[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by randomdude »

In 0.16 marathon mode, mineral sludge was not any better compared to mineralized water in terms of energy consumption. Need to check it in 0.17
You might be right, i only know the normal ones

My take was to rush iron smelting at first, before automation, because of the higher iron yield. (Took about 4 hours, mainly because of steel).
yeah, but thats 4 hours of doing nothing mostly

Tip: To save iron, burner crushers are very cheap and fuel lasts long.
Not anymore, they have the same energy consumption, and with boilers being 100% efficient, and electric ones having 50% more speed, they are better. But then, you will need to add 100KW to your electricity bill for every one, so more steam engines, so even worse.

All in all, I think, it's still better to scale in 0.17 than in 0.16. Need to try it.
Yeah, much better, but I would like to make the first hours useful. Not even for me, cause idc about grinding that, but the more fun you can have in those hours doing stuff, maybe more people that will give it a try
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by jodokus31 »

randomdude wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:28 pm
My take was to rush iron smelting at first, before automation, because of the higher iron yield. (Took about 4 hours, mainly because of steel).
yeah, but thats 4 hours of doing nothing mostly
Yep, I rechecked, it was even about 6 hours until i got the blast furnaces up. so even worse. (I turned up game speed and felt a bit faster)
Honestly, it was more like 25 hours of waiting and 5 hours of gameplay until arboretums. With a bit of building and planning mineral sludge for lead/tin, and building up green algae power, which was very low net energy plus. (16 farms, with 11 mk1 steam engines, mk2 were simply too expensive).
Very grindy and I don't think it could have be done a lot faster in 0.16. Maybe like 25 instead of 30 h. I refused to constantly handcraft fibers ;)
Tip: To save iron, burner crushers are very cheap and fuel lasts long.
Not anymore, they have the same energy consumption, and with boilers being 100% efficient, and electric ones having 50% more speed, they are better. But then, you will need to add 100KW to your electricity bill for every one, so more steam engines, so even worse.
Yes, you are right. Energy consumption got worse for burners. I mainly meant the 66 iron plates for each one which is like 10-15 mins of production in the beginning, and burners only cost stone. Electric ones will pay-off at some point and are easier to maintain.
All in all, I think, it's still better to scale in 0.17 than in 0.16. Need to try it.
Yeah, much better, but I would like to make the first hours useful. Not even for me, cause idc about grinding that, but the more fun you can have in those hours doing stuff, maybe more people that will give it a try
I think it would help a lot, if marathon mode would provide more starting iron like you already proposed. Then you can decide, where its invested the best. The cost of steam engines, etc. are getting less important, the more iron/minute you produce. Iron is life in this case :-). But of course, some cheaper steam engines would help, too
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn »

BlueTemplar wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:53 pm
mrvn wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:58 am
BlueTemplar wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:13 pm
jodokus31 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:22 pm
mrvn wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:58 am

The speed in the mod settings is 12.5 and the overhaul options are on.
These settings are overridden in "A Sea Block Config_0.3.0". So its always: 7.5 grey, 15 yellow, 30 red, 45 blue, 60 purple and 75 green.
Also the underground length is always 3 grey(jumps 2 tiles), 5 yellow, 7 red, etc.
So I think, it's working as intended
Hey, nice, those are exactly the settings that I would have picked (both for speed and length) !
(Though that would be for a normal Bob's game - I'm considering whether 7.5 - 15 - 30 - 60 - 120 - 240 wouldn't be more appropriate in Sea Block, considering what the end game seems to entail ?)
I find 7.5 is a bad number. It's really low. Only 3.75 items/s per side. The ratios it forms with recipes are very bad. I think 12 would be a much better number. Most recipes need an integer amount and 12 nicely divides by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6. I didn't minds Bobs 12.5 value as hat gives a bit of speed buffer. Just pretend it is 12 and the 0.5 reserve will help compress the belts and smooth over minor gaps.

