Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by V453000 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm

Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Bilka » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm

V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Optera » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:58 pm


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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:46 pm

I've been using Bob's for so long that wasn't fully aware that vanilla vehicles didn't have equipment grids. Just kind of an "Oh yeah..." moment despite the fact that I was remembering it at a brain level when lamenting the fate of the vanilla tank according to the latest update.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by dog80 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:20 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:25 am
The reason to use the tank gun instead of your gun is obvious: You're in the tank.

Even with the 100% bonus, I never used the tank because of the machine gun. I used the machine gun because I was in the tank. And I used the tank to run over bases and worms. If they haven't nerfed that, they haven't nerfed the tank.
in biterbattle scenario destroyed biter bases spawn a huge amount of the corresponding biters, so you will find youself surrounded by a dozen of blue melee biters that arent so easy to drive over, actually this is not possible. this fixed the abusing of driving over enemies bases sufficiently on my opinion - in vanilla though this is a excellent way of destroying the bases i agree

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by astroshak » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 am

Not going to speak towards mods, but just plain old Vanilla, I never found the Tank to be squishy.

Load the thing up with Solid Fuel, and its fast enough to outrun many Biters. Yes, the MG being nerfed will hurt, but its not hard to just drive around shooting spawners with the MG (or Cannon, or Flamethrower) in circles, kiting the biters and spitters along, killing them after the spawners are all squished.

Ramming the spawners with the tank, attempting to run over biters/spitters with the tank, are newbie mistakes. Its not a ram, its a protective coating that doesn't steer the way your character does. After clearing out some stuff, hop out and repair. Then hop back in and clear more enemies off the map.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:24 am

astroshak wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 am
Not going to speak towards mods, but just plain old Vanilla, I never found the Tank to be squishy.
I rest my case :lol: (To each his own opinion and experience of the tank, I'm just happy there's someone who seems to know what a Smash 4 jigglypuff is.)
Ramming the spawners with the tank, attempting to run over biters/spitters with the tank, are newbie mistakes. Its not a ram, its a protective coating that doesn't steer the way your character does. After clearing out some stuff, hop out and repair. Then hop back in and clear more enemies off the map.
My experience has always been that ramming the spawners has been the most cost-effective and easiest way to use the tank against spawners. Using the cannon was the newbie mistake, because it's too slow firing to do a good job, and the MG is shooting the biters. Damage from ramming spawners has never been much of a problem for me, it's the stampede that comes afterwards, and I need turrets set up nearby to deal with that, and even more without the damage bonus on the MG. I really don't see any point in using the tank at all under these circumstances.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Jap2.0 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 am

Bilka wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
Okay, we have two devs saying they want it. It's already in the game to the extent that it can easily be used by mods. We better get this in vanilla.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:48 am

astroshak wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 am
Ramming the spawners with the tank, attempting to run over biters/spitters with the tank, are newbie mistakes. Its not a ram, its a protective coating that doesn't steer the way your character does. After clearing out some stuff, hop out and repair. Then hop back in and clear more enemies off the map.
Biters sure, but this newbie has been ramming spawners and worms with the tank at every opportunity for over 600 hours of gameplay and sees no reason to stop.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Zavian » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:15 am

Jap2.0 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 am
Bilka wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
Okay, we have two devs saying they want it. It's already in the game to the extent that it can easily be used by mods. We better get this in vanilla.
Whilst it sounds great (and hence I also want it), I suspect it will probably be overpowered unless the grid is really tiny.

4x4 would probably work. Too small for a fusion generator to be useful, so you would probably go with one shield, a battery and the rest personal solar panels. That would give players some place to use any PSP they crafted earlier. 4x6 might also work.
Last edited by Zavian on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Tricorius » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:16 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:48 am
astroshak wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 am
Ramming the spawners with the tank, attempting to run over biters/spitters with the tank, are newbie mistakes. Its not a ram, its a protective coating that doesn't steer the way your character does. After clearing out some stuff, hop out and repair. Then hop back in and clear more enemies off the map.
Biters sure, but this newbie has been ramming spawners and worms with the tank at every opportunity for over 600 hours of gameplay and sees no reason to stop.
Agreed. One of my favorite things is plowing through a nest of worms and spawners. :) I usually bug out eventually and use the circular kiting method, but I also try to dive back in as long as health is reasonable and make a few more mowing runs before retreating to machine gun all the biters down.

I do occasionally try shells for the tank. And I have to admit exploding shells are pretty fun and seem to take advantage of fire damage weaknesses. ;) I also like cluster grenades. Sometimes tossing them out of the tank. ;) I wonder if this will become a better strategy for cleaning up groups of trailing biters after the machine gun damage reduction.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by SirLANsalot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 am

If you used the tank for the MG, then you were using the tank all kinds of wrong.

