[MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

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Mecejide
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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Mecejide » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:13 pm

The descriptions of the achievements based on circuit production use the vanilla names of the circuits.

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Deadlock989
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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:52 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:01 am
Therax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:24 am
Suggestion: make Utility Science Pack research depend on Automation 3. This isn't captured by the automatic generation, and I didn't notice that I needed Laser Assemblers for the Optical Controllers.
The first suggestion seems sensible, I'll look into it when I get some enthusiasm/time for modding back.
I looked into this briefly and it's not straightforward to fix. Utility Science depends on Electronics 3 because utility science packs contain blue circuits. But Automation 3 requires production science, so if Electronics 3 depended on Automation 3 (because you need a laser assembler to make blue circuits) then Electronics 3 would also require production science and then Utility Science would also require production science and then all the technologies that require utility science packs would also require production science packs. So that one small change has a massive effect on science progression - the earlier versions of IR had purple science entangled with yellow and I already did a big chunk of work on disentangling them so I'm reluctant to change that back. An alternative might be to relax the crafting machine tier for blue circuits but if I'm honest I don't like either of these solutions.

So I'm leaving it as it is for now, I will look at it again in future as I have some other changes to science progression in mind.
Mecejide wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:13 pm
The descriptions of the achievements based on circuit production use the vanilla names of the circuits.
I'll be honest, I have zero interest in achievements. I question whether they should be enabled at all in a modded game. Going over them all to make sure they make sense in an overhaul mod context would just be a slog. If someone else wants to do that work, I can incorporate it into IR as long as it's straightforward, or it could be a separate expansion mod if someone else cares enough.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Therax » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:47 pm

Therax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:24 am
Suggestion: make Utility Science Pack research depend on Automation 3. This isn't captured by the automatic generation, and I didn't notice that I needed Laser Assemblers for the Optical Controllers.
Never mind, I’m actually an idiot. Utility science needs Optical Processors, not Controllers, and those are craftable in the standard Electric Assembler.
Miniloader — UPS-friendly 1x1 loaders
Bulk Rail Loaders — Rapid train loading and unloading
Beltlayer & Pipelayer — Route items and fluids freely underground

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Deadlock989
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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:09 pm

Therax wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:47 pm
Therax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:24 am
Suggestion: make Utility Science Pack research depend on Automation 3. This isn't captured by the automatic generation, and I didn't notice that I needed Laser Assemblers for the Optical Controllers.
Never mind, I’m actually an idiot. Utility science needs Optical Processors, not Controllers, and those are craftable in the standard Electric Assembler.
Well, it's still true that the blue controllers are uncraftable if you research them before Automation 3. That's not really supposed to happen in the IR "everything unlockable is immediately craftable except barrels because barrels" philosophy.

It's not exactly game-breaking though.

I don't know why blue circuits are tier 2 crafting while controllers and computers are tier 3. There was probably a reason but eh.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by wildlifa » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:08 am

Acid copper washing feels like it should be 80% refined copper output rather than 40%. Compared to all other metals which return total of 80% (e.g. 40% + 40%) AND rare jewels, copper feels just pathetic. Is it intended?

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:16 am

wildlifa wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:08 am
Acid copper washing feels like it should be 80% refined copper output rather than 40%. Compared to all other metals which return total of 80% (e.g. 40% + 40%) AND rare jewels, copper feels just pathetic. Is it intended?
Yes, it is intended. Copper refining used to produce a small amount of gold as well as rubies. But then people complained about it, so I took it away. Now people are complaining that it doesn't produce enough stuff. Unfortunately I wasn't able to address the entire spectrum of "feelings" experienced by random people off the internet, and I expect that that situation is unlikely to change. There is nothing magic about 80%, gold and iron refining don't add up to that anyway, so it's not true that all metals return any kind of "total". Acid washing boosts byproduct drop chance by 2x and reduces main product chances to 40%, so copper ore acid washing is working as intended.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by wildlifa » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:21 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:16 am
wildlifa wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:08 am
Acid copper washing feels like it should be 80% refined copper output rather than 40%. Compared to all other metals which return total of 80% (e.g. 40% + 40%) AND rare jewels, copper feels just pathetic. Is it intended?

