds). The tier 3..5 crops cannot be converted to seeds, as you need dorment seeds for those, but you can process them already, so you'll still need to use the seed extractor on your gardens to get all the crops going.

Makes sense to me! I'ma havta clone this into my mods directory so I can play with the bleeding edge version!

You're in luck It just released.

It's an elegant solution, but if I understand it only applies in marathon mode (crafting recipe multiplier)? What if someone doesn't use marathon expensive recipes, but still a say 1000x science cost multiplier? That's a situation where the new solution is required.

That is not really marathon mode then anyway. I do not see a reason why you would do that anyway. You have infinite research as a sink, there is no need to just increase the science cost multiplier... If you really want to make it difficult for yourself, then just play both
There is only normal and expensive mode for recipes, there is no way I can accommodate for the tech multiplier on it's own, other than kind of 'nerfing' the concept of exploring the map for gardens, and just produce more tokens which I do not intend to do.
If there was a way to know the tech multiplier beforehand, I could always accommodate for this. I might make it a setting in the next release, so you can tweak the amount yourself (instead of the default 32)?

[Molay]

That is not really marathon mode then anyway. I do not see a reason why you would do that anyway. You have infinite research as a sink, there is no need to just increase the science cost multiplier... If you really want to make it difficult for yourself, then just play both

I strongly disagree on this. Marathon is a drastic departure from the standard experience. Only using science cost multiplier improves pacing in my opinion. Techs just fly by without a multiplier, an experience I don't like. I run at least 5x in my AB games. In the current one I'm running 10x. It really helps with the pacing and makes progress more meaningful. It's not so much about making it difficult, but about making early techs relevant longer. I figured lots of people play this way? Maybe I'm mistaken.

On a measly 10x multiplier it doesn't really matter for the tokens. I just have to farm some more gardens. That's fine. But if it was 100x, 1000x... that would just be very frustrating.

Such a setting as you propose would be a good stopgap measure to prevent people from realizing late that gardening is impossible for them due to their settings. Ideally, you could make a feature request to the factorio team to expose science cost multiplier in the mod api. They do implement features on modder requests sometimes. I know earendel had some feature request related to his space belts implemented for instance.

Ideally if such a feature request was accepted you could single out the garden duping techs and adjust their token requirements automatically? Something like that.

Though a mere setting would of course work too.

[lovely_santa]

That is not really marathon mode then anyway. I do not see a reason why you would do that anyway. You have infinite research as a sink, there is no need to just increase the science cost multiplier... If you really want to make it difficult for yourself, then just play both

...

Such a setting as you propose would be a good stopgap measure to prevent people from realizing late that gardening is impossible for them due to their settings. Ideally, you could make a feature request to the factorio team to expose science cost multiplier in the mod api. They do implement features on modder requests sometimes. I know earendel had some feature request related to his space belts for instance.

Ideally if such a feature request was accepted you could single out the garden duping techs and adjust their token requirements automatically? Something like that.

Though a mere setting would of course work too.

I did consider this already and I did not make a request as the recipes are data stage (start-up settings) while the difficulty settings are map settings, hence there is no way to those will be compatible...

[Molay]

Ah snap, didn't think of that!

Though if a significant science cost multiplier was detected, could you not disable the standard token extraction tech and replace it with the marathon one? That would be simple enough, right? You can enable/disable existing techs after the data stage right? Perhaps a mere toggle between standard/marathon version of the tech in mod settings would be quite enough, without a feature request. Leaving it up to the player which option he prefers.

Edit: actually not a toggle to replace techs. Just make the token-less entry tech unlock both recipes, but enable/disable which recipe is active based on mod settings toggle.

[danyax]

Cupric ore sorting gives copper + silicon ore. My memories tells me it was copper + tin. In this intended?

github has correct description:

4 crushed cupric => 2 copper, 2 tin
6 cupric powder => 3 copper, 2 tin, 1 silicon
8 cupric dust => 4 copper, 2 tin, 1 silicon, 1 silver
9 cupric crystal => 4 copper, 2 tin, 1 silicon, 1 silver, 1 gold

And what is intended use of silver? It is produced by many sorting recipes but has very little use. Would it be possible to add some "sink" recipes?

[lovely_santa]

Cupric ore sorting gives copper + silicon ore. My memories tells me it was copper + tin. In this intended?

And what is intended use of silver? It is produced by many sorting recipes but has very little use. Would it be possible to add some "sink" recipes?

