[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[Light]

Elemental nests are there from the start and are major ammo sponges that require several weapon upgrades or dozens of magazines each. I've had to resort to killing non-elemental nests to thin any waves, then placing a turret nearby to keep biters from expanding from it. They're a bitch to kill and it feels appropriate that they would take a lot of abuse before falling.

Honestly, it wouldn't hurt to buff the vanilla nests so they don't drop so easily in comparison. All worms could also do with a range buff as it's easy to kill most nests while staying out of range, when assaulting nests should be a risky endeavor and not a walk in the park as it so often is. (Also prevents turret creep that people still do to cheese them.)

Just a few more tweaks and biters should become more balanced to be a threat from the beginning till the end. It's getting better every patch, but it's still not in that sweet spot quite yet.

Regarding evolution 99% that is odd... In my tests, I set my evo to 99% and I never saw the leviathans. But when I set it to 100% (is this attainable naturally?) they were fairly common.

that's because the appearance chance is linear change, at 99% it's 0% chance, at 100% it's 100% chance (though total chance is it's chance weight divided by all chance weights added together, so if it has 100% chance to spawn with a weight of 0.1, and the total is 10, that's 1% of all enemies being Leviathan. I THINK it's actually closer to 4% of enemies are Leviathan at 100% evolution factor)

From what I understand of the evolution system the rate is slowed the higher it is. By the time 80% or 90% is achieved, you're likely maxed out in all combat upgrades and leviathans still wouldn't appear.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for leviathans to start spawning at around 90%? The wiki states that 100% isn't even possible with how evolution rate scales, so the major threat isn't really a threat anymore unless you're using mods which increase rates faster or science mods which reduce the ease and speed of maxed upgrades.

The only time I've seen leviathans is during tests or when the game is nearly finished anyway. I'm now using ScienceCostTweaker which majorly increases upgrade times, but I still don't foresee much of a problem given the hundred hours needed to see any, with Mk3 sniper turrets at the ready to rapidly take it out while lasers and flamethrowers take out the lower tier followers.

[BlueTemplar]

Curious what the difference is between an attack biter and a defense biter. Do defense biters not ever go on raiding parties?

AFAIK, they don't.

maintaining a pollution cloud that is reaching biter nests will certainly get you [to 100% evolution] quickly.

No, it won't, (at least not directly), pollution absorbed by nests doesn't increase evolution.
(It's the pollution produced that does, regardless of what ends up absorbing it.)

[bobingabout]

Regarding evolution 99% that is odd... In my tests, I set my evo to 99% and I never saw the leviathans. But when I set it to 100% (is this attainable naturally?) they were fairly common.

Reaching 100% evolution is attainable, but it gets slow near the end.

Usually at this point in the game, most bases will have pushed the nests far enough away to be outside any pollution clouds. And the base game scales nest spawner destruction down as you destroy more; so this is a very exponentially decreasing factor. The time factor is the only way a lot of players reach 100% evolution, however, maintaining a pollution cloud that is reaching biter nests will certainly get you there quickly. Or you can destroy something like 3000-4000 spawners.

I think the current EV of my testing game is 99.7%. I added the option to my clock to show EV, so, that's how I know.

From what I understand of the evolution system the rate is slowed the higher it is. By the time 80% or 90% is achieved, you're likely maxed out in all combat upgrades and leviathans still wouldn't appear.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for leviathans to start spawning at around 90%? The wiki states that 100% isn't even possible with how evolution rate scales, so the major threat isn't really a threat anymore unless you're using mods which increase rates faster or science mods which reduce the ease and speed of maxed upgrades.

The only time I've seen leviathans is during tests or when the game is nearly finished anyway. I'm now using ScienceCostTweaker which majorly increases upgrade times, but I still don't foresee much of a problem given the hundred hours needed to see any, with Mk3 sniper turrets at the ready to rapidly take it out while lasers and flamethrowers take out the lower tier followers.

3 things increase the EV value. Time, Pollution and Killing enemies. so if you've got to the "End" without leviathans, you probably have either not produced enough pollution, or haven't killed enough enemies yet (or some combination of the two)
The fact that I put green modules (MK8 reduces energy usage and pollution to 20%) in everything, I'm actually not pissing off biters much, due to low pollution. I've actually ran out of bubblegum as a result.

Yes, I call alien artifacts Bubblegum, because when you kill them all (except leviathans and bases as they drop the large artifacts) the ground is littered with the multi-coloured circles, it looks like someone has knocked over and smashed one of those old gumball machines.

[RocketManChronicles]

maintaining a pollution cloud that is reaching biter nests will certainly get you [to 100% evolution] quickly.