Yes, it is intended. Copper refining used to produce a small amount of gold as well as rubies. But then people complained about it, so I took it away. Now people are complaining that it doesn't produce enough stuff. Unfortunately I wasn't able to address the entire spectrum of "feelings" experienced by random people off the internet, and I expect that that situation is unlikely to change. There is nothing magic about 80%, gold and iron refining don't add up to that anyway, so it's not true that all metals return any kind of "total". Acid washing boosts byproduct drop chance by 2x and reduces main product chances to 40%, so copper ore acid washing is working as intended.
Sorry, I am new to the mod and didn't follow the history. I am just trying to give constructive feedback and understand the value of acid washing vs smelting crushed ore vs regular washing. Gold gives a large amount of rubies. This makes me think that copper acid washin is then more beneficial for the final amount of copper ingots you get, is that correct? Assuming that you can use production modules. Because otherwise the regular washing is better in terms of copper output? I didn't do the math yet, correct me if my thoughts are wrong.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:08 pm

wildlifa wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:21 pm
Sorry, I am new to the mod and didn't follow the history. I am just trying to give constructive feedback and understand the value of acid washing vs smelting crushed ore vs regular washing. Gold gives a large amount of rubies. This makes me think that copper acid washin is then more beneficial for the final amount of copper ingots you get, is that correct? Assuming that you can use production modules. Because otherwise the regular washing is better in terms of copper output? I didn't do the math yet, correct me if my thoughts are wrong.
No, regular washing is better if you want the main product - so if you want to maximise copper, use water washing and then crush the refined copper to powder. Acid washing is intended to boost byproducts at the expense of the main product. It is possible with the addition of acid washing to balance supply of the main product and byproducts to an extent by having sections of factory circuit controlled according to stores/demand (except for the remaining titanium/chrome problem, which I don't really have an answer for except by moving chromium to copper ore which would screw up a lot of saved games). Acid washing is not a direct replacement for regular washing, it is there in case your demand for byproducts is outstripping the demand for the main product.

None of this really applies to copper anyway since the only byproduct is now a small amount of rubies. Essentially the only reason copper acid washing now exists is because map gen RNG can occasionally be cruel and make gold difficult to come by, so it's an alternative route to rubies > lasers > laser assemblers.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by ewired » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:55 pm

Hey Deadlock,
Highly enjoying your mod so far, but I ran into a general issue with a rarely-used moddable feature in Factorio. Placing any accepted equipment in any vehicle's equipment grid causes this Lua error (image attached). This includes vanilla and modded vehicles. To give specific examples, I tested for the same crash with the mods FARL, Logistic Carts (logicarts), and VehicleGrid, which are some of the very few mods that make use of this feature. It doesn't appear the ability to have vehicle equipment grids is actually used in vanilla Factorio, but adding the VehicleGrid mod allows all the usual equipment to be used in all vehicles. It's such a scarcely used feature and it may be undocumented as to how to deal with it in Lua, as it appears to conflate player-related grid events with vehicle-related grid events, so I totally understand if you decide this one isn't worth fixing.
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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:01 am

ewired wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:55 pm
Hey Deadlock,
Highly enjoying your mod so far, but I ran into a general issue with a rarely-used moddable feature in Factorio. Placing any accepted equipment in any vehicle's equipment grid causes this Lua error (image attached).
I will take a look when I can, it's probably not difficult to fix. Vehicle grids didn't occur to me when I wrote the personal burner generator manager.

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Thoughts on the uselessness of bronze

Post by mrvn » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:29 am

At the beginning one needs to research and produce bronze. But when the iron age comes around and one decides to go electrical instead of coal burning the usefulness of bronze seem to be at a complete end. Excluding all burner buildings there seem to be only one use for bronze: The large signs. And given how few icons they can display I found them of very little use despite their great potential.

Couldn't there be some later uses of bronze as well? I've produced quite a bit ahead of time and recycled more. Now it's just sitting there uselessly.

Some real life uses today:

- (salt water resistant) bearings / flunges (motors, engines, offshore pump, pump)
- bells (the speaker could have a bell)
- ship propellers (in case some boat mod is used)
- springs (inserters?)

