[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

[BlueTemplar]

4 trees was enough for me to get to t1 nuclear in terms of both power and intermediates (and I skipped setting up liquid fuel too, only used solid\enriched from overflows as a small additve), and I dont think that trees are THAT rare.

Yeah, I got to blue science on 1 (one) tree (+ 100 windmills, less than start) as power, while I found 5 of them without even meeting any worms...

[mrvn]

KS power's wind power is pretty nice. Beats using solar panels for a starting power source.

Yeah, completely forgot about those. But who uses them beyond start anyways? Can incorporate something simmilar into SeaBlock mod for early game.

The lowest burner generator is admittedly shit. I haven't redone the math for 0.17 but I think KS oil boiler was quite a good scalable power option in the red-green science range? Bob's oil burners are less efficient but more compact which is a fine niche.

IMO if you go with "tiered" theme throughout whole game anyways, adding non-tiered gen while there is already a tiered alternative seems like a bad idea.

Tree farms and solar are the realistic alternatives, or am I forgetting something else?

Normal tree farms are capped by the trees you find. You need some actual wood so you might as will build it and burn the excess but it's not scaleable.

Solar is fine but you need a ton of space which is tedious. And for the night you still need a mixed system or plastic for accumulators. And when you set up petrochem or farming for plastic you could also get fuel oil.

Scaling wood or even liquid is pointless with nuclear loops being a lot more compact and should work even with default kovarex(just would take a lot longer to get it started), and with modded plutonium its a lot easier than that. 4 trees was enough for me to get to t1 nuclear in terms of both power and intermediates (and I skipped setting up liquid fuel too, only used solid\enriched from overflows as a small additve), and I dont think that trees are THAT rare.
As for solar, once again - nuclear solves all.

Or maybe I am too used to always thinking from endgame point of view. My goal is always getting to the last possible upgrade as soon as possible, even if it means skipping some smaller ones, trees into nuclear skipping liquid being prime example. I don't like spending a ton of time upgrading something knowing that soon a new upgrade will be avaliable and I'll have to start over again. Better get to the last one asap.

Right, but nuclear is later. You made a big tree farm, then you made a bunch of naptha and plastic somehow, then you did a lot of other things, then you had nuclear. In between there was a fine section where KS was a good option.

Whether it's part of the speed run strat ideal bootstrap I have no idea, probably not. But it's not useless.

Actually no. I only ever use the initial wind farm. Because there is no other option. After that it's algae and then wood farms. No KS Power.

[raisins]

Right, but nuclear is later. You made a big tree farm, then you made a bunch of naptha and plastic somehow, then you did a lot of other things, then you had nuclear. In between there was a fine section where KS was a good option.

Whether it's part of the speed run strat ideal bootstrap I have no idea, probably not. But it's not useless.

Actually no. I only ever use the initial wind farm. Because there is no other option. After that it's algae and then wood farms. No KS Power.

My point is it's state of the art for a reasonable stretch of tech, which justifies inclusion in the mod pack. It depends when you expand power. On red tech making a big wood power plant lets you ignore power for a while. With green tech you can do the same with a KS oil plant, by the same logic.

Wood farming gets better on green and blue tech, but so does liquid fuel on blue with enriched blocks. Swings and roundabouts.

[mrvn]

Right, but nuclear is later. You made a big tree farm, then you made a bunch of naptha and plastic somehow, then you did a lot of other things, then you had nuclear. In between there was a fine section where KS was a good option.

Whether it's part of the speed run strat ideal bootstrap I have no idea, probably not. But it's not useless.

Actually no. I only ever use the initial wind farm. Because there is no other option. After that it's algae and then wood farms. No KS Power.

My point is it's state of the art for a reasonable stretch of tech, which justifies inclusion in the mod pack. It depends when you expand power. On red tech making a big wood power plant lets you ignore power for a while. With green tech you can do the same with a KS oil plant, by the same logic.