As for increasing the high speed belts: I never used the higher tires much. Way to expensive and it's easier to build 2 smaller factories with lower tire belts than one big one with highly expensive belts. I mainly use faster belts to update existing setups from mk1 to mk2. So mk1 something with grey belts becomes mk2 somethings with yellow belts. There usually aren't enough mkX updates to get to really high tires of belts.
The 0.17 vanilla yellow belt's 7.5 items/s/lane corresponds to the "roundest" belt speed of 1 pixel/s with the new item densities :
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68569
I don't know if it's possible to make it rounder for recipes, but if you want to make a proposition, you'll have to tell what item densities on belt you suggest !
(As for the pixels per tile, it's probably way too late to change that by now...)

I also disagree that 3.75 items/s/lane is too low : that's already 15 burner drills and 12 stone furnaces per lane ! (EDIT : that's for vanilla smelting, but I'm expecting for early Sea Block to not have issues either, will check the values...)

And as you mention, there should be at least *some* incentive to use the higher tiers of belts !
(So, yeah, maybe more like 7.5 (for both lanes) - 15 - 22.5 - 30 - 45 - 90 for Sea Block?)

We have the same issue with Bob's adjustable inserters : vanilla inserters are already pretty fast, angel's large buildings make them even faster per building, and setting them to low angles makes the higher tiers of inserters very rarely needed... (until the end of Sea Block?)
My sugestion is to remove the overrides from "A Sea Block config". That way the value set in the settings for the belt speed takes effect. That means when speed overhaul is off you get 7.5. If it is on you get 12.5. And when you change the value you get whatever you set.

As for 7.5 being slow: A grey belt can handle:

# 15 Electrolyzer mk1
# 10 Electrolyzer mk2
# 7.5 Electrolyzer mk3
# 6 Electrolyzer mk4

That seems reasonable at first.

# 3.75 burner ore crusher
# 2.5 ore crusher
# 1.88 ore crusher mk2
# 1.25 ore crusher mk3

That already seems like a small number. But it gets worse:

# 0.5 Liquifier producing mineralized water
# 0.3333 Liquifier mk2
# 0.25 Liquifier mk3
# 0.2 Liquifier mk4

All of this you need at the start (although only mk1). A bit later you get geode washing:

# 0.84 Washing Plants
# 0.56 Washing Plants mk2

Geode washing is THE source for ore, they are build in sets of 5. A set of 5 Washing Plants doing geode washing need 6 grey belts or 3 yellow belts. With speed 12.5 it would only be 3.57 belts or 1.875 yellow belts. Crushing the geodes then more than doubles that. So 12+ grey belts per set after crushing for the crystal dust and crushed stone.

2 yellow belts of mixed geodes makes it relatively simple to sort them with splitters or to use inserters to fill ore crushers. Then when you get washing plants mk2 you can probably switch to red belts.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

geode_rain.jpg
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screenshot : 0.16 Bob's Logistics with belt overhaul turned ON : 10-20-30
This is also the only place where I'm using a red belt, and the place where I use yellow belts the most.
0.16 vanilla : *-13.33-26.67
0.17 vanilla : *-15-30
0.17 Sea Block : 7.5-15-30
0.17 Bob with speed overhaul OFF : 7.5-15-30 - So, yeah - actually identical to Sea Block speeds ? Why an override then ??
(Note that the red belt has the same speed in all 5, except vanilla 0.16.)
0.17 Bob with speed overhaul ON : 12.5-25-37.5
(Is the default ON or OFF ?)

Don't you think that -
Grey belts for mineralized water - (at how many electrolyzers do you generally top out at this stage?),
Yellow belts for slag slurry,
Red belts for geodes,
- seems like a nice progression ?
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by randomdude »

All of this you need at the start (although only mk1).
Yeah, but the problem i see is that most people are thinking the same way they do in normal vanilla or previous seablocks.

Belts have been nerfed, inserters have been buffed (every tier now moves like the tier above them in terms of rotation speed) and pipes are the same

Conclusion? Pipes are the new belts for early game

Below there are a couple builds with pretty good ratios for most things i think matter in the early game, and those who don't are probably cheaper to do this way as you save half the inserters, and all belts. I made them in creative, but none of the things i did cannot be done, nor optimized if given more thought, and expanded if given some more space and require no inserter technologies

https://imgur.com/a/z5F6cNK

By the time you reach geodes, you probably can have a steady amount of yellow belts, and even there direct inserting some things can save a lot of belts and inserters and it should be easier as you might have some of the inserters tech unlocked.

