[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[Recon777]

As you can see, to start with, everything from big and higher should drop by 0.1, and Leviathan has a 0.05 rating where most others have around a 0.3, meaning it's a 6th as likely to spawn.

To make things harder, I could add options to change the spawning so that tougher enemies show up even earlier, or in higher numbers in late game, or both.
They would all have to be startup options though, as this information is all read only in runtime.

Sounds like you're on the task. TBH Levis are far too drastic a jump from the previous tier. A more graduated approach would be far better.

Additionally, it's worth noting that Pawz and I have stopped using Rampant's new enemies and have switched back to Bob's because we just didn't like how fast it ramped up. The problem has never been challenge in the early game. The problem is challenge in the late game, which presumably Rampant solved.

However... Pawz's own mod "Swarmageddon" singlehandedly fixes the OP nature of Bob's sniper turrets by splitting dead biters into a number of lower tier biters whose combined hitpoints are a function of the dead biter's hitpoints. It works amazingly well and produces a serious challenge for anyone who thinks snipers are OP. Kind of forces the full use of Bob's arsenal, particularly weapons with area of effect like HE bullets.

Still, I'm looking forward to seeing what Bob comes up with for enemies.

[bobingabout]

Still, I'm looking forward to seeing what Bob comes up with for enemies.

Try not to get your hopes up too much. I'm likely only going to be making some tweaks, and not much else.

Looking at numbers though, I can at least see where each biter falls on the scale.
As to why base game behemoth has less health than my Titan? Consider that at the time, behemoth was a 0.99 enemy, not 0.9, and had 6000 health, not the 3000 it does now.
Basically, a lot of the time, I write my mods around how the base game is at that point. The base game changes, and if it doesn't break my mods, they often don't adapt to that change.

Yes, I have old versions of the game installed so I can look back and compare this stuff

[BlueTemplar]

[The GUI is more useful if you want to do a large batch of long handed inserters.

Changing inserters in batch is possible? How to do it?

Copying inserter settings is also useful... as long as you want them in the same configuration and if they already had the same "internal direction" to start with.

[bobingabout]

Because it's the only way to get a challenge in the LATE game.

if you really want a challenge, I could configure it so that the game sends you an ARMY of Leviathans.

I'm listening....

I already have it on my list to review enemies, changing the spawning shouldn't be an issue.

here is the spawner information as it is now:

Code: Select all

Biter spawner
    result_units = (function()
                     local res = {}
                     res[1] = {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.6, 0.0}}}
                     if not data.is_demo then
                       -- from evolution_factor 0.3 the weight for medium-biter is linearly rising from 0 to 0.3
                       -- this means for example that when the evolution_factor is 0.45 the probability of spawning
                       -- a small biter is 66% while probability for medium biter is 33%.
                       res[2] = {"medium-biter", {{0.2, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.3}, {0.7, 0.1}}}
                       -- for evolution factor of 1 the spawning probabilities are: small-biter 0%, medium-biter 1/8, big-biter 4/8, behemoth biter 3/8
                       res[3] = {"big-biter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.4}}}
                       res[4] = {"behemoth-biter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}}
                     end
                     return res
                   end)(),

Spitter spawner
    result_units = (function()
                     local res = {}
                     res[1] = {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.35, 0}}}
                     res[2] = {"small-spitter", {{0.25, 0.0}, {0.5, 0.3}, {0.7, 0.0}}}
                     res[3] = {"medium-spitter", {{0.4, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.3}, {0.9, 0.1}}}
                     res[4] = {"big-spitter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.4}}}
                     res[5] = {"behemoth-spitter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}}
                     return res
                   end)(),

Bob biter spawner
    result_units =
    {
      {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.5, 0.3}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
      {"medium-biter", {{0.2, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.3}, {0.8, 0.0}}},
--      {"big-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.4}, {0.9, 0.0}}},
-- Big enemies apear at 0.6, slowly become elemental between 0.7 and 0.8, and disapear by 0.9
      {"big-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.4}, {0.8, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-big-piercing-biter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.4}, {0.9, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-huge-acid-biter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-huge-explosive-biter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-giant-poison-biter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-giant-fire-biter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-titan-biter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-behemoth-biter", {{0.99, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-leviathan-biter", {{0.99, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.05}}},
    },

Bob spitter spawner
    result_units =
    {
      {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.25, 0.3}, {0.35, 0.0}}},
      {"small-spitter", {{0.25, 0.3}, {0.5, 0.3}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
      {"medium-spitter", {{0.4, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.3}, {0.8, 0.0}}},
--      {"big-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.4}, {0.9, 0.0}}},
-- Big enemies apear at 0.6, slowly become elemental between 0.7 and 0.8, and disapear by 0.9
      {"big-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.4}, {0.8, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-big-electric-spitter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.4}, {0.9, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-huge-explosive-spitter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-huge-acid-spitter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-giant-fire-spitter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-giant-poison-spitter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-titan-spitter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-behemoth-spitter", {{0.99, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-leviathan-spitter", {{0.99, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.05}}},
    },

As you can see, to start with, everything from big and higher should drop by 0.1, and Leviathan has a 0.05 rating where most others have around a 0.3, meaning it's a 6th as likely to spawn.