Yes the cupric did change a bit, this is to compensate the use when playing with components. I plan on having components fully working in the next release, and this will also use the silver for the angel boards and components. I don't think the silicon will be an issue as you'll use plenty to make wafers (also you get 6 wafers from 1 mono silicon instead of 8 now). It's a bit of a compensation so you'll generate a bit more silicon and a bit less copper early game. Once you got your green science, you'll go to dedicated sorting (stiratite + bobmonium -> tin ore) in order to decrease the amount of silicon, and the amount of copper production.

[danyax]

Cupric ore sorting gives copper + silicon ore. My memories tells me it was copper + tin. In this intended?

And what is intended use of silver? It is produced by many sorting recipes but has very little use. Would it be possible to add some "sink" recipes?

Yes the cupric did change a bit, this is to compensate the use when playing with components. I plan on having components fully working in the next release, and this will also use the silver for the angel boards and components. I don't think the silicon will be an issue as you'll use plenty to make wafers (also you get 6 wafers from 1 mono silicon instead of 8 now). It's a bit of a compensation so you'll generate a bit more silicon and a bit less copper early game. Once you got your green science, you'll go to dedicated sorting (stiratite + bobmonium -> tin ore) in order to decrease the amount of silicon, and the amount of copper production.

Thank for explanations. Still for play without components this change makes cupric sorting much less useful - you do not need that much silicon, while tin is heavily used.

Would you give silver some love in play without component?

[canisdirusleidy]

By the way. This (everything from "Angel's Components" and "Angels Technology" is available from the very beginning of the game) is bug, feature or just beta stage?

Screenshot_2020-02-23_06-35-27.png (570.49 KiB) Viewed 5927 times

[evandy]

By the way. This (everything from "Angel's Components" and "Angels Technology" is available from the very beginning of the game) is bug, feature or just beta stage?
Screenshot_2020-02-23_06-35-27.png

Wow. Angels Components /really/ makes me think Industrial Revolution. I don't have a problem with the concept, per se, but IR feels very "same"-y with the multiple levels of the different components. I haven't played with them (obviously) but I'd be in favor of more different components, and less every-component-made-with-every-possible-metal. I'd like to build lots of /different/ production chains, rather than blueprinting the same thing over and over with only a metal-type change.

[MakeItGraphic]

By the way. This (everything from "Angel's Components" and "Angels Technology" is available from the very beginning of the game) is bug, feature or just beta stage?
Screenshot_2020-02-23_06-35-27.png

Wow. Angels Components /really/ makes me think Industrial Revolution. I don't have a problem with the concept, per se, but IR feels very "same"-y with the multiple levels of the different components. I haven't played with them (obviously) but I'd be in favor of more different components, and less every-component-made-with-every-possible-metal. I'd like to build lots of /different/ production chains, rather than blueprinting the same thing over and over with only a metal-type change.

Deadlock IR Date: 06. 09. 2019 is newer than angels: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Industria ... /changelog

[lovely_santa]

Cupric ore sorting gives copper + silicon ore. My memories tells me it was copper + tin. In this intended?

And what is intended use of silver? It is produced by many sorting recipes but has very little use. Would it be possible to add some "sink" recipes?

Yes the cupric did change a bit, this is to compensate the use when playing with components. I plan on having components fully working in the next release, and this will also use the silver for the angel boards and components. I don't think the silicon will be an issue as you'll use plenty to make wafers (also you get 6 wafers from 1 mono silicon instead of 8 now). It's a bit of a compensation so you'll generate a bit more silicon and a bit less copper early game. Once you got your green science, you'll go to dedicated sorting (stiratite + bobmonium -> tin ore) in order to decrease the amount of silicon, and the amount of copper production.

Thank for explanations. Still for play without components this change makes cupric sorting much less useful - you do not need that much silicon, while tin is heavily used.

Would you give silver some love in play without component?

You still need cupric for platinum anyway. I could use silver in one of the metal catalysts? and then when playing with bob, introduce silver to some recipes yeah... Any specific ideas? I'll think about it.

By the way. This (everything from "Angel's Components" and "Angels Technology" is available from the very beginning of the game) is bug, feature or just beta stage?
Screenshot_2020-02-23_06-35-27.png

Just the beta stage. I plan on working on the components more in depth for the next release, including adding more intermediates, more in depth testing, and starting to include at least the early components into some tech.

It's pointless of adding the recipe unlocks to technologies when the recipes aren't finalized anyway.