No, it won't, (at least not directly), pollution absorbed by nests doesn't increase evolution.
(It's the pollution produced that does, regardless of what ends up absorbing it.)

You are correct. It is based solely on the pollution produced.

So to correct my statement:
Most end-game bases have reduced the amount of pollution created through technology and efficiency. This can include pollution reducing modules.

[Light]

From what I understand of the evolution system the rate is slowed the higher it is. By the time 80% or 90% is achieved, you're likely maxed out in all combat upgrades and leviathans still wouldn't appear.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for leviathans to start spawning at around 90%? The wiki states that 100% isn't even possible with how evolution rate scales, so the major threat isn't really a threat anymore unless you're using mods which increase rates faster or science mods which reduce the ease and speed of maxed upgrades.

The only time I've seen leviathans is during tests or when the game is nearly finished anyway. I'm now using ScienceCostTweaker which majorly increases upgrade times, but I still don't foresee much of a problem given the hundred hours needed to see any, with Mk3 sniper turrets at the ready to rapidly take it out while lasers and flamethrowers take out the lower tier followers.

3 things increase the EV value. Time, Pollution and Killing enemies. so if you've got to the "End" without leviathans, you probably have either not produced enough pollution, or haven't killed enough enemies yet (or some combination of the two)
The fact that I put green modules (MK8 reduces energy usage and pollution to 20%) in everything, I'm actually not pissing off biters much, due to low pollution. I've actually ran out of bubblegum as a result.

Yes, I call alien artifacts Bubblegum, because when you kill them all (except leviathans and bases as they drop the large artifacts) the ground is littered with the multi-coloured circles, it looks like someone has knocked over and smashed one of those old gumball machines.

Well, I'll tell you exactly why I don't see them naturally.

After securing distant choke points with well fortified outposts there's no further need to destroy nests. My outposts are far enough that territorial expansion isn't required as there's more land available than is required, with trains supplying the outposts with ammo and coal for power. Pollution is still kept under control with efficiency modules on all miners and other high polluters, so that evolution rate barely moves once the initial nest clearing is complete.

I also disable small artifacts which likely plays a role in why I don't bother to intentionally provoke the biters to farm them. The initial nest clear provides more than enough for the core techs.

There was a time in 0.15 when my west defensive outpost was neglected and the biters successfully expanded behind the fortification, expanding closer to the factory but still being too far away to be much of a threat. The reason I didn't care was because I was at the "End" and launched the rocket just an hour later. Evolution was around 92% or so, as was the case for my 0.16 playthrough.

With 0.17 being much more logistically heavy due to ScienceCostTweaker there will be more pollution, but I've never come close to 100% naturally in the past to get a rough estimate. However, I have tested defensive outposts against leviathans in test maps with subpar/low tier defenses and it's still not that big of a threat, that is unless there are more than three in a wave which is enough to cave defenses that aren't equipped with several Mk3 sniper turrets. Something that's researched long before they're needed and easily built to deal with the problem.

---

Balance from experience:

Biters for me tend to be easy in the start, balanced and decently threatening mid-game (40-70%), then drop off into easy territory again once the military tech starts taking priority. Buffing vanilla nests and increasing worm range would drastically improve the early game by making biter bases harder to remove and ignore. The mid game would permit far easier nest removal once you tech up cannons and rockets, but it's still dangerous with elemental biters lurking about. Leviathans starting at 90% could put some pressure on weaker defenses, but anyone who knows the threat will be more than prepared.

So while I'm pretty sure what would make the balance and threat level better early on, I'm not sure on how to make them a threat once military tech becomes a priority later in the game. The defenses are too strong at that point, which with damage boosting tech providing generously large percentage increases can drop almost everything in a single hit. Perhaps a nerf to damage and attack speed percentages would make all the difference, as they help make even low tier turrets quite potent for a very long time. You can even get away with using Mk2 and skipping all the way to Mk5 if you get a few boosts to compensate the difference. I've been doing that since I discovered your mods in 0.14 and nothing has changed.

Perhaps it's something to consider looking into. You could even create a dropdown menu in the mod options for people to enable and test balance changes to see what they think, as several difficulty options would most certainly be a plus.

[RocketManChronicles]

Balance from experience:

Biters for me tend to be easy in the start, balanced and decently threatening mid-game (40-70%), then drop off into easy territory again once the military tech starts taking priority. Buffing vanilla nests and increasing worm range would drastically improve the early game by making biter bases harder to remove and ignore. The mid game would permit far easier nest removal once you tech up cannons and rockets, but it's still dangerous with elemental biters lurking about. Leviathans starting at 90% could put some pressure on weaker defenses, but anyone who knows the threat will be more than prepared.

