Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

[DanGio]

Right now, I can't figure out a better solution than the one proposed in FFF. But also, in my case, thinking of a feature/balance to come has always been really different from testing it ingame. So I'm really eager to play 17.59 tomorrow.

Also, congratulations on this epic bug battle you're doing since 17.0, it's amazing to see the list of them shrinking down every day

[IronCartographer]

If anyone's interested in testing a variation concept: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Only_Heavy_Oil

Thanks to Hexicube as per this comment: viewtopic.php?p=443337#p443337

[Serenity]

Maybe the 20% (of initial or min) yield of oil should be lower ?
Why was it buffed so much in 0.13 and then in 0.15 ?

They used to run dry too fast. In my very first game I produced solid fuel for boilers/steam engines. That ran my patches dry before I realized what's happening. Plastic soon became a trickle. Even without that the higher science packs ran them down very fast and then you needed to expand to new oil fields all the time.
And then there was this annoying meta where you had to surround all your oil wells with as many speed beacons as possible. You can still do that and maybe have to eventually, but it's not such a pressing need anymore.

They may have overcompensated with the increased yield though. Now patches last a bit too long

[DonovanHawkins]

First of all, I'd like to say I'm fine with changing BOP to deal with the "oil difficulty wall". Too many people take for granted that they expect to be able to solve difficult problems like this, and are unable to empathize with the majority of people who don't have that confidence. Steep learning curves give very little feedback to the player to help them judge whether they are making any progress at all, so they may give up without realizing that they were close to a solution. The issue is not "dumbing down" the game for a group of people that aren't suited to play Factorio; it's making sure that people who *are* capable of playing and enjoying the game don't start to believe otherwise due to a sudden spike in difficulty.

I do have an idea that I think might work even better than the new BOP formula: what if the initial oil processing just unlocked pumpjacks, refineries, BOP, and the three recipes for solid fuel, and the player was given a reason to produce solid fuel before any other oil products? This would be a manageable amount of new ideas to work with, and it would introduce the three outputs in a way that won't lead to problems because all three would be converted to the same thing. It would implicitly teach the player that all outputs should be connected to something by default and would naturally lead them to use solid fuel for that purpose. When they later start taking the petroleum gas to use for other things they will already have the light and heavy oil being directed somewhere and consumed.

Regardless of how oil is handled, I think the side affect of delaying bots is a problem. Having just a handful of construction bots is a huge quality of life improvement, and kovarex even said in FFF 160 that he needed to "figure some way to have low level personal construction robots earlier in the game". There's a big difference between a temporary single-refinery oil setup and some hand crafting to rush a roboport and a few construction bots vs. having to do a proper oil setup and hundreds of science packs.

Donovan

[Rainboy]

I think that inherently by having a puzzle after knowing the basic mechanics of the process, it already does distribute the challenge better. Indeed the multiple output process is the new problematic part.

Ah, herein lies the rub then. When I think oil, I think first and foremost of the multiple outputs puzzle; as I see it, the multiple outputs problem is THE basic mechanic I associate with oil and all its processes, so while I can understand shuffling recipes around to (reduce distracting logistical complexity and) make it easier to tackle, it makes little sense to me to separate it from the introduction of oil itself.

I see. I believe the multiple output problem, and "learn the new production chain" as in recipes and fluids/items, are two different things to learn/solve and thus can (and are a good idea) be separated.

Maybe your perspective is heavy influenced by the fact that you had to go through the BOP puzzle the first time and that's how you remember it / the iconic part of it, especially now that the items/recipes are just "another recipes" retrospectively.

It seems to me that:

1. The crux of your perspective is that oil refining is currently too complex a problem to throw in with pumpjacks, fluid handling, etc. (I agree)
2. Inefficiency is generally not on a new player's mind when he first solves a problem. (I also agree)
3. Realism in oil processing is (much) less important than gameplay. (I still agree)

While I agree with the philosophy and reasons behind the change, I strongly disagree with the methods for a few reasons:

1. The refinery building looks really awkward with only one input and one output. At least change it to use the chem plant if you're set on keeping the one-input-one-output basic oil recipe.
2. It introduces a lot of refactoring to the factory later. A new player will likely have to rip up all of their refining when they realize later that their one pipe output can't mix with light/heavy oil.
3. There are already so few uses for light/heavy oil, I'd hate to see us lose what few we already have.