Wood farming gets better on green and blue tech, but so does liquid fuel on blue with enriched blocks. Swings and roundabouts.

But is it worth it? Is KS oil more productive than wood farming? Is it more productive than Bobs liquid fuel burners?

I think one argument was that Bobs liquid fuel makes the KS oil obsolete and just for the wind farms I would find that mod rather pointless.

[raisins]

But is it worth it? Is KS oil more productive than wood farming? Is it more productive than Bobs liquid fuel burners?

I think one argument was that Bobs liquid fuel makes the KS oil obsolete and just for the wind farms I would find that mod rather pointless.

I believe KS is (was?) more productive, but needs steam engines. Bob's oil doesn't but is less efficient. And then if you want to use fuel blocks you need steam engines again.

[BleuGamer]

Bio processing from angel was just updated this morning to 0.17, I believe that's all the mods required? Can't wait to see this updated.

[DreamSmith]

Bio processing from angel was just updated this morning to 0.17, I believe that's all the mods required? Can't wait to see this updated.

I'm sure that Trainwreck will be working on this as soon as he is able. I'm sure that there was a nice annoying link that I could relink for those impatient for updates. Do not forget, the time and effort involved in modding or in game development in general. If I could code stuff I would but I am very well aware that it is outside my skill set, and I appreciate those who can and do well enough not to pester them.

[Trainwreck]

Here's a test version of the pack for 0.17:
SeaBlockPack_0.3.0.zip Edit: outdated, check thread for newer version

It's a straight forward update of the 0.16 version. I've only tested it up to the end of the four startup techs.

Changes:

• Factorio 0.17 update
• Remove change to ScienceCostTweakerM flash fuel recipe
• Reduce enriched fuel block fuel value

[minno]

I'm doing a cheat runthrough to check for deadlocks or anything that seems weird. What I've found so far:

The 0.17 technology screen doesn't appear to show what mods have modified the tech anymore, which makes it harder to tell whose changes are responsible for these.

Mining drills and pumpjacks are enabled. Since vanilla production science packs don't use them anymore, there's no need to keep them around for people who aren't using SCT. The Gas & Oil Extraction tech also unlocks pumpjacks, so you can remove the recipe from there too.

Military tech doesn't require blue science anymore, at least with the default mod settings. Was that something you wanted to make it harder to get sniper turrets and blasting charges?

Molten manganese and manganese plates have no use. The ingots can be used to make other molten metals, but everything beyond that can be removed.

The coal liquefaction tech is still there, but with no effects and no techs that depend on it.



Things that are probably other mods' issues:

The arboretum techs from Angel's Bio are getting "unknown key" name errors.

Hovering over the fluid handling tech makes the screen go black, probably because of the high number of fluids and having all of their barreling recipes listed there. Not sure what anybody can do about this. Maybe move each barreling recipe to the tech that unlocks the fluid instead?

The distillery building from Bob's Assembling Machines is disabled, but the upgraded versions 2-5 can be unlocked through their techs. They also don't appear to have any recipes to use.

The lubricant tech has no effects, since the recipe is being unlocked by oil processing.

Resin 3 only requires blue science, but one of the techs it depends on requires yellow science. Same with rocketry (red/green/mil) requiring rocket fuel (red/green/blue/yellow).



I didn't find any deadlocks in the tech tree.

[Blokus]

Military tech doesn't require blue science anymore, at least with the default mod settings. Was that something you wanted to make it harder to get sniper turrets and blasting charges?

I would assume that this is a change in SCT (due to this feature of SCT being sort of absorbed into vanilla), not Sea Block. Hopefully Trainwreck will comment (perhaps Trainwreck does indeed want sniper turrets/blasting charges gated behind blue).

Hovering over the fluid handling tech makes the screen go black, probably because of the high number of fluids and having all of their barreling recipes listed there. Not sure what anybody can do about this. Maybe move each barreling recipe to the tech that unlocks the fluid instead?

Most likely the "furnace style barreling" option should just be default, though again that's not Trainwreck's problem. If you toggle it the other way, hopefully you know what you're getting yourself into.

