[MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

[Adamo]

Thanks for the detailed feedback. I think there is a lot I could respond to, here, and think about. So for now I just want to respond quickly to a couple items.

but so far everything feels the same, although i can clearly see the changed numbers. The solar power is a real bummer.. is solar in RL that bad? Like 6µW per km² while needing like 1GJ per m² and about 1T of mass to be created?

It's far worse in real life, both in terms of raw materials and potential power capacity... I was generous. I went at least 10% over the maximum theoretical limits. I compensated mainly by hugely reducing the draw on laser turrets -- there isn't any physical reason you'd need a huge draw on laser turrets that are just storing power in sleep mode -- and by buffing nuclear.

if i ever find any more gas, but maybe there is also a good oil product for this? Just tiny bit to expensive in the beginning due to the motor for the pump, which is sloooooooooow. Also a bit weird with their inlets and outlets and their additional crafting slot as a furnace . I wonder if it will be ever used for anything. Now i am experimenting with this 1x1 heat refinery.

I've been thinking about increasing the speed of the resource itself. I've already buffed the resource abundance to 5/2 that of oil. That is based around the total fuel value difference between the resources: natural gas and methane have a fuel factor of 50 where light oil's is 10, petroleum gas and heavy oil are 20, etc. (Crude oil is 30, incidentally, under my carbon mod.) It still feels weak, I agree. I've wanted to err on the side of not making it too strong.

I just dont like 1x1 multipurpose crafting buildings. Even with bobs inserter mod its difficult to supply, the heat is also kinda strange blocked by those refineries until they heated up to 500 if several are lined up.

You're not the first person to mention this. I feel like it's part of their balance. They're only typically convenient in the case I want to make something simple and fast: like if I want to fill up buckets of plastic very quickly. I agree about the weirdness of their heat pass-through mechanics. There are clearly two heat sinks in the entity, one of them that can share heat through the entity, and it only shares properly when it's running. All I can say is that as long as you keep heating it up it WILL get to where it's working and sharing the heat, eventually.

equivalent of a Zar bomb (200Coal) to heat one refinery up to get working, maybe reduce the heat capacity somehow? I cant imagine how i could ever possible take these 50MW of potential heat capacity out of it, since the heat dont want to leave this easily. Maybe i shouldnt use the refinery as a heat conductor.

Yeah, it's only a reliable conductor when it's working, like you've discovered. I reduced the specific_heat of the heat pump to relative by "energy consumption" value to the nuclear reactor, but I could possibly reduce it more... sounds like you mean the specific_heat of the reaction kettle, though, which is already pretty low, but I suppose I could make it lower. It doesn't need to be high. It's set to "250kJ" right now. I know "250kJ" isn't a unit for specific heat, that's just how it gets set in the prototype, here. Compare that to the value on the heat pump, which is "10MJ", or the vanilla heat pipe, which is "1MJ".

1 fifth of the mods you are referencing in your catalogue isn't downloadable using factorio itself, it just doesnt open the mod when clicking on the arrow. Maybe old mod, not supporting 0.17 officially?

1/5 seems like a high number, but there are a few that aren't available that I am aware of. That's because we have super sekrit mods. If it's only 3 or so, then that's probably it. If you're seeing more than that, let me see a picture.

[myricaulus]

1/5 seems like a high number, but there are a few that aren't available that I am aware of. That's because we have super sekrit mods. If it's only 3 or so, then that's probably it. If you're seeing more than that, let me see a picture.

Community-chest
concrete-lampost
d34dl0ck-basicoil
4x mfga-xxx
undergroundcablesplusplus

ok i am sorry, it were 8 out of 133 in total is not quite one fifth, the others of this fifth i actually decided myself to not install.
additionally rainbow-fluids is listed twice?

[Adamo]

concrete-lampost
d34dl0ck-basicoil

These mods are deprecated from the mod portal, as far as I can tell. Deadlock meant this mod to be a joke, but I like it. The concrete lamppost was Klonan's, I think. It's not on the portal for 0.17, and I'm not sure how I came about a working version for 0.17. It's possible I fixed it, but I don't remember doing that. It's also possible he had posted a version which I downloaded, and then removed it later.