I propose a slightly different method of attacking the problem: what if oil refining was completely optional for plastics? I suggest that you introduce a (very inefficient) new recipe for plastics and solid fuel which takes crude. Then, the entire refining stage becomes optional until lubricant is needed. New players can delay tackling refining at all until later stages of the game when they want utility science, power armor, or robots. Experienced players still have the option to pursue early robots, but new players can avoid the task if they desire.

[jodokus31]

Since oil is infinite, not really. It's easier (faster?) to search yet another oil-patch than to fiddle with the ratios.

Step 1) Build BOP -> PG/SF till you need lube.
Step 2) Set Up AOP for one barrel of HO.
Step 3) Build Coal-Liquefaction for HO/lube (at this point, the refinery may even directly output lube, since HO is (almost) obsolete). LO goes 100% into SF, replacing the output from 1) via priority splitter - once it's backed up, it's cracked into PG and the highest priority-source for PG-products.
Step 4) Expand BOP if you're low on PG.

This highly depends on map settings. AOP is still very usefull:
- If you have trouble to setup yet another oil patch (biters, frequency, etc.)
- If you don't have enough coal for power until nuclear. I think, you need at least a second coal patch in default settings
- Actually coal liquefaction is a similar complex setup

I will see, how the change actually affects the gameplay. I think, its not that bad. It's just weird, that lubricant is the new advanced oil product. But in the end, it's a game...

[motolly]

I'm going to suggest what I did on reddit.

BOP should output some sort of solid by-product. If you wanted to be real to life, it would probably be sulfur. Alternatively it could be a small amount of solid fuel, or something that can be turned into solid fuel with one step in an assembler or chemical plant. Maybe requiring a water input to wash it? This gets rid of the sudden multi fluid overload, and if people don't want to deal with byproducts in any useful way they could just put it in a box and let their BOP chug along until they discover they need to go for advanced oil processing for electric engines.

Just my thoughts. I suffered through BOP the first times I played, and indeed quit cause I couldn't really get it right without watching tutorials, so I'm all for smoothing out the difficulty curve.

[inkognyto]

I like the oil changes, because I usually just focus crafted the science to get advanced Oil processing right away.

I does make the game even more linear, which kind of sucks, but meh it's overall a linear game.

[Galenmacil]

Please, do not touch the oil mechanic! Complexity and design options are a big part of this awesome game. Do not take the path of other reckless developer who ruined game mechanics just because they tried to fix something that is not broken.

I created this account just to leave this message of protestation.

[5thHorseman]

If new players are finding oil to be so difficult, just do what's been done with everything else - put the dumbed-down hand-holding version of it into the New Player Experience campaign and leave the base freeplay game alone, for people who weren't born yesterday.

Thank you for so clearly demonstrating what V453000 was talking about here:

I don't really understand the argument of "it's making the game simpler" and I feel like many people take it in the "git gud" way - "we understand it, make newcomers suffer too" (I don't assume all of people who posted this argument think along those lines, but I'm getting that feeling from many posts). Advanced oil processing is still completely mandatory to go through, it's just a bit later. The thing that changes is that you can access anything unlocked by Chemical science pack, but you can only get robots after you get Advanced oil processing going. You could say the puzzle and the reward is exactly the same as it was then - except cracking provides a solution to the oil puzzle other than adding storage tanks to fix the problem temporarily.

[PrimeDko]

I've registered on the forums just to post that these oil changes are terrible. Why are you dumbing down the game? It is such an integral part of the game progression and challenge. I love Factorio so much, i have 850+h played and never felt the need to complain about anything until now. Please don't do this...

[_Attila_]

I don't know how many new players will continue to play beyond oil after these changes, but I know that there will be many people who will have lots of their videos, blueprints, tutorials and mods made obsolete.

It is my understanding that old saves will not migrate well, so many people will be playing with the current version, offering no feedback on whatever comes after until they are ready to start a new game.

Such a fundamental change at this stage of development just seems very odd to me.

What exactly about "Early Access" and "experimental version" don't you understand ?!?
(P.S.: And it's not like 0.17 hasn't already introduced larger changes than this...)

This sounds rather condescending to me, so I feel I need to reply to you.

This game may technically be "Early Access", but it has been in development for 7 years and it is only supposed to have graphics and UI changes before its 1.0 release. Also, 0.17 may be the experimental branch, but this oil change affects the stable 0.16 version the same way.

So, it seems to me that your comment is a futile attempt to get brownie points and nothing more.

[Deadlock989]

Thank you for so clearly demonstrating what V453000 was talking about here:

You're welcome. Have fun with your special recipe for people who can't think good.

