Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

[F_W]

I believe advanced circuits (or even the suggestion of plastic, though I find that a bit too basic) are much better fit in Chemical science pack, especially than electric engines. The only use for electric engines are exoskeletons, robots (and utility science pack), and the rocket silo itself. All those things are quite far, while advanced circuits are necessary for quite a few things rather early (modular armor, robots, ...). That's probably why I'm so hung up on cracking as a necessity because you still need plastic the most, with Sulfur second - Sulfur from Heavy oil would not be an issue at all with this suggestion though.

... I'd say robots are pretty important in this game about... automation. Both for new players and for megabase players... If it were up to me I'd keep construction bots before blue science and this recipe using electric engines would help push home the idea that this game is about getting your bots to do the work for you (as you can guess, I'm also against pushing the c-bots behind blue science. logistic bots behind blue science i'm fine with)

Welp, if you're adamant about red chips being in the blue science recipe, then there isn't much else I can say. I thought my solution was quite elegant from a new player's learning perspective as well as trying to balance the use of the three oil products. Best of luck finding a good solution then. I appreciate that you at least took some time to consider my ideas

[lacika2000]

While on the point of ratios: can we please change the new AOP recipe so that we are not magically creating more fluid? I know we don't want to always worry about realism at every stage, but at some point, let's be sure we aren't moving from playable semi-reality into the land of fantasy. The new ratios for AOP magically create 15 extra fluid. The BOP ratio: 100 CO--->45PG is reasonable enough, since while there is almost certainly nowhere near that much PG in crude oil, at least we're not magically creating new fluid.

Well, the so-called “volume expansion” is a very normal and, in fact, expected thing to occur in complex refineries with many upgrading units. This is happening because the upgraded products have a lower density per carbon than the incoming crude has before processing. So I would not worry about the added amount of products in AOP, unless we move above 105% of crude amount...

[FuryoftheStars]

I’ve been considering two alternatives

Glad to hear you are looking at alternatives.

It was based off last week’s changes but adding a heavy+light only recipe unlockable in logistic science. This process had petroleum gas as an input which would make sure the most basic one has to be done first, and this process was completely optional - the player could skip it and go to AOP directly. There was no cracking available before AOP. This would require keeping solid fuel in chemical science pack as a use for light oil.

The main problem was that “there are too many refinery recipes”, though I’m not 100% sold on this argument. AOP would become entirely optional, though an at least 2 output recipe would still be mandatory.

I feel like this one may go even further off the path if we're still doing a crude -> PG only refining, then doing a PG -> HO & LO refining.

The second thing that I have been considering recently would be to make BOP output heavy and gas only, no light. The point of “oil processing only feels like a complicated process if it has multiple outputs” is quite valid. This would allow to keep robots before chemical science. The argument of robots being a confusing trap that seems to be low tier, but requires many recipes can also be interpreted as a good thing, and a choice to discover.
The problem would be that heavy oil would need some use other than lubricant, as lubricant is entirely optional in this stage. Reverting the sulfur in science would help this for sure, but the point of “don’t make me produce SF out of anything else than light oil” has some value too, so I would keep sulfur in the chemical science pack.
Making sulfur from heavy oil instead of gas would work, and I can see it would make a lot more sense chemically, but heavy oil production would need a lot of number tweaks. Correct me if I’m wrong but petroleum gas would only go into plastic?
Maybe I could find a new place that would consume petroleum gas in addition to the existing recipe... Explosives? Batteries? Lubricant?
The science pack could easily be balanced in a way where the ratio of heavy:gas produced is the same as consumed when only making science. The rest of your consumption could either be smaller than a storage tank’s worth, or you would need additional storage until you could get AOP.

I’ll give it some more thought and try to implement the second option, and see where I get stuck or find issues.

I really do feel as though oil is mostly fine as is (aside from the massive over use of PG compared to the others), but if a change has to be made, I'd be more in support of this one. It's less drastic; less of a sledgehammer for a tool feel. Note that with the sulfur from HO production, you can just tweak the production numbers some if required to help keep the balance. Though also note, I do feel as though that plastic still gets used for more than sulfur, but it also has a lot to do with what the player decides to do at any given moment. Also, I still feel as though solid fuel should be left in the science pack and it should maybe be the engine that gets replaced (as again, what do engines have to do with proving you've mastered oil?).