If you read this, Klonan, the concrete lamppost is a great mod that should be continued! I set the light color to {r=255,g=223,b=0} in my Calibration mod: it gives it that hot summer night yellow glow.

4x mfga-xxx
undergroundcablesplusplus
community-chest

These mods are unpublished, for now...

Rainbow-fluids probably just a mistake, I'll check it out.

[myricaulus]

if i ever find any more gas, but maybe there is also a good oil product for this? Just tiny bit to expensive in the beginning due to the motor for the pump, which is sloooooooooow. Also a bit weird with their inlets and outlets and their additional crafting slot as a furnace . I wonder if it will be ever used for anything. Now i am experimenting with this 1x1 heat refinery.

I've been thinking about increasing the speed of the resource itself. I've already buffed the resource abundance to 5/2 that of oil. That is based around the total fuel value difference between the resources: natural gas and methane have a fuel factor of 50 where light oil's is 10, petroleum gas and heavy oil are 20, etc. (Crude oil is 30, incidentally, under my carbon mod.) It still feels weak, I agree. I've wanted to err on the side of not making it too strong.

I had RSO installed and it generated about 650% in 4 patches near my spawning point. This is just not enough to supply 2 refineries. I should try your mods together with bobs/angels then i get about 250.000% worth of gas in my starting point, barely used it though. Anyways those 2 refineries could supply effectively around 8 gas-boilers at half capacity and 50 gas-furnaces at close to max capacity. Compared to the starting patch of coal this is quite underwhelming energy-wise. I can fit around 70 miners in that patch producing 35 coal/s , which will easily feed 60-80 boilers+lots of furnaces? But maybe thats the Chinese trade off, quick expansion due to dirty power... but i heard that gas is also quite abundant, just that noone wants to maintain the pipelines

[Adamo]

I had RSO installed and it generated about 650% in 4 patches near my spawning point. This is just not enough to supply 2 refineries. I should try your mods together with bobs/angels then i get about 250.000% worth of gas in my starting point, barely used it though. Anyways those 2 refineries could supply effectively around 8 gas-boilers at half capacity and 50 gas-furnaces at close to max capacity. Compared to the starting patch of coal this is quite underwhelming energy-wise. I can fit around 70 miners in that patch producing 35 coal/s , which will easily feed 60-80 boilers+lots of furnaces? But maybe thats the Chinese trade off, quick expansion due to dirty power... but i heard that gas is also quite abundant, just that noone wants to maintain the pipelines

I authored the RSO settings for the natural gas resource, and I did set the abundances to 5/2 of that of crude oil, but, I also made the choice of having RSO only populate one gas resource in the starting area. Maybe that was the wrong choice. I didn't want natural gas to be too strong. For now, I've increased the harvest rate of the wellheads by 3 times, and applied a a minor increase to resource richness probabilities under vanilla resource generation. I think it should have the same abundance and richness in RSO. I know that the abundance under RSO is very good, once you explore outward. I will consider increasing the starting area resource numbers, too; but I might not do it. RSO provides plenty of oil to burn in the starting area as it is (2 crude patches under default settings). Under vanilla resource generation, the game does not guarantee spawning crude oil in the starting area, but I did set natural gas to always spawn in the starting area.

Let me know whether the changes make much difference, or whether they're an improvement.

[myricaulus]