To make things harder, I could add options to change the spawning so that tougher enemies show up even earlier, or in higher numbers in late game, or both.
They would all have to be startup options though, as this information is all read only in runtime.

I updated, what do you think?

Code: Select all

    result_units =
    {
      {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.5, 0.3}, {0.6, 0.0}}},
      {"medium-biter", {{0.2, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.3}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
-- Big enemies apear at 0.5, slowly become elemental between 0.6 and 0.7, and disapear by 0.8
      {"big-biter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.4}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-big-piercing-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.4}, {0.8, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-huge-acid-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-huge-explosive-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-giant-poison-biter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-giant-fire-biter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-titan-biter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-behemoth-biter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-leviathan-biter", {{0.95, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.05}}},
    },

    result_units =
    {
      {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.2, 0.3}, {0.4, 0.0}}},
      {"small-spitter", {{0.2, 0.3}, {0.4, 0.3}, {0.6, 0.0}}},
      {"medium-spitter", {{0.4, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.3}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
-- Big enemies apear at 0.5, slowly become elemental between 0.6 and 0.7, and disapear by 0.8
      {"big-spitter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.4}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-big-electric-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.4}, {0.8, 0.0}}},
      {"bob-huge-explosive-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-huge-acid-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-giant-fire-spitter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.2}}},
      {"bob-giant-poison-spitter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.1}}},
      {"bob-titan-spitter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-behemoth-spitter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.3}}},
      {"bob-leviathan-spitter", {{0.95, 0.0}, {1.0, 0.05}}},
    },

Code: Select all

if settings.startup["bobmods-enemies-biggersooner"].value == true then
  data.raw["unit-spawner"]["bob-biter-spawner"].result_units =
  {
    {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.3, 0.3}, {0.5, 0.0}}},
    {"medium-biter", {{0.2, 0.0}, {0.5, 0.3}, {0.6, 0.0}}},
-- Big enemies apear at 0.4, slowly become elemental between 0.5 and 0.6, and disapear by 0.7
    {"big-biter", {{0.4, 0.0}, {0.5, 0.4}, {0.6, 0.0}}},
    {"bob-big-piercing-biter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.4}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
    {"bob-huge-acid-biter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.2}}},
    {"bob-huge-explosive-biter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.1}}},
    {"bob-giant-poison-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.2}}},
    {"bob-giant-fire-biter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.1}}},
    {"bob-titan-biter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.3}}},
    {"bob-behemoth-biter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.3}}},
    {"bob-leviathan-biter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, leviathanfrequency}}},
  }

  data.raw["unit-spawner"]["bob-spitter-spawner"].result_units =
  {
    {"small-biter", {{0.0, 0.3}, {0.1, 0.3}, {0.3, 0.0}}},
    {"small-spitter", {{0.1, 0.0}, {0.3, 0.3}, {0.5, 0.0}}},
    {"medium-spitter", {{0.2, 0.0}, {0.4, 0.3}, {0.6, 0.0}}},
-- Big enemies apear at 0.4, slowly become elemental between 0.5 and 0.6, and disapear by 0.7
    {"big-spitter", {{0.4, 0.0}, {0.5, 0.4}, {0.6, 0.0}}},
    {"bob-big-electric-spitter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.4}, {0.7, 0.0}}},
    {"bob-huge-explosive-spitter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.2}}},
    {"bob-huge-acid-spitter", {{0.5, 0.0}, {0.6, 0.1}}},
    {"bob-giant-fire-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.2}}},
    {"bob-giant-poison-spitter", {{0.6, 0.0}, {0.7, 0.1}}},
    {"bob-titan-spitter", {{0.7, 0.0}, {0.8, 0.3}}},
    {"bob-behemoth-spitter", {{0.8, 0.0}, {0.9, 0.3}}},
    {"bob-leviathan-spitter", {{0.9, 0.0}, {1.0, leviathanfrequency}}},
  }
end

[seeker89]

I know really off topic but could you make a god/cheat mode class. So when we are in free play I could use an avatar then switch back to the out of body experience.
Seeker

[bobingabout]

I know really off topic but could you make a god/cheat mode class. So when we are in free play I could use an avatar then switch back to the out of body experience.
Seeker

I haven't, but in theory it is possible.