[mmmPI]

Thank you for so clearly demonstrating what V453000 was talking about here:

You're welcome. Have fun with your special recipe for people who can't think good.

I think you miss the point that factorio has no ingame wiki that you could get information/help from, some people could/would like to play without needing external ressources, thinking about people who have expensive internet data or play videogames when they don't have access to internet, people that could use factorio to teach things in class ( i wish i had those teachers that tries .) or just younger audience in general.

I would have learned so much slower if not for the multiplayer, videos, pictures, forums ect. I don't think you can blame a dev for trying to make everyone play his game, especially when the game is that good. Disliking the way it's done is different.

When i was a 12 yo kid, i could take beating at Warcraft from older teens or play with my 12yo friend and enjoy games at my lvl, if there was a version of factorio for 12yo kids they'd become probably more interested in other things than killings orcs, for a game like warcraft, there are no differences for the 12yo version and the version for 30yo dude trying hard on internet, Factorio is a totaly different genre and a very good game, seems to me very good reason to try and reach other public, even though it's a question of HOW.

in case the WHY needed illustrations other than just the usual money and easy game are for idiots.

[Deadlock989]

I think you miss the point that factorio has no ingame wiki that you could get information/help from, some people could/would like to play without needing external ressources, thinking about people who have expensive internet data or play videogames when they don't have access to internet, people that could use factorio to teach things in class ( i wish i had those teachers that tries .) or just younger audience in general.

I don't bother playing games that aren't complex and interesting enough to not have to crack open a friggin' webpage occasionally, like that's some massive burden. If I'd had access to today's technology when I was a kid, it wouldn't have been any different then.

I'm also far past the stage where laying down individual machines by hand is remotely interesting, so anything which delays automated building is a total non-starter for me. But apparently what people who haven't played the game yet think is more important.

At the end of the day though, this joke nerf pitched at the lowest common denominator doesn't bother me in the least. I'm long past the stage where playing vanilla Factorio is at all interesting. This game's longevity comes from the mods, and I predict there will be mods that undo this change available for download within minutes of the change going live. If they're still seriously considering it.

[mmmPI]

I think you miss the point that factorio has no ingame wiki that you could get information/help from, some people could/would like to play without needing external ressources, thinking about people who have expensive internet data or play videogames when they don't have access to internet, people that could use factorio to teach things in class ( i wish i had those teachers that tries .) or just younger audience in general.

I don't bother playing games that aren't complex and interesting enough to not have to crack open a friggin' webpage occasionally, like that's some massive burden. If I'd had access to today's technology when I was a kid, it wouldn't have been any different then.

I'm also far past the stage where laying down individual machines by hand is remotely interesting, so anything which delays automated building is a total non-starter for me. But apparently what people who haven't played the game yet think is more important.

At the end of the day though, this joke nerf pitched at the lowest common denominator doesn't bother me in the least. I'm long past the stage where playing vanilla Factorio is at all interesting. This game's longevity comes from the mods, and I predict there will be mods that undo this change available for download within minutes of the change going live. If they're still seriously considering it.

I do share the same interest for complexity, not really into huge array anymore, i came to prefer small but weird/complex/unique design maybe that has to do with something to prove to others or something who knows

In this regard it is a good thing that mods are allowed and do provide such complexity at a point where it might not be that bad to reduce it in vanilla, or atleast getting an idea of granularity that would of course start by the bottom, the lowest common denominator, where we've all started. You are making an argument FOR the simplification if you say you don't even play the too easy vanilla.

Which i can understand after you've made some dimethyl-hidrazine with angelbobs you are very proud , this is one kind of complexity, playing with recursive blueprint is another kind of complexity that is less overwhelming at first.

Another thing that approach with the version 1. is a potential boost of everything related to mods, such as people waiting for version 1 to try and make their own, to the increase in their compatibility due to having less frequent update just to maintain, it could act as a more stable base that allow to pile up more mods at the same time without updating 5% of the factory every week as each major mods gets a new receipe every week to adapt to the latest FFF

In this case i kind of disregard the implications of the changes for my personnal playthrough, but i consider my friends who haven't tried it yet and i know they won't let me put mods during their first game , wouldn't it be better for them/me if they could understand the game faster and jump to a 2 game with mod faster for example ? As i do agree that mods provide the longevity since you get a potentially infinite amount of good ideas from modders

[Deadlock989]

You are making an argument FOR the simplification if you say you don't even play the too easy vanilla.

Nonsense.