Ok, without update, i scanned around quite a bit, was able to find 3 patches with 7000% and one with 12000%. I usually play railworld, so everything 50% chance, 200% Size and 200% "abundance?". I assume 20 Refineries for each 7000% so around 80 refinerys in total with all of 4 patches. With 2* 1.8MW per Refinery makes a total of 80*3,6=288MW total +/- 30% in addition to petroleum. So a vanilla game of mine without efficiency modules, will be somewhere around 80% on the way to the rocket using this amount of energy. In the meantime i found 3E8 Oil with maybe 100 oil spots , i cant compare that to anything, since its not with the Percentage, i assume because of fracking? I have no idea how that fracking stuff works, so i cant tell how it progresses. With the 4 spots in the starting area i can supply 2 basic oil refineries currently. The last 'vanilla-like' game i remember i was switching from coal around 20-40MW to solid fuel with a single outside RSO patch of around 60000% until maybe 120MW before i switched to nuclear power. There was still plenty oil left for plastics. So all in all, except the outside patches of gas being a bit smaller than i like it actually feels pretty good vanilla-balanced. Combined with oil processing there should be more then enough energy. With the starting plots of oil, you also couldnt completely supply an starter base with energy. So im sorry for whining around yesterday, but these gas furnaces are just so awesome i would love to make a complete base with them instead of those bulky arc furnaces, too bad there arent any gas blast furnaces for those fluorite recipes. I think i should utilize the gas only for the furnaces and not for Electricity, that way i dont have to mix different fluids for those furnaces later ...

What do you mean by "I've increased the harvest rate of the wellheads by 3 times", so that the gas will be empty triple that fast , or just outputs triple amount, which would be quite op.. good i mean ?

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[Adamo]

This is all great info. One of my dudes and I just ran through a new map to test the balancing of the minerals in Adamo Chemical. I've been doing a lot of balancing of that, and doing daily updates. I think I've just about got it, so watch for updates on that. It's difficult because there are a lot of different ways someone could choose to use the minerals, and this results in different mineral outputs, so I have to use some programming to set all the ratios based on what should happen, then run it to see if that is what does happen. So far they have turned out to match, so that's good, and now I'm just doing some fine-tuning. The update I'm going to release in a few moments includes a 4/5 reduction in smelting flux.

What do you mean by "I've increased the harvest rate of the wellheads by 3 times", so that the gas will be empty triple that fast , or just outputs triple amount, which would be quite op.. good i mean ?

Correct. They will empty 3 times faster. 100% of a natural gas well is equal to... 1,000,000 natural gas fluid units, I believe, since the resource prototype has

Code: Select all

minimum = 150000,
normal = 1000000,

which I think might also mean that the resource will stop counting down at 15% and the wellhead will output at 15% the speed of what it outputs at when the resource has 1000000/100%. I have NOT confirmed that this is how it works, yet, though, and have my own tests planned, but if anyone has tried it already, I'd be interested to find out what you know.

"Abundance" is a word I have been using to combine my mental estimate of the ways several different resource prototype values interact to provide the overall richness and frequency of the resource. I tweaked both higher, for I think about a 10% total increase in natural gas units on the map, but it will be hard to notice since that's spread throughout the map, and I'm not sure exactly how it affects the starting area resources under vanilla resource generation.

I think I want to make a fluid-powered blast furnace. I'm getting better, but making those graphics was not easy for me. It's on the board. I also want a building to make heat from fluid.

Finally, I'll say that I love the natural gas/methane resource, but in the end, I seem to use a lot of light oil (which I think of as diesel) to power my fluid-powered things. With the increase in mining speed, though, I already see a big improvement in my methane boilers' ability to keep up with the others.

[Deadlock989]

These mods are deprecated from the mod portal, as far as I can tell. Deadlock meant this mod to be a joke, but I like it.

It's Unlicensed, happy to transfer ownership if you wanted to do something else with it. It is just an enormous magic pipe though.

[Adamo]

It's Unlicensed, happy to transfer ownership if you wanted to do something else with it. It is just an enormous magic pipe though.

It's much better than wasting a refinery on acting as a magic pipe. We just use your last version. Calibration mod reduces the footprint on it a bit, so you can run around the sides.

[myricaulus]

The optional requirement for Adamo-Nuclear "Uranium Belts" is wrong. Not only are there two with the same name, you also do not require it correctly, you need to write it like "uranium-belts" or "uranium-belts-upd". In Calibration you refer to the older one "uranium-belts". This might lead into loading order issues.

Nice changlogs btw, thx

[Adamo]

The optional requirement for Adamo-Nuclear "Uranium Belts" is wrong. Not only are there two with the same name, you also do not require it correctly, you need to write it like "uranium-belts" or "uranium-belts-upd". In Calibration you refer to the older one "uranium-belts". This might lead into loading order issues.