Something else I've seen mentioned recently that I hadn't even though about, either, is if there are new players still coming in and failing on oil, they very likely are still playing 0.16 and not 0.17 with its changes to chem science. So maybe making a stable 0.17 and then seeing the results first?

But that leads me to another thought. Many players I know keep pointing to Steam achievements as the metric to show how hard oil is, and I believe you all have mentioned it once or twice. What occurred to me, though, is this: the people who have probably given the game a try and then quit are very likely not to retry after an update, or will only try after a few updates before giving up for good. What this means is that even if you find the solution, they will always be there to skew the numbers towards not getting past oil. The more people there are that are in this group (having given up on the game for good, whatever their reasons may be), the more players you need to pull in that get it and succeed to start seeing good movement in the numbers.

To demonstrate with numbers, let's say you had 100,000 players that are represented on Steam (I don't know the actual numbers, but I know they're higher, which I think will only help to drive this point further home when you consider it at the end). Steam says only 57.6% have unlocked oil, and 14.4% have finished the game. Now let's say you come up with the perfect solution and you result in a 75% increase of those that get oil to then finish the game (which may be an optimistic number). Just to get the 14.4% completing the game number to, let's say, double at 28.8%, you would need to increase your total number of players by 50%. For 100,000 people initially, this means you need an extra 50,000 new people to cause this change. If Steam is actually closer to 500,000, then you need an extra 250,000 new people. A million? 500,000. And this is assuming that 75% of people who pass oil then don't get stumped on something later and just quit again.

Point I'm trying to make there is that I do not feel as though the Steam achievement metric can be reliably used as a gauge anymore to determine how well people are getting it. The only thing that could is if you could somehow only capture new players only or something from a certain change point and then reset this after each change you make to understanding oil.

[Reika]

The idea of Heavy only and adding cracking is nice, quite functional and quite sensible, but a double-step cracking just to get the gas seems to be wtf tedious as you need to put vast majority of heavy into gas that way.

This is only true if you MUST have red chips in the blue science recipe. Why not get rid of it? There was a suggestion to make the blue science recipe use electric engines (to use lube) and lots of solid fuel (like 5 units or something). If you really want to keep 3 items in the recipe, then you could go ahead with the sulfur from heavy oil idea, which I think is reasonable and more comparable with real life

Here's a representation of how a heavy oil only BOP setup and thought process might work to a new player, without the "required" two step cracking thing that you seem so hung up on. This is with - in my opinion - a better blue science recipe that would go well with heavy oil only from BOP

Player: "Hmm, blue science packs... I wonder what it needs"
x5
(maybe, if you decide to keep 3 items for blue science and do sulfur from heavy oil)

Player: "I guess I need to research basic oil processing. What does it unlock?"
Have BOP unlock ALL of the following:
and optionally, the sulfur recipe from heavy oil if you decide to go with that

Player: "Sweet, now I can research blue science! But man, the amount of heavy oil I need is ridiculous. Hey what's this new tech called 'High Efficiency Solid Fuel Production'?"
Have this new tech unlock the following:


Player: "Score! Now I can make solid fuel more efficiently from light oil, reducing the strain on my heavy oil"
Eventually, to get more cool toys, the player will need to use petroleum. Group all the PG related stuff into a single tech called "Petroleum gas refining" and have it unlock the PG related stuff (but maybe not PG to solid fuel, that should be removed imo):


Player: "Cool, now I can make red chips with the plastic. But man, I get so little heavy oil from BOP. I wonder if there's another way to make more oil stuff. Hey wait a sec, what's this 'Advanced Oil Processing' tech?"
At this point the player can research AOP and get more light oil and PG while keeping a bit of BOP for lube if they need tons of blue belts, and can optionally use coal liquefaction to turn coal into heavy later on

This, to me, seems a much more elegant solution that slowly introduces the player to each fluid and its uses while keeping BOP and AOP useful just like it is now AND reduces overall demand on PG while raising demand for HO and LO, better balancing out the usage of all three fluids

This (including sulfur from heavy oil, either direct from the refinery or as a byproduct of making lubricant, though V seems to prefer a simple HO->Sulfur recipe) was basically my idea. I am still very much preferring it.