Molten manganese and manganese plates have no use. The ingots can be used to make other molten metals, but everything beyond that can be removed.

Again that's not Trainwreck's problem. As far as I know those recipes are actually added to Angel's dynamically anyway, so it would require a hack to remove them.

(If it's not obvious from the text, this is meant to be understood with a neutral tone, not as putting down your post.)

[minno]

Yes, there's a mod setting in SCT that changes whether or not military tech requires blue. It defaults to not having it, but I think in the 0.16 pack it defaulted to having it. If this mod pack is better balanced with that setting turned on, I think there's a way for the Sea Block mod to force that setting to a certain value.

[Blokus]

Yes, there's a mod setting in SCT that changes whether or not military tech requires blue. It defaults to not having it, but I think in the 0.16 pack it defaulted to having it. If this mod pack is better balanced with that setting turned on, I think there's a way for the Sea Block mod to force that setting to a certain value.

Black does require blue in 0.16 SCT and as far as I know there's no config option to reverse that. But yeah, if it's a config option in SCT then it can probably be set in the defaults of A Sea Block Config.

[mexmer]

Yes, there's a mod setting in SCT that changes whether or not military tech requires blue. It defaults to not having it, but I think in the 0.16 pack it defaulted to having it. If this mod pack is better balanced with that setting turned on, I think there's a way for the Sea Block mod to force that setting to a certain value.

in 0.16 indeed military default was t3 (blue science), but due changes not only in technology itself, but also in polution and bitter evo i've decided to change default to T2 (green science) for 0.17

there is no migration for this change, but you can change it in mod settings.

[Tide]

So this is a bit of an overlap between Seablock, angels bio and bobs power.

So charcoal was changed from 6 per wood brick @ 5MJ to 12 per brick at 2.5MJ, ostensibly the same potential energy, but since boilers now run at 100% efficiency (and it seems as though bob has no plans to artificially introduce efficiency) the effective output of arboretums has more or less doubled. Is this intended?

[rain9441]

I was able to load end-game post space-x save from 0.16 in 0.17.

Looks like inserter overhaul and belt overhaul mod settings are checked which makes all of the inserters/belts have different recipes. Unsure if intended.
The fuel value of charcoal, as others have pointed out, is possibly twice as much as it should be.
All of the pipes are shorter... Someone said brass pipes are 1 shorter... I just wanted to be sad; that is bob's domain I'm guessing.

Spacex costs are a little out of proportion. There are 2 unresearched space-x techs for me. One requires 2 million r/g/b/y science, the other 2 million r/g/b/p science. It's not really feasible to get 2 million of each science in seablock for most people so there looks to be a mistake there. Previous requirements were 100k yellow/purple for the late game techs.

Not sure about the enriched fuel block nerf. According to Tsubodai, he said that his 100mw enriched fuel farm based power plant is now only yielding 14 mw using enriched fuel but yields 35mw when using oil burners. Since oil burners is green science and enriched fuel is blue science I believe it makes more sense to have it be a bump up from oil burners. Farm based power is pretty much in the era of construction bots so nerfing farm power that hard effectively just makes people drop 10 more of the same blueprint - nobody is actually going to dedicate more thought to power, just stamp more blueprints. IDK if oil burners is really enough to hold people over until they hit nuclear.

Speaking of nuclear, the plutonium reprocessing techs are purple science and only takes 550 r/g/b/p science to research. It used to be 1500 r/g/b/p IIRC to get a usable nuclear build. Unsure if that was changed on purpose or a miss. Furthermore, it is worth noting that the first tech after nuclear allows for indefinite nuclear power with minimal required additional mining (u235 -> plutonium loop is self sustaining). This is also new, and seems to be less challenging/less interesting than the 0.16 version. We're all for the cheaper cost because you can't actually run nuclear in seablock effectively without the purple tech but not sure about the simplified version of plutonium reprocessing.

