[posila] [0.17.1] Flamethrower turret aiming incorrectly

[Acid_Burn9]

I don't see it. Please edit your screenshot to highlight it?

[Ranakastrasz]

I don't see the issue range violation there. The center of the flame patch is on the edge, and it's AOE expanded to hit the other turrets.

[Acid_Burn9]

I don't see the issue range violation there. The center of the flame patch is on the edge, and it's AOE expanded to hit the other turrets.

Weren't flame turrets designed to be in one line with other turrets? They even were made 3x2 for convenient pipe connection, when they are in this line. So if they damage turrets, that are in same line with them - they are clearly not working as intended.

[Ranakastrasz]

Weren't flame turrets designed to be in one line with other turrets? They even were made 3x2 for convenient pipe connection, when they are in this line. So if they damage turrets, that are in same line with them - they are clearly not working as intended.

Yea, I'm just point out that technically speaking it is working as intended, but the intended is wrong.
The minimum range at maximum angle left or right, plus the flame AOE is enough to damage nearby turrets. This, obviously should not be the case.

I was just trying to figure out if it was violating the actual, displayed range. I mean, throw a grenade at max range. It will damage things outside of the range because of it's AOE, but you still can't throw it further than max range. I couldn't tell if it was just that at minimum range it caused problems, or if it was actually ignoring the minimum range/angle because of target leading.

[Acid_Burn9]

Weren't flame turrets designed to be in one line with other turrets? They even were made 3x2 for convenient pipe connection, when they are in this line. So if they damage turrets, that are in same line with them - they are clearly not working as intended.

Yea, I'm just point out that technically speaking it is working as intended, but the intended is wrong.
The minimum range at maximum angle left or right, plus the flame AOE is enough to damage nearby turrets. This, obviously should not be the case.

I was just trying to figure out if it was violating the actual, displayed range. I mean, throw a grenade at max range. It will damage things outside of the range because of it's AOE, but you still can't throw it further than max range. I couldn't tell if it was just that at minimum range it caused problems, or if it was actually ignoring the minimum range/angle because of target leading.

Well. Maybe you are right. But the issue remains. So all we can do is wait for fix now.

[BlueTemplar]

I don't see the issue range violation there. The center of the flame patch is on the edge, and it's AOE expanded to hit the other turrets.

Weren't flame turrets designed to be in one line with other turrets? They even were made 3x2 for convenient pipe connection, when they are in this line. So if they damage turrets, that are in same line with them - they are clearly not working as intended.

Hmm, I've never tried doing it (EDIT : and packing them so densely, my screenshot is actually an outlier), but I see what you mean. But only the developers would know...

[CobaltBlue]

I think the problem is that it's predicting the biters will be at the location past the wall (as if there is no wall) and fires before any collision is detected with the outer wall. I don't think there is any range violation.

[posila]

Can you upload your saves, please? I am going to disable target leading for flamethrower turrets for 0.17.3, but your saves will be helpfull when researching how to make it better.

[Acid_Burn9]

Can you upload your saves, please? I am going to disable target leading for flamethrower turrets for 0.17.3, but your saves will be helpfull when researching how to make it better.

Here is my save (cant upload here files bigger, than 15MB). Most intense attacks happening in top left corner of the map and a bit lower.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/96117twfxd2h4 ... 5.zip?dl=0
Here is wall blueprint