Nice changlogs btw, thx

Ahh, yes, old references. I'll get those fixed up. Thanks.

[myricaulus]

Well actually those reaction cattle aren't that bad if used correctly Quite the opposite is the case:

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This arrangement just took exactly 1000 Coal to heat up to 200°C, and the pump will use 1500 more to heat up to 500°C for no apparent reason other than storing really a lot of energy. It really hurts to demolish anything related to the heat processing. The rest was connected until it was heated up to 200°C, then i realized how space and time efficient those cattles are *moo*. Btw: do you know about the problematic with different sized pipes? This permanent slosh/swash within them when different sized pipes are connected together? For this reason Bobingabout decided back at 0.14 or 0.15 times that his pipes would have all the same size. Its still an "issue", maybe just an visual disturbing one, but i hate to see this, and i wouldnt be surprised if it also eats UPS. I think i saw it with your cattles again when i tried to pass through water with the stone/quarz recipe. if two of the cattles connected it happend. Since they are small, i have no issue spacing them out, but i think you should know.

Btw. i even think this this arrangement could be a nice addition to your screenshots at your mod portal page, if you want i can make one for you, or even a video on youtube, oh yeah i will make a short video on yt of that if i get a nukular reactor going and some full light oil tanks, lets see how fast its gone =)

[Adamo]

It turns out we are in fact using the old version of uranium belts. Since I was already overwriting the changes made in the uranium-belts-upd, I guess we never noticed that a new one had been released. I haven't decided which I'm going to use going forward. If the naming conventions are the same in both mods, then either will likely WORK with my mods, but obviously only the one is referred to info.json. I'll update the catalogue and Adamo Nuclear once I decide how to go forward. Thanks again for pointing that out.

[Adamo]

I don't believe that is due to the differently-sized pipes. I believe that is due to the fact that the kettles are setup to pass through fluids. Without setting up a directionality -- that is, as long as they are setup to share in and out of all connections -- they will forever slosh the fluids back and forth, because they continue to pass the same fluid through to each other. Regarding UPS, I'm not sure it really uses any more UPS than otherwise while fluids are continuing to be applied to the machines, but it probably does use more UPS when they are idle. I don't like it, either, but I'm not sure of a better way to allow the kettles to pass through fluids. I'm interested if anyone knows a better way. I actually have an idea, but it's likely I already tried this idea and found it failed, but I will try it again.

[myricaulus]

I'm interested if anyone knows a better way. I actually have an idea, but it's likely I already tried this idea and found it failed, but I will try it again.

The only vanilla entity utilizing the pass-through mechanism i can think of is the boiler and it has this double arrow there. The boiler never had this issue AFAIK. Maybe you can look into that?

[Adamo]

Well actually those reaction cattle aren't that bad if used correctly Quite the opposite is the case:

I agree! It's just another balance. I tried to further enforce the balance by only allowing us to use recipes that have 1 or 0 item inputs.

This arrangement just took exactly 1000 Coal to heat up to 200°C, and the pump will use 1500 more to heat up to 500°C for no apparent reason other than storing really a lot of energy. It really hurts to demolish anything related to the heat processing.

Thanks for counting. Based on this, I think I should drastically reduce the specific_heat of both machines. I just don't see any reason to be storing so much heat. This is simply a relic of the nuclear heat mechanics, where the reactor stores a crap-load of heat, and there are probably fine reasons for this in that case, but in this case it is cumbersome.

stone/quarz recipe.

Isn't this recipe disabled? Or did I just hide it and so you activated it anyway? This recipe should be disabled under Adamo Chemical, and replaced
with mining quartz directly or getting quartz from stone separation.

Btw. i even think this this arrangement could be a nice addition to your screenshots at your mod portal page, if you want i can make one for you, or even a video on youtube, oh yeah i will make a short video on yt of that if i get a nukular reactor going and some full light oil tanks, lets see how fast its gone =)

Great idea! I'd love to have some more content to help people see what we're trying to do. If you're interested to come check out our servers, send me a private message.