I do really like this new version as it makes you build and think totally different than in the previous version and vanilla (at least early on)
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn »

From memory I think your ratios are off. But that makes the builds very clean.

I think the mineralized water liquiifers will run only 50% of the time. And when you replace the burner ore crusher with ore crushers you want a 3:1 ratio instead of 2:1. But at the start that's a very nice build. The slag liquidfiers I think must be idle a lot too. Otherwise they would produce too much output iirc.

One thing you aren't using is that an inserter set to 90° is twice as fast. Even if it's fast enough at 180° you should still try to design it for 90° turns. Turning takes power so a 90° inserter idles more and that saves power. Given how little power the windmills give or how hard it is to build the first power plant every kW saved is worth it.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by randomdude »

mrvn wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:37 am From memory I think your ratios are off. But that makes the builds very clean.

I think the mineralized water liquiifers will run only 50% of the time. And when you replace the burner ore crusher with ore crushers you want a 3:1 ratio instead of 2:1. But at the start that's a very nice build. The slag liquidfiers I think must be idle a lot too. Otherwise they would produce too much output iirc.

One thing you aren't using is that an inserter set to 90° is twice as fast. Even if it's fast enough at 180° you should still try to design it for 90° turns. Turning takes power so a 90° inserter idles more and that saves power. Given how little power the windmills give or how hard it is to build the first power plant every kW saved is worth it.
Yeah, some of the ratios are off on purpose, as its the best you can get with beginning tech, like the mineralized water ones, which i assume by the time you start rolling normal crushers you should be able to have a more or less constant supply of grey belts at least and/or range 2 to allow moving to 3:1. Also, I did the math to check if it was actually any better, and even if its idle more time, every liquifier was like 15 grey belts, so with that few electros you might more or less break even.

Others where just because i just wanted to prove the point that belts aren't required almost at all, like ratios for sludge are way off in pretty much everything but a couple things, clarifiers might be missing, and such

About the inserters, if this was a build i was going to use, I would optimize the shit out of them (some even call it cheating as you can use any configuration without actually researching it), just cause i like it, but it wasnt the case for this snippet. I even did a command to print info about them and a script that creates blueprints for all different configurations to help me do that

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

(some even call it cheating as you can use any configuration without actually researching it)
Well, only for the starting 4 tiles.
Yeah, like on each new game with Bob's Adjustable Inserters, I'm stumped by the fact that you do NOT have to do any research to enable 90° inserters, and that you can use that from the start...
I'll ask Bob whether it's possible to make the GUI available from a research.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by randomdude »

I'll ask Bob whether it's possible to make the GUI available from a research.
Problem is not the GUI, but the fact that prototypes have a property called allow_custom_vector or something like that, that makes it veeeeeeery hard to remove the ability to paste a blueprint with a given configuration that you don't have

The GUI already kinda limits you to edit that configuration, but not the blueprint itself.

And about only the starting 4 tiles, thats not exactly true, you can paste any (and i truly mean any https://gfycat.com/UnevenHauntingBaboon) as allow_custom_vector doesn't have any limitation, so i can paste things like that or, as is more usual, any given configuration from bobs GUI, from the get go
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

Well, Bob's Adjustable Inserters only allow the relevant keyboard shortcuts to move to the relevant spots once you research the relevant techs, so I'd expect that something *could* be done.

Can you even change custom_vector without using a third-party or later game blueprint or a /c command?
Even if not, that still sounds like using a cheat code to me...
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn »

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:56 am Well, Bob's Adjustable Inserters only allow the relevant keyboard shortcuts to move to the relevant spots once you research the relevant techs, so I'd expect that something *could* be done.