By the way. This (everything from "Angel's Components" and "Angels Technology" is available from the very beginning of the game) is bug, feature or just beta stage?
Screenshot_2020-02-23_06-35-27.png

Wow. Angels Components /really/ makes me think Industrial Revolution. I don't have a problem with the concept, per se, but IR feels very "same"-y with the multiple levels of the different components. I haven't played with them (obviously) but I'd be in favor of more different components, and less every-component-made-with-every-possible-metal. I'd like to build lots of /different/ production chains, rather than blueprinting the same thing over and over with only a metal-type change.

I plan for sure to use different recipes for each component. Most recipes just have plates as placeholders, to indicate there difficulty and when they unlock, rather than having the full details figured out yet. Keep in mind that it's more of a sneak peak to what it will be, rather than a final product.

By the way. This (everything from "Angel's Components" and "Angels Technology" is available from the very beginning of the game) is bug, feature or just beta stage?
Screenshot_2020-02-23_06-35-27.png

Wow. Angels Components /really/ makes me think Industrial Revolution. I don't have a problem with the concept, per se, but IR feels very "same"-y with the multiple levels of the different components. I haven't played with them (obviously) but I'd be in favor of more different components, and less every-component-made-with-every-possible-metal. I'd like to build lots of /different/ production chains, rather than blueprinting the same thing over and over with only a metal-type change.

Deadlock IR Date: 06. 09. 2019 is newer than angels: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Industria ... /changelog

Yes, angels had components a lot longer in development than IR, but angels components focus on replacing building ingredients rather than a whole gameplay. the initial release where the components were present in the game was almost 2 years ago (in 0.16). They were in the code, but they were hidden.

[danyax]

Here are my thoughts on balancing B&A play (no industry or tech overhaul), expensive mode


Ferrous/Cupric chain

Overall idea is that these chains should provide good incentive to build vs other recipes. They are substantially harder to produce, especially on higher levels of processing. Current balance does not provide enough incentive (with exception or crushed ferrous sorting -> iron + manganese). My observation is that players typically do just basic crushed ferrous sorting for manganese but not higher steps and ignore Cupric chain completely - which is a pity as these chains are really well designed and interesting.

Regarding yields on marathon I propose following patterns

crushed 6 -> 2 + 2 (66% yield)
powder 6 -> 2 + 2 + 1 (83% yield)
dust 9 -> 4 + 2 + 2 + 1 (100% yield)
crystal 9 -> 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 (122% yield)

Now yields grow from 66% to 90%. Giving more yield at higher levels provides incentive and compensate for the need to build dumps for ore overflows. This will also boost usage of combined smelting recipes.

I think design objective is to make sure all metals produced can be used in science pack production. Otherwise one would inevitably has to stockpile ore that has no use in science packs.

Ferrous chain is well balanced regarding type or ores it gives

Cupric chain ores should be more aligned with ores used in science pack production. I would argue that usage of ore for buildings does not matter - science packs use order of magnitude more ore, especially on marathon/high tech multiplier.

6 Crushed Cupric Ore -> 2 copper ore + 2 tin ore

Rationale: tin is heavily used on chem science production for tinned wire and circuits. Silicon usage is way less. Yes, you can dump silicon into iron, but cupric ore looks more directed towards circuits. This was original recipe in 0.17

6 Cupric Powder -> 2 copper ore + 2 tin ore + 1 silicon

Rationale: this is still green science level, you get better yield overall and extra silicon for circuits needed for blue science packs

9 Cupric dust -> 4 copper + 2 tin + 2 silicon + 1 gold

Rationale: gold is better addition than silver as it is heavily used in circuits and modules. Silver is used just for catalysts (small usage) and can be dumped into solder on blue tech. My feeling in that gold usage is much higher

9 Cupric crystal -> 4 copper + 3 tin + 2 silicon + 1 gold + 1 silver

Rationale: platinum should be hard to make, and if you followed both cupric and ferrous chains you get it anyway with direct sorting. And platinum is not used in science pack production

Sorting recipes

Current recipes offer same yields 66% including slag. So most player go straight to direct sorting as soon as possible, using normal sorting to get rare ores a bit earlier in tech progression. I think normal sorting should provide incentive so people would use it for higher yields and then argumenting underproduced ores with direct sorting.

I propose to use following template for normal sorting

crushed 6 > 2 + 1 + 1 (66% yield)
chunks 9 > 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 (88% yield)
crystal 9 > 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (100% yield)
purified 9 > 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (100% yield, no slag)

I have not played normal mode for eternity, but if you find these ideas reasonable, I am sure they can be mirrored to normal mode.