Thoughts?

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:49 pm

ewired wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:55 pm
Hey Deadlock,
Highly enjoying your mod so far, but I ran into a general issue with a rarely-used moddable feature in Factorio. Placing any accepted equipment in any vehicle's equipment grid causes this Lua error (image attached). This includes vanilla and modded vehicles. To give specific examples, I tested for the same crash with the mods FARL, Logistic Carts (logicarts), and VehicleGrid, which are some of the very few mods that make use of this feature.
Hi,

I was unable to reproduce this error. I tested with Vehicle Grids, Vehicle Grids + Logistic Carts, and Logistic Carts alone, with and without the generator manager turned on, and both while standing outside the vehicle and occupying it. In every case, the behaviour was as expected, no errors.

There is a dodgy assumption in the function that triggered the error in your screenshot, which I can very easily fix. The player would have to be changing a vehicle equipment grid in a state where they had no character or no armour slot, e.g. God Mode.

If it's not that, then if you can give me precise steps to reproduce the error - plus preferably a saved game or at least a full mod list - I will know for certain that it was fixed.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by PTTG » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:17 am

Could the flare stack be used to boil off excess water? This could allow excess water from water filtration plants to be automatically disposed of in an alternative way.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:25 am

PTTG wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:17 am
Could the flare stack be used to boil off excess water? This could allow excess water from water filtration plants to be automatically disposed of in an alternative way.
No.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by ewired » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:52 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:49 pm
There is a dodgy assumption in the function that triggered the error in your screenshot, which I can very easily fix. The player would have to be changing a vehicle equipment grid in a state where they had no character or no armour slot, e.g. God Mode.
I see now, that makes sense. Yes, I only tested these things in a sandbox scenario in godmode. I hadn't progressed my standard game enough to potentially cause the crash in it. Thanks for checking it out.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Mylon » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:35 am

Industrial Revolution + Bot Servicing causes an error on startup:
Image

I use "recipe.normal=false" to denote that the recipe is only valid for expensive mode, which is valid but Industrial Revolution doesn't expect this. Should be a simple fix.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by werelord » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:35 am

Noticed in my build today that electric foresters seem to not be affected by beacons (speed, specifically).. Is this by design, or a bug?

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Deadlock989
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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:25 am

ewired wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:52 am
I see now, that makes sense. Yes, I only tested these things in a sandbox scenario in godmode. I hadn't progressed my standard game enough to potentially cause the crash in it. Thanks for checking it out.
It will be fixed in the next version, whenever that is.
Mylon wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:35 am
Industrial Revolution + Bot Servicing causes an error on startup:
I use "recipe.normal=false" to denote that the recipe is only valid for expensive mode, which is valid but Industrial Revolution doesn't expect this. Should be a simple fix.
Jesus Christ, I hate that basic/normal/expensive recipe syntax with a blazing passion. Fixed for next version, whenever that is.
werelord wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:35 am
Noticed in my build today that electric foresters seem to not be affected by beacons (speed, specifically).. Is this by design, or a bug?
By design, won't change.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by fishycat » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:58 am

Hi Deadlock, the coal-icon is almost non visible in the tooltip after the update yesterday. Here the link with pic.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:15 am

fishycat wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:58 am
Hi Deadlock, the coal-icon is almost non visible in the tooltip after the update yesterday. Here the link with pic.
I'm aware. There is only so much I can do about it. I can make coal and lead and carbon products and rubber greyer, but then they will all look even more similar to each other. It doesn't help that the crafting grid background is still very light but the tooltip and quickbar backgrounds are very dark, or that the new tooltips draw a dark shadow around dark icons on a dark background. I will try to address this again when the player menu update drops in a future Factorio update but to be honest I class this as a base game design issue, I can't define multiple icons for multiple backgrounds, and there is no shader method for distinguishing dark icons, or any support for alternate icons in recipes (only for items and only in the alt-mode overlay, not in any menu).

The vanilla coal icon is also barely visible. IR has about 8 dark icons instead of one, and two of those have 6 variants each, so it's all a drain on my free time.

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