Can you even change custom_vector without using a third-party or later game blueprint or a /c command?
Even if not, that still sounds like using a cheat code to me...
The point is that you can cheat that by using a blueprint from a previous game or made in a sandbox that has an inserter configuration you haven't researched yet.

Maybe on_entity_built should check if the inserter configuration is actually one that was researched already.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

Exactly : to cheat.
Like you can cheat using creative mode, or the map editor or using map preview when creating a new game, or using your own custom mod - what is your point ?
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn »

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:13 am Exactly : to cheat.
Like you can cheat using creative mode, or the map editor or using map preview when creating a new game, or using your own custom mod - what is your point ?
The point is that when you start a new game you still have your old blueprints and it quite easy to accidentally cheat by placing one of them that has inserters in a configuration you haven't researched yet. Nothing checks if the configuration being pasted or blueprinted on an inserter is one that is allowed. I think this should be considered a bug in bobs adjustable inserters.

The point is it's not just the 4 tiles the GUI allows from the start as you said.
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low tech 30MW power plant

Post by mrvn »

Someone mentioned that with the removal of wooden boards there now is a loop wood -> cellulose fiber -> cellulose paste -> wood that produces wood from sodium hydroxide. So I've made a power plant from that:
sodium-hydroxide-power.png
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I've place 20 boilers for exported power but only ~16.8 can be sustained for an average of 30.2 MW. The build uses Deadlocks loaders. Replacing them with inserters is left to the reader. You will loose some power output with inserters though. The ratios are also a bit off. 2 Electrolyzer can only supply 2.66 assembler to make cellulose paste instead of 4. Or 19.91 assemblers for cellulose fibers from wood while I have 24. But it keeps things orderly.

Overall I think it's a very efficient power plant with small footprint and low tech requirement. Too bad angle already said he will remove one of the recipes to break the loop.

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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn »

And one more argument why 7.5 belt speed is slow:
train-station.png
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Even without any inserter bonus this tries to unload 8 items/s but the belt only carries 7.5.

But let me clarify my suggestion: If you want to play with 7.5 belt speed that is perfectly fine and can be default. But A Sea Block config should not break the speed overhaul and speed setting from Bob forcing everyone to use 7.5. There must be a way to default to 7.5 (if that is what SeaBlock should) without breaking the settings to change it.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by mrvn »

Please add a link to 0.3.1 modpack to the first post.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

It's a *train* - why wouldn't you use more belts/inserters ??
And it's a train in *Sea Block*... I'd expect that you would be able to afford yellow belts by the time that you have enough landfill for trains !

But otherwise, I agree about the config (as I already pointed out).
EDIT :
BlueTemplar wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:20 pm 0.17 Sea Block : 7.5-15-30
0.17 Bob with speed overhaul OFF : 7.5-15-30 - So, yeah - actually identical to Sea Block speeds ? Why an override then ??
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [0.16] Sea Block Pack 0.2.17

Post by BlueTemplar »

mrvn wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:26 am The point is that when you start a new game you still have your old blueprints and it quite easy to accidentally cheat by placing one of them that has inserters in a configuration you haven't researched yet. Nothing checks if the configuration being pasted or blueprinted on an inserter is one that is allowed. I think this should be considered a bug in bobs adjustable inserters.

The point is it's not just the 4 tiles the GUI allows from the start as you said.
Good point.
I just rarely ended up in this situation so far, but I'd understand if other people did...
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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.2

Post by Trainwreck »

Sea block pack 0.3.2 has been released. Check first post for download link.
I've also updated the sea block mods on the mod portal.

Update 2019-3-31, version 0.3.2:
  • Decrease amount of sulfuric waste water from blue cellulose liquefaction
  • Adjust random placement of trees, plants and fish
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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.2

Post by mrvn »

Trainwreck wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:05 am Sea block pack 0.3.2 has been released. Check first post for download link.
I've also updated the sea block mods on the mod portal.

Update 2019-3-31, version 0.3.2:
  • Decrease amount of sulfuric waste water from blue cellulose liquefaction
  • Adjust random placement of trees, plants and fish
Does this include the fixes for 0.17.23 and will it work with versions before 0.17.23?
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