[Adamo]

While on the point of ratios: can we please change the new AOP recipe so that we are not magically creating more fluid? I know we don't want to always worry about realism at every stage, but at some point, let's be sure we aren't moving from playable semi-reality into the land of fantasy. The new ratios for AOP magically create 15 extra fluid. The BOP ratio: 100 CO--->45PG is reasonable enough, since while there is almost certainly nowhere near that much PG in crude oil, at least we're not magically creating new fluid.

Well, the so-called “volume expansion” is a very normal and, in fact, expected thing to occur in complex refineries with many upgrading units. This is happening because the upgraded products have a lower density per carbon than the incoming crude has before processing. So I would not worry about the added amount of products in AOP, unless we move above 105% of crude amount...

The proposed change moves us to 125% of crude amount. The original had 110%. Let's avoid the magic as much as we can. 110% was livable.

[Avezo]

Wouldn't it have been easier to just remove lubricant altogether instead? It barely have any uses anyway and bots wouldn't be pushed that far into later game?

Leaving alone that to me it always felt weird that electric engines of all things require lubricant, but all other things for which lubricant makes more sense do not.

Then, heavy oil wouldn't have much uses either and BOP can stick to just petroleum gas.


Also at this point I think it would've been easier to remove solid fuel altogether as well and produce rocket fuel directly from oils, maybe with some additional ingridients.

[Hiladdar]

MY USUAL PLAYTHROUGH

For me in Vanilla, the game starts as follows:

1. Lay down starter base, with 1-2 labs and half yellow belt of copper / iron plates. For that, I usually have 3 copper 10 iron, and 1 steel smelters. If I get backed up, not an issue. I also allocate room for up to 160 boilers.

2. Design / blueprint the main base consisting of the following smelting lines, spaced out for electric mining drills. Stone x1, Copper x6, Iron x6, and Steel x4. Steal x4 lines are 24 iron and followed by 24 steel smelters. The stone, copper and iron are 32. I this time I allocate space for the raw resource bus from where I will set up the raw resource incoming train station to where the smelters.

3. Set up the main bus, which consists of 6 copper plate, 6 iron plate, 1 iron plate, 4 steel plate, 1 stone, 1 brick, 1 coal belt. There is lots of room on the main bus for other intermediary.

4. Plan for science to eventually be 2 science per minute, setting up red, green, and gray science (yes I prefer to use the color, rather then the name).

5. Set up the the first 3 utility lines producing belts, inserters, pipes, trains, train signals, rails, fluid tanks, steel chests, med and large electric poles and lots of other stuff.

Those first steps can be easily accomplished in a few hours, and then the slow down happens, since now I have lots of other things that need to get set up while building blue science, such as:

- Expanding smelting
- Building fluid rail yard
- Setting up refinery, including allocating space for fracking
- Getting the first train to run, most likely to an oil patch
- Depending on the size of starting resource patches setting up the first raw resource outpost
- Setting up base perimeter, with a real wall, turrets and radars
- Flushing out the raw resource train station.
- Breaking down the starter base

At this state of the game, oil is just a small piece refining of oil is just a small piece of the puzzle. It is the one which appears to have the least return on investment (ROI), and in my opinion the one which is the scapegoat. For the most part, refining is not broken, what is happening at this stage of the game, is the player's attention is fragmented on many other tasks, some of which are implied.

Once the this is set up, the game speeds up again, with purple and military science (if it was not yet done). During that stage of the game, there are less side tasks, which consists of mostly monitor what was built, pollution, raw resources, and expand as needed. Implementing purple science in .16 was a joke, and rightly re-balanced in .17. Even in .17, purple science, after implementing blue science appears way simpler and easier. It is also at this time that intermediary train station is built and the first logistics robots Kitty Hawk moment and take flight.

Gold science slows down, and it is mostly due the speed of construction of rocket control and the need of processing units for other items such as nuclear rockets, armor, and so on. Bottom line, the first rocket launch by this time is a non-issue.