So while I'm pretty sure what would make the balance and threat level better early on, I'm not sure on how to make them a threat once military tech becomes a priority later in the game. The defenses are too strong at that point, which with damage boosting tech providing generously large percentage increases can drop almost everything in a single hit. Perhaps a nerf to damage and attack speed percentages would make all the difference, as they help make even low tier turrets quite potent for a very long time. You can even get away with using Mk2 and skipping all the way to Mk5 if you get a few boosts to compensate the difference. I've been doing that since I discovered your mods in 0.14 and nothing has changed.

Perhaps it's something to consider looking into. You could even create a dropdown menu in the mod options for people to enable and test balance changes to see what they think, as several difficulty options would most certainly be a plus.

I have similar views of the difficulty. Except I have made the beginning of the game extremely difficult with adding Will O The Wisps mod. This mod makes the early game damn near impossible if the "Red Tide" gets you (a large group of red wisps that multiply because you cannot do enough damage to kill them). They just swarm your base and destroy everything given the right conditions.

Anyway, Leviathans can catch you off-guard if your defenses are not upgraded. I was surprised by them in my 0.16 game because I was surviving until that moment with mk3 Gun Turrets, mk2 Laser Turrets, and using only Bob's Mods Ammo (non-elemental). Those allowed me to fend off anything without a worry until the evolution hit .90. I had the tech researched and the production of higher tiers, just never upgraded the main walls until the biters were well within my base. So, my take is that everything (biters and spitters) is rather weak compared to defenses in general. Once you have robots repairing the walls and turrets, nothing is really getting through.

As for the artifacts, I had suggested that maybe there is an infinite research (just one) that requires the alien science packs. That way you can 'farm' the artifacts or continue collecting them in the end-game to further a tech. As for what that tech would provide, I have no idea.

[Recon777]

As someone who loves having the near-death experience throughout the entire game, I support a hitpoint increase. From experience, (as mentioned in above 0.16 game) I was sitting comfortably for a long time with basic defenses until the Leviathan biters.

Keep an eye on the Swarm mod that Pawz and I are working on. What we've made so far is terrifying but also not impossible. It is what I'd call a "fair fight" in the final stages of the game's progression. Though we have not yet figured out the final balance because it is going to depend on what bob does with biter hitpoints.

Essentially, our hope is that when you kill a larger biter, it will split into smaller ones that have hitpoints which roughly add up to the one you killed. This means you'll need to kill those hitpoints all over again until it is distributed across a bazillion small biters. At least that's the theory. In practice, so far we've got behemoths splitting into 2 titans, which split into 2 giants, which split into 2 huge's which split into 3 big's which split into 3 mediums, which split into 3 smalls and then you're done. It is VERY challenging, but a strong line of stacked Mk5 lasers sprinkled with flame turrets will hold them off. If you're lucky. HE bullets in a line of Mk3 snipers behind a line of Mk5 turrets also work very nicely.

Regardless, some consistency in the progression is important, which is why we need to revisit the progression in the game from huge > behemoth > titan > badass > leviathan and consider the hitpoints of each.

[Recon777]

Honestly, it wouldn't hurt to buff the vanilla nests so they don't drop so easily in comparison. All worms could also do with a range buff as it's easy to kill most nests while staying out of range, when assaulting nests should be a risky endeavor and not a walk in the park as it so often is. (Also prevents turret creep that people still do to cheese them.)

Uh... Well in my experience, turret creep is the ONLY way to gain territory once you get past the very early game. In fact, I've got autofill as an essential mod for this because really, personal firearms are useless beyond the early game. As mentioned, it can take dozens of magazines to kill one nest. And usually, they'll wipe you out before you get that far and you'll have to start all over again if you have to leave and come back. Apart from placing turrets, I don't know how y'all ever gain land from the bugs. At least until you get to the point where you have tanks to drive around, which opens things up for a while.

But please let's not have worms outranging sniper turrets. lol

Oh, also are spitters still meant to have tracking projectiles? Worms don't now, but I noticed spitters still do.

[Light]

Honestly, it wouldn't hurt to buff the vanilla nests so they don't drop so easily in comparison. All worms could also do with a range buff as it's easy to kill most nests while staying out of range, when assaulting nests should be a risky endeavor and not a walk in the park as it so often is. (Also prevents turret creep that people still do to cheese them.)