0eNqdm01u40YQha8ScE1OWP1L6irBYCDbjIYARQkUlRnD8AmyDbLNKbIKkjMoNwplT2R5XM/sx9X4B/xc1f1UrHrd85DddMdmP7T9mK0esvZ21x+y1U8P2aHd9Ovu/LPxft9kq6wdm22WZ/16e/7uMO76pviy7rrsMc/a/q75mq3kMZ99sFsfmqEYj8PQjFePmoRHf+6mf8fPw+6LRrAJhGHdXsfrHj/mWdOP7dg2z1k/fXP/qT9ub5phSujVk8U3ep7td4fpmV1//kMTpxD/wefZ/fmr6oN/PEfyHclcrdzE2nwei6dgFJb7n6Rx7IVz026Kpmtux6G9Lfa7rtFY8o1VayyXHFP1XkieCSm+F1DQVfIGIuUlnjy7a4fpLz790ijMeGHu231TjLtiM+yO/Z1ClblNrFLjs++tV619iN4yXiQV9WjOq5ACCnNpibAgFJFhU0MRWf7jElQQr3Gd8yLyzbHHGy8XyKwwJbBq0iOL7OYFsOYVC/IARAscgEzJgkBqRng5ORVkaDnpHMvJyc7LyThWTnpkL0LfNnftcTtX0K+qpgOrH9httAAUWRCKiJY6AtUsCKRmS16hRgUJrVCdY9h3scxr1NolL+Ppq9dop6Fp+etpe3ZDBWwoLXoEouu7AaCKjQiBal6rpdp/lrRWdY6QWq3nperMu2PHW7S5LFuZQLfkXtT6VjjHiqMEIFb3KCBa9iigSItMbbZdxWpMx9TUCzuqc1K5oPqBBtkLWe70yc2Qu46isSQHzA/ekepBHE9yUF6BFqHao/vIilDHVIt7M9Bh+5qUkRpXYAdR0KYHdg4FWQV2DEUctkqjvBwtI7U3D56VkY4JVC1z86+zEEkZ6XGxXTloygPblIOePLLjJ+IIyQF5Rd5DVHvcuNBDVFm0v6KHtMhDVEmsh2heyztozEUeYsrUEllHUV892nAB9iYreDAgVGwdRxy2PUF50W6iOmZUrNZ1iucEWs7rswoL9An67oos5XqObCVHwZCVHGBqVteIQxZyhKHruPqpry0pR53imGbAzPcCtecEpEdFjpGggNSkdwLqR03KGUVDlmlBxz60V+h0DmsVAoxhFOQTDkZKy0kIxOWWTksWLTxpkkAOqW7IIeXtEId0BiGHNgb1Ey1hfUGAIW3BmCDNqxPO5FdtSOkERUjRg5xJBwUd4QnpoKAzRQmcRGE8pNRhPBUr0Urn1KREdczVCWeSRBOMa7k67OSc6yoFTrbk8KIAaa2gewKG1DuMhyztMB7aMdSPNMSwliHiVMzbOeUQTwxpGoLI7AI7vEbXRcjOHJ06iCWtQxgQ6YhDDnnAgxPztDCNDgqsMAGHHDQRZrEnjo43xZJTJzq5FUfOnRhEGiowNUfKG4NoS0W/biKONVUQh7qgJQmmtjjyghaKjB1CUbvvyDYdXVoRxwocgTwrcJSapy9ooWt6Zom3LVGHsQ4LCsolXiO+LHjayOAXuOYoVdI2T7rg6Bf45qmpk8Y52hn2k4DmisB+EtCgE9hOBkZEdurPEX3Mn2/Mr67+W0A+LfFN000/O/1x+uf01+nvf389/fnD6fcfT79Nv/ylGQ5PvGjLqQxHL+U07PwH166gMg==

After discussion up there i think its better to rework flame turret range, or do something like

Code: Select all

if{no.player.build.sctructures.here=true}[shoot.here=true]

(Make turret unable to shoot within some range from allied buildings at all.)

[BlueTemplar]

Leaving target leading in, but increasing the turret minimum range by 1-2* tiles should work too for 1-layered lines of turrets.**

*2 tiles if you want for the player to safely walk in a tile left between the turret and the wall.

**flame turret pushing (in the form of "bunny-hopping") is still likely to be pretty hard/risky... but perhaps it *should* be ?

[credomane]

Can you upload your saves, please? I am going to disable target leading for flamethrower turrets for 0.17.3, but your saves will be helpfull when researching how to make it better.

Still lead the target but check that the firing position is within the turret's aiming box. If it isn't snap it to the nearest point along the line between biter and the "bad" firing position that is inside the aiming box. Or be lazy and snap it to the closest point inside aiming area.