After the first rocket launch, the next major slow down, is due to the lack of speed and productivity modules, but by this time the base is in transition to a mega base able to sustain 1 rocket launch per minute and beyond. What usually breaks a map is when with the player computer's UPS becoming an issue, sometime around the 25+ rocket launch per minute or 10+ science per minute range when using mods. Without mods, this happens much earlier.

WHAT I IDENTIFY AS THE ISSUE WITH PROPOSED SOLUTION

My key point is refining is a small piece, and there is lots of other items impacting the game, especially between the implementation of green science until that first blue science is put on a belt. When I look at the number of specified and implied tasks needed for blue science automation, I see a massive spike of sub-tasks

What I see is a possible solution is to split blue science packs into fluid science and processing science, call it, I'd call it cyan and dark blue. I don't see that as an issue, since we will have red + green, then cyan + blue, then purple + gold, then military + white. This gives us 8 science packs, which can be fit on 4 belts deliverable to to labs. Consider cyan being composed of plastic, solid fuel, and concrete, all requiring fluids for construction. Blue then becomes advanced circuits, engines, and power switches. Designed right, it can split what is required of the current blue science to provide a more visible ROI to the player. But a change of this scope best left for .18 or a mod.

The best interim change which breaks or disrupts the least amount is better tutorial for oil processing, and a warning for when storage for a fluid is backed up. As an alternate solution, we can provide a flare stack, an entity which burns off either heavy, light, or petrol fairly quickly and only generates pollution ... but why?

MY CONCERNS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

My concern with the proposed recipe changes is the amount of mods, and bases which will be broken with the proposed changes, especially with the recipe changes. The tech tree changes will be somewhat disruptive within the mid game, and in the long run it will not be mod or map breaking issue during the mid and late game in the same way that proposed changing the refining recipes will be.

I am strongly against implementing the recipe changes to any version tagged as .17. I like what V453000 did publishing the mod https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Oil-Changes to let the players try out the changes and provide feed back. I am neutral on this change being implemented in .18 and beyond, mostly due to it being too early to start discussing this, in so much that we still do not have a first stable version of .17. as a new baseline.

Hiladdar

[lacika2000]

While on the point of ratios: can we please change the new AOP recipe so that we are not magically creating more fluid? I know we don't want to always worry about realism at every stage, but at some point, let's be sure we aren't moving from playable semi-reality into the land of fantasy. The new ratios for AOP magically create 15 extra fluid. The BOP ratio: 100 CO--->45PG is reasonable enough, since while there is almost certainly nowhere near that much PG in crude oil, at least we're not magically creating new fluid.

Well, the so-called “volume expansion” is a very normal and, in fact, expected thing to occur in complex refineries with many upgrading units. This is happening because the upgraded products have a lower density per carbon than the incoming crude has before processing. So I would not worry about the added amount of products in AOP, unless we move above 105% of crude amount...

The proposed change moves us to 125% of crude amount. The original had 110%. Let's avoid the magic as much as we can. 110% was livable.

Indeed, probably we would need to limit the AOP yield to 20/35/50 of HO/LO/PG to stay more realistic. Wonder if V can try these amount in his modeling...

[Yandersen]

I wounder nobody ever proposed to include batteries in the blue flask recipe.

[Theikkru]

I'd like to add that a big reason I prefer Option 1 over Option 2 is that it keeps solid fuel under the spotlight when it's most relevant in the tech tree. Option 2 skews the focus over to sulfur and plastic, with solid fuel being only a byproduct of imbalances. Absent an incentive to mass-produce it until the arrival of advanced processing and light oil, solid fuel would have its potential as an actual fuel source overshadowed by the utility of other oil products and rocket fuel.

[Adamo]

I wounder nobody ever proposed to include batteries in the blue flask recipe.

I feel like they might have been in the recipe back in the day, but I can't recall for sure.

[mmmPI]

I wounder nobody ever proposed to include batteries in the blue flask recipe.

I feel like they might have been in the recipe back in the day, but I can't recall for sure.

In 0.16 Battery are required for the high tech science pack. https://stable.wiki.factorio.com/Science_pack
I was thinking there were in blue science too at some point maybe before high tech science pack then

[Reika]

I wounder nobody ever proposed to include batteries in the blue flask recipe.

I feel like they might have been in the recipe back in the day, but I can't recall for sure.