[mmmPI]

I mean by that you put yourself in the group of player that are so experienced that they won't be affected by vanilla receipe change since they are used to play with XXXX receipe that you can't just memorize, or just that your game no longer involve such basic product as vanilla one, if you have like naphta natural gas, hydrogen, sulfuric waste, creosote, tar, syngas, oil residus, ect , why would you complain about petroleum gas being easier to get for those that wants it to be easier to get ? That makes your complaint subjective, sure it can be heard, but it has less weight for the overall purpose if it comes from a hard minority that insist into giving its point of view without even trying to understand the others, on the other hand that makes it a clear voice.

[Adamo]

Relying on mods to maintain interesting parts of the game that were once vanilla is not a good direction.

Some people play mods that change virtually the entire game (Bob's, for example, or Angel's). Some people (like my group) think mods should add to the base game but change the vanilla base as minimally as possible. Learning to handle oil is a critical component of what makes a factorio player a factorio player. Those of us who have been around since the early 00s haven't forgotten what that was like. We all went through the confusion of what to do with oil. We went through filling too many storage tanks (or, rather, not filling them fast enough, because we built too many). We've all seen our friends learn and get stuck on oil.

None of these suggestions adds interesting aspects to the game dynamics. They simplify it, eliminating a part that makes oil handling unique. We also remember how it felt when we finally "got" how oil worked, and then when we got good at handling it with underground pipes and all of this. Dumbing it down -- and yes, this is dumbing it down, and starting with only heavy oil is even dumber than starting with only petroleum -- just makes our game dumber. It doesn't add to what's special with this game.

Teach the players how to use refineries. It's not that hard. They need to be walked through the basic elements. I have introduced more than a dozen players to this game, and found this to be the case with many. Once they get it, they get it, and they feel good! Don't treat people like imbeciles. Don't make us rely on mods to maintain the things that make this game good. Many changes, I'm all for. Tear it down, make something new. But this something new is stupid. It makes no sense, scientifically, and it eliminates the unique gameplay aspects of oil except in the most advanced stage.

There's a reason you still enjoy being the second-highest-rated game on Steam of all time. The oil gameplay has been fundamental to how this game works. It is one of the few things that mods often don't touch. Do you think that's an accident? Don't do it, guys. It's going down the wrong path. Make a good tutorial, make some UI elements to clear up for players what's going on. Keep the game unique.

[mmmPI]

There's a reason you still enjoy being the second-highest-rated game on Steam of all time. The oil gameplay has been fundamental to how this game works. It is one of the few things that mods often don't touch. Do you think that's an accident? Don't do it, guys. It's going down the wrong path. Make a good tutorial, make some UI elements to clear up for players what's going on. Keep the game unique.

This is a different thing, in advertisment you have a similar question, you will have higher % satisfaction if you are a small niche of satisfied customer, it will reduce if you try to reach wider audience, because you will fail to please everyone and will need time to adapt . The question is often is it worth trying relative to the image of the brand.

I hope there can be a succesful way to be found that would not be a "dumbing-down", but if you keep calling any attempts to open the playerbase to a younger audience or a more casual audience "stupid", then you are not really making constructive criticism apart from voicing strongly your disagreement to the whole idea of simplification. Which is useful but has its limit.

I do understand on a different note the fact that you may lose the feeling of accomplishment that comes after you solve a complicate puzzle, i had personnaly advocated for a basic oil processing that would ouput both Light and Heavy oil, as to FORCE beginners to deal with a smaller problem with a waterless cracking to help them for those very same reason.


thinking as delaying the problem is not a good solution, but the more i read this thread the more i understand the middle approach taken by the devs, most of the fan-base is very against simplification, so having a small intermediate steps that don't change the end game, but allow people to understand the game faster and with less external help was attempted.

It seems to be received like something that impact the end game too much, changing the whole experience.

i still find that weird that if you know you are in the 1% - 10% of player with the most time spent in game, you think like : the majority of the players should have the same experience as me, if it's simpler then it's tutorial-worthy, why not you take the mods that fits your personnal taste , that reminds you of that particular version where you could this thing, or that particular set of mods at that time where this ect ect. instead of the other 90%

I try to understand others view but to me i choose a set of mods everynew game for 100 150 hours on average, and i have 3000 hours played or so, sometimes very light mods , sometimes heavy mods, I do propose the change that i think is better suited for the new players because i think that's the devs are trying to do and what they ask the collective crowd some help for, and i think it's a good think the game brought me good mood i wish that to many people.