Uh... Well in my experience, turret creep is the ONLY way to gain territory once you get past the very early game. In fact, I've got autofill as an essential mod for this because really, personal firearms are useless beyond the early game. As mentioned, it can take dozens of magazines to kill one nest. And usually, they'll wipe you out before you get that far and you'll have to start all over again if you have to leave and come back. Apart from placing turrets, I don't know how y'all ever gain land from the bugs. At least until you get to the point where you have tanks to drive around, which opens things up for a while.

Have you never looked at the military tab before? The reason turret creep is entirely unnecessary is because there's an entire arsenal at your disposal. Rocket launchers which dominate nests and worms, landmines and grenades to keep waves at bay when you're advancing, and vehicles not only boost attack damage but also provide armour and crushing capability. The car also allows you to hit and run without taking any damage if you're not careless.

That's not even getting into things like the sniper rifle and flamethrower which are very potent weapons for their intended targets. Along with capsules and the laser rifle for very swift massacres, all of which become all the more powerful once you obtain better armour and higher tier ammo types. Hell, even the SMG starts to pick up drastically in power once you obtain Bob's elemental ammo.

The options are plentiful mid-game and only become more powerful as you progress. Cheesing has never been necessary to overcome biters and the fact you believe it's the only way is quite saddening and only reinforces my point. Try getting creative and using other tools to overcome the problem and you'll likely find out you've been missing out on some neat toys. After all, you have three weapon slots for a reason, so find your favourite combination of weapons and take the land by yourself.

[thatguyagain]

Hey bob, I just had an idea that I hope wouldn't be too hard to implement: multicolored plastic pipes. Literally just plastic pipes but reskinned in a few other colors of the rainbow. It would be great for some builds where the pipe spaghetti gets confusing. I know there's already a ton of pipe options but vibrant colors can be really helpful and plastic would make the most sense for this.

[Recon777]

Have you never looked at the military tab before?

Nope. Never looked at the military tab. But now, thanks to the power of sarcasm, I have been enlightened!!

In my experience, things like the sniper rifle have been far too ineffective because you are just one "turret" and not even close to as effective as an actual turret. Last time I tried rocket launchers, they were pretty ineffective. Flame throwers have been seriously nerfed in the base game of course. Overall, it's about the issue of being overrun and swarmed, which on the biter settings I use, happens very easily. I prefer settings which make the late game a real military challenge. It depends a lot on the settings you play with. Maybe yours are light enough to singlehandedly tackle mid-game nests. Trust me, that is not an option with the enemies I face. If I rush in with any less than twenty sniper turrets, I'll get mowed down in short order.

[Light]

Have you never looked at the military tab before?

Nope. Never looked at the military tab. But now, thanks to the power of sarcasm, I have been enlightened!!

In my experience, things like the sniper rifle have been far too ineffective because you are just one "turret" and not even close to as effective as an actual turret. Last time I tried rocket launchers, they were pretty ineffective. Flame throwers have been seriously nerfed in the base game of course. Overall, it's about the issue of being overrun and swarmed, which on the biter settings I use, happens very easily. I prefer settings which make the late game a real military challenge. It depends a lot on the settings you play with. Maybe yours are light enough to singlehandedly tackle mid-game nests. Trust me, that is not an option with the enemies I face. If I rush in with any less than twenty sniper turrets, I'll get mowed down in short order.

I wasn't being sarcastic. You genuinely sounded like you never explored any other options before, especially when saying turret creep is the "only" option and dismissing personal weapons as useless beyond early game.

Also, my games are remarkably biter intensive with the plethora of mods to ensure it's a rough experience from the start. Just a small bit of pollution is enough to cause quite a stir and once nightfall occurs then it's horde mode for 20-30 minutes. The threat of defeat is a strong possibility and I've lost games a few times by making careless mistakes. I'd not have it any other way since it's quite an adrenaline rush to overcome the odds.

Yet despite the chaos, the weapons at our disposal are still effective if used correctly. The options are all viable and equipping yourself with the right weapons can help you overcome each enemy you encounter. I'm sorry you feel like you're so powerless, and indeed there are some big nests that can't be destroyed until later on. Analyze the situation, prepare for the conflict, then do your best. Eventually you will overcome them, even if you have to wear them down over time.

Just don't tell me that turret creep is the only way and then shoot down my reasoning for why it's not by assuming I'm a lightweight when the reality is far from that. I'm telling you it can be done, so what you do with that is up to you.

[Recon777]

Well, I tell you what. Next time I start a new game, I'll give that strategy a shot. I just know that I used to attempt doing it that way several versions ago and was rather unimpressed with the effectiveness of personal weapons. Maybe that has changed and deserves another shot. That's fair.