They were. And that was changed in 0.15 to reduce the amount of sulfur (and thus PG and oil processing) needed for blue science.

...Sound familiar?

[Adamo]

I wounder nobody ever proposed to include batteries in the blue flask recipe.

I feel like they might have been in the recipe back in the day, but I can't recall for sure.

They were. And that was changed in 0.15 to reduce the amount of sulfur (and thus PG and oil processing) needed for blue science.

...Sound familiar?

I'm glad you brought that up. I had this impression but couldn't remember the specifics to back it up.

[Reika]

I wounder nobody ever proposed to include batteries in the blue flask recipe.

I feel like they might have been in the recipe back in the day, but I can't recall for sure.

They were. And that was changed in 0.15 to reduce the amount of sulfur (and thus PG and oil processing) needed for blue science.

...Sound familiar?

I'm glad you brought that up. I had this impression but couldn't remember the specifics to back it up.

Also worth bringing up is the huge difference in approach between this FFF proposal and the science changes in 0.15; those were also in a large part described as being designed to smooth the difficulty spike at blue science, and to make the progression through the game more natural. And yet out of it we got not simpler processing, or less features, but more items, more recipes, and more production trees, just with less of a jump between them. Because THAT is what Factorio is all about. I remember being so excited to try those changes almost exactly two years ago today - I still have fond memories of playing 0.15 in summer 2017 - and that is what we and Wube should be striving for again.

....
gets off podium, puts down megaphone, turns off spotlight
...

[Yandersen]

To what degree the multiple outputs are to be present or not could be a variable depending on the specifics of the solution IMO. The FFF changes are removing the multiple outputs completely, and only reintroduces them when a good long-term solution exists (with AOP and cracking), but as you have seen thus far, it's not an unchangeable thing.

Couple of proposals to consider.

1) Two types of recipe for pumpjacks - one to extract crude oil, another recipe for petroleum gas. "Petroleum Gas Extraction" unlocked first, adding pumpjacks and chemical plants. No more BOP&AOP - just a single "Oil Processing" tech equivalent to classic Advanced oil processing, the tech locked behind PG extraction. Unlocks crude oil extraction recipe for pumpjacks, the refinery building with 2in-3out recipe like old AOP, and cracking recipes.

2) Second alternative. "Petroleum gas extraction" tech comes instead of "basic oil processing". Adds pumpjacks and chem plants. The PG extracted from crude in a chemical plant in such a way, that the player will immediately face the multiple output puzzle in it's simplest form - "Petroleum gas extraction" recipe run by a chem plant with 1 input and 2 outputs:
5 Crude Oil -> 4 Crude Oil + 1 Petroleum Gas (0.5 seconds).
EDIT: note that in case the chem plant runs this recipe the productivity modules should not be accepted!

[Reika]

To what degree the multiple outputs are to be present or not could be a variable depending on the specifics of the solution IMO. The FFF changes are removing the multiple outputs completely, and only reintroduces them when a good long-term solution exists (with AOP and cracking), but as you have seen thus far, it's not an unchangeable thing.

There is some merit in the general idea that multiple outputs = the theme of oil processing, and of course the Heavy+Gas solution is compatible with that, while being very conservative in regards to the original BOP.
Considering option 1 (solid fuel in science), it does help a bunch as solid fuel requirements in the science pack could be increased quite easily since Light oil is not available, without getting into ridiculous numbers, without nerfing rocket fuel.
Option 2 is a lot more complex change, with the interesting part that only science production could be made in the same ratio as BOP outputs - and only the things built for non-science (indluding items on belts and fluids in pipes) would cause "multiple outputs problems", which could go either way. However the only solution for the player would be to either store more of one of the things, or convert it to solid fuel and burn it without incentive from a science pack to do so.

Seems like we all are going back and forth for 2 weeks chewing the same bubble gum. V is so stubborn... Duh!

Couple of fresh proposals to consider.

1) Two types of recipe for pumpjacks - one to extract crude oil, another recipe for petroleum gas. PG-extraction unlocked first, adding pumpjacks and chemical plants. No more BOP&AOP - just a single Oil Processing tech equivalent to classic Advanced oil processing. Unlocks crude oil extraction recipe for pumpjacks, the refinery building with 2in-3out recipe like old AOP, and cracking recipes.