[alercah]

I haven't tried the mod out yet, but I came here after looking at making some QoL improvements and getting lost in a rabbit hole.

Could you solve coal boiler priority by having a priority accumulator acting sort of like a power pump? It could have high energy priority to ensure it gets power during a struggling network, and then output it into a second network?

P.S. If you're passing things on to devs, a lot of what I would like to do is make custom circuitry and combinators, and especially making more readings available. I understand this can be sort of faked with hidden constant combinators, but maybe instead there could be an event to calculate signal values for each entity and connection point? Ideally you could also allow it to be done on distinct wire colours, and allow adding more bind points in the protoype definition. If there's a better place, please point me there

[bobingabout]

I haven't tried the mod out yet, but I came here after looking at making some QoL improvements and getting lost in a rabbit hole.

Could you solve coal boiler priority by having a priority accumulator acting sort of like a power pump? It could have high energy priority to ensure it gets power during a struggling network, and then output it into a second network?

P.S. If you're passing things on to devs, a lot of what I would like to do is make custom circuitry and combinators, and especially making more readings available. I understand this can be sort of faked with hidden constant combinators, but maybe instead there could be an event to calculate signal values for each entity and connection point? Ideally you could also allow it to be done on distinct wire colours, and allow adding more bind points in the protoype definition. If there's a better place, please point me there

The only bob's mod that could be called QoL is Bob's Adjustable Inserters mod, everything else expands the game in some way.

in theory, yes, you can have steam power pass through some accumulators, however, it still gets used at the same time as other accumulators, there's no way to change priority of what accumulators get used first.

As for combinators, that's not something a modder can really do anything with. if you want an idea to be seen by the devs, the best place to put it is in the ideas and suggestions sub forum.

[alercah]

The only bob's mod that could be called QoL is Bob's Adjustable Inserters mod, everything else expands the game in some way.

It was a very deep rabbit hole

in theory, yes, you can have steam power pass through some accumulators, however, it still gets used at the same time as other accumulators, there's no way to change priority of what accumulators get used first.

I was thinking of making the accumulator charge from one network and discharge to another, so that the stored power couldn't be used for things other than the inserters. Or would implementing that require too much runtime work by scripts to be performant? I assume it would need to be implemented as two accumulators that a script moves from one to the other.

I could try hacking something like this together; how do you define electric priority?

As for combinators, that's not something a modder can really do anything with. if you want an idea to be seen by the devs, the best place to put it is in the ideas and suggestions sub forum.

Thanks, will do!

[bobingabout]

how do you define electric priority?

On the entity prototype, Primary, Secondary or Tertiary, that's it.
Solar outputs with Primary, meaning it gets used first. Steam outputs with Secondary, meaning as soon as solar is used up, steam gets used. Then Accumulators are, and can only ever be Tertiary, meaning they'll only get used if there's not enough solar or steam.
Special rules apply to Tertiary in that Tertiary cannot power Tertiary, this is to make sure Accumulators can't power themselves.
Laser turrers have a usage priority of Primary, and EVERYTHING ELSE is secondary, except accumulators which again are Tertiary, the special case.

So basically, All power goes to laser turrets first, then everything else is shared between everything else. Accumulators only charge is there's power left over.
Solar gets used first, then steam, then accumulators if there's still not enough power.

And it's rigid, and you can't change it. especially not via scripts. (believe me, I looked into it, asked the Devs about it, and Rseding basically said... "To allow you to do that would require a rewrite of how electricity works. it's not going to happen in this stage of development.")

You could mod a primary or tertiary steam engine. you can't change solar priority, and accumulators don't work if you change their priority.
You could also mod a primary or tertiary inserter (or anything else that draws power, like assembling machine, electric boiler, or mining drill.) but, you have to mod it into the entity definition, can't change it in scripts, so for example if I made a primary and tertiary steam engine, for every tier of steam engine, you'd need to define 15 steam engines and 9 steam turbines to cover all combinations.

[Light]

in theory, yes, you can have steam power pass through some accumulators, however, it still gets used at the same time as other accumulators, there's no way to change priority of what accumulators get used first.

I was thinking of making the accumulator charge from one network and discharge to another

That can be done with combinator logic, power switches, and isolated/sector power grids.

It's important for the Realistic Reactors mod where losing power can result in reactor failure. You draw from the main power until the accumulators are charged, isolate the network via switches, and then discharge only to the reactors should things go wrong to prevent catastrophe. It's also useful for other isolated sectors which need to run even while the main grid is down for a few minutes, instead of the accumulators powering everything and draining in seconds. It's simple logic yet very effective.

The power switch needs more love.