So are you saying basically that you don't bring turrets along when attacking a nest? Even to create a safe run-to spot? My tactic was usually to put down a small line of turrets and then rush in to see if I could at least take one spawner down before having to retreat to the turret line and then try again. But without even that to run to, success seems doubtful.

[RocketManChronicles]

Have you never looked at the military tab before?

Nope. Never looked at the military tab. But now, thanks to the power of sarcasm, I have been enlightened!!

In my experience, things like the sniper rifle have been far too ineffective because you are just one "turret" and not even close to as effective as an actual turret. Last time I tried rocket launchers, they were pretty ineffective. Flame throwers have been seriously nerfed in the base game of course. Overall, it's about the issue of being overrun and swarmed, which on the biter settings I use, happens very easily. I prefer settings which make the late game a real military challenge. It depends a lot on the settings you play with. Maybe yours are light enough to singlehandedly tackle mid-game nests. Trust me, that is not an option with the enemies I face. If I rush in with any less than twenty sniper turrets, I'll get mowed down in short order.

A rocket launcher with the non-explosive rockets DESTROYS spawners and worms. This thing can one-shot kill early in the game progression. The explosive rockets are great against small, medium, and big biters/spitters. You can just walk around with this thing. If you have the tank, explosive cannon shells are a great all-around threat to the nests, you will burn through a lot of them. The flame thrower is the best weapon against vanilla spawners, small, and medium worms. It literally burns them in seconds. The sniper rifle is great at taking the nest on after you've defeated the initial swarm of defending biters. Then you are effectively one-shot-killing everything, just a slow reload; prioritize the biters and spitters over the spawners. The laser rifle is great against large and giant worms and the elemental spawners; this thing melts them. And my final point, bring follower robots all the time. These things help in so many ways to keep you alive.

The real key is to keep moving, never really stop nor run in a line. Sometimes you have to kite the biters, but you will beat them without turrets. Just keep your mind open and try these, you will find the war fighting much more enjoyable switching weapons and nailing the right shots.

[bobingabout]

I remember playing the old scenarios. when you first encountered big biters, the only way to kill them was with the rocket launcher. Then again, I never had a shotgun.

[BlueTemplar]

Talking about vanilla 0.17, vanilla basic rocket does NOT one shot medium worms, spawners (3 shots, just enough time before the biters are on top of you), and big biters/spitters.
Where did you get the idea that the flamethrower was nerfed ? It's much deadlier than the rocket (but also much shorter range) - they best work together.
Then the landmines are even earlier than rocket, and pretty OP, whether on offense or defense.

Flamethrower basically removes the need for safe spots (as does the car too, even earlier).

[RocketManChronicles]

I remember playing the old scenarios. when you first encountered big biters, the only way to kill them was with the rocket launcher. Then again, I never had a shotgun.

The shotgun is great against trees! LOL Actually, the combat shotgun is effective against big biters and especially against all spitters.

The grenade (a relatively new item; introduced in 0.15[?]) is very effective against large groups of small, medium, and big biters. The splash damage helps bring the numbers down when first approaching a nest.

[bobingabout]

I remember playing the old scenarios. when you first encountered big biters, the only way to kill them was with the rocket launcher. Then again, I never had a shotgun.

The shotgun is great against trees! LOL Actually, the combat shotgun is effective against big biters and especially against all spitters.

The grenade (a relatively new item; introduced in 0.15[?]) is very effective against large groups of small, medium, and big biters. The splash damage helps bring the numbers down when first approaching a nest.

grenade has been around for a while, cluster grenade is pretty new.

[RocketManChronicles]

I remember playing the old scenarios. when you first encountered big biters, the only way to kill them was with the rocket launcher. Then again, I never had a shotgun.

The shotgun is great against trees! LOL Actually, the combat shotgun is effective against big biters and especially against all spitters.

The grenade (a relatively new item; introduced in 0.15[?]) is very effective against large groups of small, medium, and big biters. The splash damage helps bring the numbers down when first approaching a nest.

grenade has been around for a while, cluster grenade is pretty new.

Yeah, that was it, I was thinking of the cluster grenade. That thing is amazing in the mid-game. It really does work on spawners, worms, and swarms of all biters. 10/10 -Would recommend. LOL

[mrvn]

What's the use of the different ires of boilers now?
Re: [0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion


A boiler mk1 consumes 1.8MW of fuel to produce 1,8MW of energy. A boiler mk2 consumes 3.6MW of fuel to produce 3.6MW of energy. So mk2 replaces 2 mk1 of each. But it's far cheaper to build 2 mk1. So unless space is extremely limited this seems like a waste of resources. Where is the efficiency gain the boilers + steam engines had previously?

Or is the pollution level supposed to be the incentive to upgrade boilers now?