2) Second alternative - "petroleum gas extraction" tech which comes instead of "basic oil processing". Adds pumpjacks and chem plants. The PG extracted from crude in a chem plant in such a way, that the player will immediately face the multiple output puzzle in it's simplest form - "Petroleum gas extraction" recipe run by a chem plant with 1 input and 2 outputs:
5 Crude Oil -> 4 Crude Oil + 1 Petroleum Gas (0.5 seconds).

#1 is a complete nonstarter - it is now extracting a refined product from the ground; you might as well have "plastic ore" and "sulfuric acid wells" at that point.

#2 is interesting; it reminds me of the 0.11 to 0.14-era UraniumPower uranium enrichment, where you fed in UF6 with a specific enrichment fraction adn it spat out a mix of a better fraction and a worse one, and so you had a chain of chemplants with recursively looped outputs.

However, remembering that also reminds me that it is not a good idea. It feels weird and is very prone to jamming as soon as you try adding productivity modules.

[FuryoftheStars]

To what degree the multiple outputs are to be present or not could be a variable depending on the specifics of the solution IMO. The FFF changes are removing the multiple outputs completely, and only reintroduces them when a good long-term solution exists (with AOP and cracking), but as you have seen thus far, it's not an unchangeable thing.

There is some merit in the general idea that multiple outputs = the theme of oil processing, and of course the Heavy+Gas solution is compatible with that, while being very conservative in regards to the original BOP.
Considering option 1 (solid fuel in science), it does help a bunch as solid fuel requirements in the science pack could be increased quite easily since Light oil is not available, without getting into ridiculous numbers, without nerfing rocket fuel.
Option 2 is a lot more complex change, with the interesting part that only science production could be made in the same ratio as BOP outputs - and only the things built for non-science (indluding items on belts and fluids in pipes) would cause "multiple outputs problems", which could go either way. However the only solution for the player would be to either store more of one of the things, or convert it to solid fuel and burn it without incentive from a science pack to do so.

Seems like we all are going back and forth for 2 weeks chewing the same bubble gum. V is so stubborn... Duh!

Couple of fresh proposals to consider.

1) Two types of recipe for pumpjacks - one to extract crude oil, another recipe for petroleum gas. PG-extraction unlocked first, adding pumpjacks and chemical plants. No more BOP&AOP - just a single Oil Processing tech equivalent to classic Advanced oil processing. Unlocks crude oil extraction recipe for pumpjacks, the refinery building with 2in-3out recipe like old AOP, and cracking recipes.

2) Second alternative - "petroleum gas extraction" tech which comes instead of "basic oil processing". Adds pumpjacks and chem plants. The PG extracted from crude in a chem plant in such a way, that the player will immediately face the multiple output puzzle in it's simplest form - "Petroleum gas extraction" recipe run by a chem plant with 1 input and 2 outputs:
5 Crude Oil -> 4 Crude Oil + 1 Petroleum Gas (0.5 seconds).

#1 is a complete nonstarter - it is now extracting a refined product from the ground; you might as well have "plastic ore" and "sulfuric acid wells" at that point.

#2 is interesting; it reminds me of the 0.11 to 0.14-era UraniumPower uranium enrichment, where you fed in UF6 with a specific enrichment fraction adn it spat out a mix of a better fraction and a worse one, and so you had a chain of chemplants with recursively looped outputs.

However, remembering that also reminds me that it is not a good idea. It feels weird and is very prone to jamming as soon as you try adding productivity modules.

#2 also results in a situation where you can convert (almost) all extracted crude to PG. It's along the same idea of if the sulfur process didn't actually consume its fluid input (as in real life) and thus in game you could just keep looping it around and extracting sulfur from fluids that have already had it extracted over and over and over again.

[Yandersen]

#1 is a complete nonstarter - it is now extracting a refined product from the ground; you might as well have "plastic ore" and "sulfuric acid wells" at that point.

Um, where does the PG comes from in reality then?.. 0.o

[Aivech]

#1 is a complete nonstarter - it is now extracting a refined product from the ground; you might as well have "plastic ore" and "sulfuric acid wells" at that point.

Um, where does the PG comes from in reality then?.. 0.o

It is one of many products of refining crude oil.