[alercah]

Yeah, I thought of this, but then you can't easily draw extra power from the main grid while discharging so as to extend the discharge.

EDIT: Also, after poking around, what's the purpose of the coloured alien science packs? I can't figure out what they do.

[MageKing17]

You can actually use an accumulator to pass power between two networks by simply placing it so that it's in range of two unconnected power poles; since accumulators can't charge other accumulators, certain base designs use this for emergency power priorities rather than power switches (it's more complicated, though, because you need enough accumulators to meet total power drain to be on both networks).

[bobingabout]

EDIT: Also, after poking around, what's the purpose of the coloured alien science packs? I can't figure out what they do.

It's related to bob's warfare mod. some high end combat stuff will require them instead of the normal science packs.

Maybe I should change some of the infinite combat technology to use these instead of standard packs?

[RocketManChronicles]

EDIT: Also, after poking around, what's the purpose of the coloured alien science packs? I can't figure out what they do.

Alien Science! There are unique science labs you must build in order to use these. Do not produce too many! As there is only so much research you need to accomplish before they are obsolete.

[bobingabout]

EDIT: Also, after poking around, what's the purpose of the coloured alien science packs? I can't figure out what they do.

Alien Science! There are unique science labs you must build in order to use these. Do not produce too many! As there is only so much research you need to accomplish before they are obsolete.

so do you think it would be a good idea to change the infinite military science stuff to use these instead of space science from a rocket launch?
Would mean a crapload of farming, and never enough bubblegum

[RocketManChronicles]

EDIT: Also, after poking around, what's the purpose of the coloured alien science packs? I can't figure out what they do.

Alien Science! There are unique science labs you must build in order to use these. Do not produce too many! As there is only so much research you need to accomplish before they are obsolete.

so do you think it would be a good idea to change the infinite military science stuff to use these instead of space science from a rocket launch?

Maybe. I think it would be great to have an infinite Alien Science tech (only one) in which we can build on. Are you thinking that the military bonuses such as damage and shooting speed to require the alien science packs? I think that is reasonable when not using Space Science. It gives us an incentive to keep fighting and collecting artifacts. Although, at a certain point you have more alien artifacts than can be reasonably used currently. So, a sink ("incentive") to use artifacts may be a reasonable one. What are your thoughts?

[bobingabout]

so do you think it would be a good idea to change the infinite military science stuff to use these instead of space science from a rocket launch?

Maybe. I think it would be great to have an infinite Alien Science tech (only one) in which we can build on. Are you thinking that the military bonuses such as damage and shooting speed to require the alien science packs? I think that is reasonable when not using Space Science. It gives us an incentive to keep fighting and collecting artifacts. Although, at a certain point you have more alien artifacts than can be reasonably used currently. So, a sink ("incentive") to use artifacts may be a reasonable one. What are your thoughts?

That's pretty much what I was thinking. all the +damage infinite techs (there's what, 2 of them now? maybe 3?) would cost this instead of the standard packs. Science pack Gold for use in the alien lab is made from 1, 2, 3 and Military, so the only thing you're not including is Utility pack and space. Shooting speeds could be included, and maybe they each cost a different combination of alien science packs?

[RocketManChronicles]

so do you think it would be a good idea to change the infinite military science stuff to use these instead of space science from a rocket launch?

Maybe. I think it would be great to have an infinite Alien Science tech (only one) in which we can build on. Are you thinking that the military bonuses such as damage and shooting speed to require the alien science packs? I think that is reasonable when not using Space Science. It gives us an incentive to keep fighting and collecting artifacts. Although, at a certain point you have more alien artifacts than can be reasonably used currently. So, a sink ("incentive") to use artifacts may be a reasonable one. What are your thoughts?

That's pretty much what I was thinking. all the +damage infinite techs (there's what, 2 of them now? maybe 3?) would cost this instead of the standard packs. Science pack Gold for use in the alien lab is made from 1, 2, 3 and Military, so the only thing you're not including is Utility pack and space. Shooting speeds could be included, and maybe they each cost a different combination of alien science packs?

That's a good idea. Maybe have the blue and orange (because they lead to alien structural items) be a major part of the speed increases, and maybe have the others be more tailored to the weapon damages, split between the two. If there are three total, use all 6 alien science packs for all three techs, but have each science branch require more of 2 of the alien science packs (artifacts [like other 'normal' technologies]).

[alercah]

Maybe it should be so that you can research them slower without orbs? e.g. you can make coloured alien science from several space science. So that way you don't have to go find more biter bases to research the infinite techs, but it helps a lot to do so.

EDIT: Looking again, I see the techs that require alien science now, and feel bad for missing them before. Alternate idea: just require the alien orbs directly for science, so that once you research all the techs you can use them for alloy production?