My base is gonna need some serious flame turret rework. I have my turrets spaced a ways back so they cover a lot of the wall. With this target leading mine are gonna take out everything. Even if target leading was in the aiming box. lol.

[Ranakastrasz]

Still lead the target but check that the firing position is within the turret's aiming box. If it isn't snap it to the nearest point along the line between biter and the "bad" firing position that is inside the aiming box. Or be lazy and snap it to the closest point inside aiming area.

My base is gonna need some serious flame turret rework. I have my turrets spaced a ways back so they cover a lot of the wall. With this target leading mine are gonna take out everything. Even if target leading was in the aiming box. lol.

Pretty sure we established that it never violated the aim box, just that the aim box was always too close to the turret.

Just increase the minimum range by like 3 tiles. That ought to fix most of it.
Or else aim leading should take into account walls/obstacles, but that might be expensive.

[pistols39]

this is an interesting topic.

i agree that adding logic to detect outer defense is OTT.

Is aim leading really necessary? i thought the fact that flame turrets were slightly behind the first biter(s) were to balance them out. if they can predict where biters are going to be then is this too overpowering? it would be interesting to understand the reason for it's inclusion.

[Ranakastrasz]

this is an interesting topic.

i agree that adding logic to detect outer defense is OTT.

Is aim leading really necessary? i thought the fact that flame turrets were slightly behind the first biter(s) were to balance them out. if they can predict where biters are going to be then is this too overpowering? it would be interesting to understand the reason for it's inclusion.

Probably because its a stream weapon like the new spitters, so it made sense to have it lead it's targets too.

Also, having it intentionally miss, or not even try would be kinda sad.

[BlueTemplar]

Well, it's not like they didn't work pretty well in 0.16 without the leading...

Is aim leading really necessary? i thought the fact that flame turrets were slightly behind the first biter(s) were to balance them out. if they can predict where biters are going to be then is this too overpowering? it would be interesting to understand the reason for it's inclusion.

I agree that it's worth considering.
0.17 Fire leading makes them less distinct from instant shot Gun/Laser (and homing shot 0.16 Laser)...

(Artillery being kind of in a category of its own? Does it even fire on biters/spitters ?)

[Ranakastrasz]

Well, it's not like they didn't work pretty well in 0.16 without the leading...

Is aim leading really necessary? i thought the fact that flame turrets were slightly behind the first biter(s) were to balance them out. if they can predict where biters are going to be then is this too overpowering? it would be interesting to understand the reason for it's inclusion.

I agree that it's worth considering.
0.17 Fire leading makes them less distinct from instant shot Gun/Laser (and homing shot 0.16 Laser)...

(Artillery being kind of in a category of its own? Does it even fire on biters/spitters ?)

Artillery does not automatically fire on mobile forces. Just spawners or worms in it's "Short" range. And probably structures for multiplayer, but i've never seen that myself.

[BlueTemplar]

Oh, right, it only autofires on the expansion parties once they start morphing into buildings...

[Acid_Burn9]

Oh, right, it only autofires on the expansion parties once they start morphing into buildings...

Yup. Artillery auto-targeting works only on spawners and worms.

[tecxx]

side question: my landmines are all dying in fire now. is this new/intended, i don't remember this from 0.16? i noticed that my robots are replacing them, but they get destroyed immediately, sending the robot in a loop. that definitely wasn't the case two days ago.....

[Azzinoth]

The center of the flame patch is on the edge, and it's AOE expanded to hit the other turrets.

From the screenshots you can easily see thats exactly the problem. If the flamethrower is aiming at a point P on the edge of the target area then it can also damage stuff at a maximum distance r outside of the target area, where r is the AOE/splash-radius of the fire. However the player expects stuff outside of the target area to be safe. The easiest fix is probably to make the actual internal target area by r smaller on all sides, than the shown area. That way the turret shows a damage area, rather than a target area. If you don't want to make the range of the turret smaller compared to 0.16, you can compensate by increasing the maximum range by r, but not the minimum range.