[Adamo]

The only vanilla entity utilizing the pass-through mechanism i can think of is the boiler and it has this double arrow there. The boiler never had this issue AFAIK. Maybe you can look into that?

Correct. I will see how the boiler does it. I simply made a decision based on the fundamentals of how the fluid mechanics work, which I've become intimately familiar with, but that could mean I overlooked a possible configuration. The APP mod is another example. The difficulty comes in when you decide how you want it to be able to pass fluids back into a pipe. You can set the fluid connections to be constant at one level below the pipe: this will mean they'll all fill up from the pipe input, shared across every connected entity and without sloshing, but, if you want to then put fluid into a pipe on the other end, you would need to use a pump. The way it's setup now, it will share back out to a pipe on the other end without a pump, essentially because the machine's fluid boxes are acting as pumps, but in all directions. In my view, this is what causes the sloshing. Since I'm pretty sure the boiler also allows you to pass back out to a pipe, I'll see how it's handled there, but I think it might be different: the boiler can use a pipe connection type, "input-output", that isn't available to a crafting-machine prototype, which must be either "input" or "output".

Edit: you know what, I'm starting to wonder if you weren't right in the first place and my idea is all wrong. Because I can't recreate the sloshing on my demo world. Tell me exactly the conditions you can create it, if you would. You mentioned it may be due to differently-sized pipes, according to something Bob had to fix. I'm not able to recreate the right conditions even with differently-sized pipes, so I'm going to play around with this more. I know I have a map where it's happening, so I'm going to pull that up next and recreate the conditions exactly. If it does come down to pipe sizes, I will definitely change them to all have the same size. They'll all have to be increased to 200 since 200 is needed for compatibility with vanilla megareactors under my physics mod.

Update: clearly I was not correct about what was causing the sloshing. I can get it to slosh with a number of height and base_level values. I hit up bob to see what happened with him. Any info you can provide would be helpful. I will fix this issue but I want to do it the right way. There may not be a "right way" that also gives us the ability to output back onto a pipe without using a pump, though.

[myricaulus]

Edit: you know what, I'm starting to wonder if you weren't right in the first place and my idea is all wrong. Because I can't recreate the sloshing on my demo world. Tell me exactly the conditions you can create it, if you would. You mentioned it may be due to differently-sized pipes, according to something Bob had to fix. I'm not able to recreate the right conditions even with differently-sized pipes, so I'm going to play around with this more. I know I have a map where it's happening, so I'm going to pull that up next and recreate the conditions exactly. If it does come down to pipe sizes, I will definitely change them to all have the same size. They'll all have to be increased to 200 since 200 is needed for compatibility with vanilla megareactors under my physics mod.

Update: clearly I was not correct about what was causing the sloshing. I can get it to slosh with a number of height and base_level values. I hit up bob to see what happened with him. Any info you can provide would be helpful. I will fix this issue but I want to do it the right way.

I just put 2 kettles beside each other with the basic mineral processing recipe and it immediately starts and ends if i remove it. I can provide a savegame if you want.

I am sorry, cant help about that any further, its like 3 Years ago... .. i wonder if bob still knows ... maybe ask in the modding forum?

Btw: I abandoned my DyWorld run some days ago for a number of reasons and this sloshing had a big role in there... there it was even worse, basically every pipe connection with the first basic pipes did this there.

[Adamo]

Noted. The only place I think we have this issue is with the reaction kettle, the mk3 assembling machine, and possibly the gas-fired furnace. I contacted bob and I will ask around. Just note that I'm aware of this issue. My understanding is it should remain entirely limited to just within these small systems of kettles and furnaces, so it shouldn't make a huge impact, which is why I'm not going to stop it for now, because stopping it would mean not allowing the fluids to flow out into the pipes at the other end, which is a critical feature of the kettle, in my view. I am "on the case", so expect a fix to improve this as soon as I find one that is proper.

[BlueTemplar]

AFAIK, sloshing happened when bob experimented with giving fluids a lower "viscosity".