Black science no long requires blue science - again a possible mod setting miss here. A couple of people are thinking you just forgot to include the mod settings file.

Thanks for the updates trainwreck!

[Tias]

The cellulose fibre from green algea recipe gets unlocked at brown algea processing. That's a mistake/bug right?

[Zavian]

Molten manganese and manganese plates have no use. The ingots can be used to make other molten metals, but everything beyond that can be removed.

Personally I think in cases like that they should be left in, in case someone adds another mod that needs them.

[cyb3r]

Incompatible with ShinyBobGFX mod

Code: Select all

  14.865 Error AtlasSystem.cpp:1206: The given sprite rectangle (left_top=0x0, right_bottom=128x128) is outside the actual sprite size (left_top=0x0, right_bottom=32x32).
Sprite name: __ShinyBobGFX__/graphics/icons/circuits/basic-circuit-board.png.
If this is being used as an icon you may need to define the icon_size property.: __ShinyBobGFX__/graphics/icons/circuits/basic-circuit-board.png

Bob updated this icon to 128x128px, so you did the same

Code: Select all

{
  type = "tool",
  name = "sb-basic-circuit-board-tool",
  localised_name = {"item-name.basic-circuit-board"},
  icon = "__bobelectronics__/graphics/icons/basic-circuit-board.png",
  icon_size = 128,
  flags = {"hidden"},
  stack_size = 100,
  durability = 1
},

but in ShinyBobGFX it's still 32x32

Code: Select all

   if data.raw.item["basic-circuit-board"] then 
		data.raw.item["basic-circuit-board"].icon = "__ShinyBobGFX__/graphics/icons/circuits/basic-circuit-board.png" 
		data.raw.item["basic-circuit-board"].icon_size = 32 end

Change icon_size to 32 in prototypes\technology.lua makes game work, but it's dirty hack

[mexmer]

Incompatible with ShinyBobGFX mod

Code: Select all

  14.865 Error AtlasSystem.cpp:1206: The given sprite rectangle (left_top=0x0, right_bottom=128x128) is outside the actual sprite size (left_top=0x0, right_bottom=32x32).
Sprite name: __ShinyBobGFX__/graphics/icons/circuits/basic-circuit-board.png.
If this is being used as an icon you may need to define the icon_size property.: __ShinyBobGFX__/graphics/icons/circuits/basic-circuit-board.png

Bob updated this icon to 128x128px, so you did the same

Code: Select all

{
  type = "tool",
  name = "sb-basic-circuit-board-tool",
  localised_name = {"item-name.basic-circuit-board"},
  icon = "__bobelectronics__/graphics/icons/basic-circuit-board.png",
  icon_size = 128,
  flags = {"hidden"},
  stack_size = 100,
  durability = 1
},

but in ShinyBobGFX it's still 32x32

Code: Select all

   if data.raw.item["basic-circuit-board"] then 
		data.raw.item["basic-circuit-board"].icon = "__ShinyBobGFX__/graphics/icons/circuits/basic-circuit-board.png" 
		data.raw.item["basic-circuit-board"].icon_size = 32 end

Change icon_size to 32 in prototypes\technology.lua makes game work, but it's dirty hack

it's not dirty hack, it's how it should be done.

when you replace icon graphic, you should also specify icon size, because current icon might be different, so you set size to ensure proper size and placement into correct atlas.

problem is, that people usually don't follow this general rule in mods, when replacing icons, because they expect it to be always same size. but even in basegame new icons are 64x64 while old icons are 32x32 and technology icons (old and new) are 128x128

of course, you can use 128x128 for technology/recipe/entity if you want, game will scale it properly, only thing you need is to set correct size of icon.

[lukfugl]

I tried starting up a game with the preliminary 0.17 mod pack, but ran into an issue with power generation where "Wood Bricks cannot be smelted". FNEI still shows the Wood Bricks -> Charcoal recipe, my own crafting tab shows it (though not hand craftable, of course), but the furnace won't accept the bricks.