You use the tank for the damn cannon, with explosive shells and enough upgrades you can wipe out a base in 1 or 2 shots in most cases. Only then needing to use the MG for mop up. Add in the fact that your personal defense lasers still work while inside the tank, and you just need the cannon turret only after that. Since the PDL will clean up any biters that spawned.

The tank isn't nerfed, more like the MG was bugged or inadvertently buffed to deal double damage. Using the MG to kill bases is a waste of bullets anyways.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by jodokus31 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 am
Bilka wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
Okay, we have two devs saying they want it. It's already in the game to the extent that it can easily be used by mods. We better get this in vanilla.
This is probably off topic here. But I would also suggest a vehicle roboport, also for trainwagons. I really enjoy angels industries with the crawler trains and vehicles.

To the topic:
I never used anything else in the tank other than the MG. Its probably interesting to have an incentive to use the shells. The tank may be weak in endgame, but its also a lot of fun and offers a break from the planning and building phases.
Having a shield in the tank could be nice.
SirLANsalot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 am
If you used the tank for the MG, then you were using the tank all kinds of wrong.
It was very effective, so its nothing wrong with that. Probably, now it is better to use shells

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Zavian » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:12 pm

jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 am
Bilka wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
Okay, we have two devs saying they want it. It's already in the game to the extent that it can easily be used by mods. We better get this in vanilla.
This is probably off topic here. But I would also suggest a vehicle roboport, also for trainwagons. I really enjoy angels industries with the crawler trains and vehicles.
Well if they add a vehicle grid to tanks, then I expect that you will be able to add personal roboports to the tank. (I'm not expecting to get vehicle grids in vanilla trains though).

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by AmbulatoryCortex » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:43 pm

Zavian wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:15 am
Jap2.0 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 am
Bilka wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
Okay, we have two devs saying they want it. It's already in the game to the extent that it can easily be used by mods. We better get this in vanilla.
Whilst it sounds great (and hence I also want it), I suspect it will probably be overpowered unless the grid is really tiny.

4x4 would probably work. Too small for a fusion generator to be useful, so you would probably go with one shield, a battery and the rest personal solar panels. That would give players some place to use any PSP they crafted earlier. 4x6 might also work.
The entire point of adding a grid is to make it powerful. Why bother adding a grid that's too small to use effectively? Why does the tank have to suck?

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Tricorius » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:53 pm

Zavian wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:12 pm
Well if they add a vehicle grid to tanks, then I expect that you will be able to add personal roboports to the tank. (I'm not expecting to get vehicle grids in vanilla trains though).
Holy balls. Personal roboports in a train engine. Hmmmmm...yet another reason to rethink my “no-mods” preference.

I do love explosive shells and lobbing cluster grenades out of the top hatch of the tank though. Had some fun with that over the holiday break. ;)

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Jap2.0 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:34 pm

Zavian wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:15 am
Jap2.0 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 am
Bilka wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:11 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
Adding the equipment grid to tank would be a lot of fun yeah.
Gimme! :D
Okay, we have two devs saying they want it. It's already in the game to the extent that it can easily be used by mods. We better get this in vanilla.
Whilst it sounds great (and hence I also want it), I suspect it will probably be overpowered unless the grid is really tiny.

4x4 would probably work. Too small for a fusion generator to be useful, so you would probably go with one shield, a battery and the rest personal solar panels. That would give players some place to use any PSP they crafted earlier. 4x6 might also work.
The modules do have a fairly significant cost to them. I'd suggest at least 4x6, hopefully something closer to 6x6. I think having a grid without the space for a fusion reactor is a bit of a shame - the only thing that doesn't really work with it currently is modular armor, and that has two tiers of armor above it. Cargo wagons might work with a smaller grid (as they're fairly low tech and I don't see a ton of uses for an extensive grid in them), as well as cars (because they're slightly less combat-oriented than tanks, and tanks can be considered an upgrade to them). I'm not sure about trains. I do feel like there would be an opportunity to add a few more pieces of equipment specialized towards vehicles, to make more sense and/or be better balanced, and possibly some things that are less combat-oriented, because even though it only occurs in armor right now, it is just an equipment grid, and I feel like it would be possible to add some things that would be useful to vehicles (and possibly yourself!) outside of combat. I'm not entirely sure what - maybe something to increase your inventory size? The obvious parallel for the exoskeleton is something to increase the max. speed of a vehicle (and maybe acceleration, either with or apart from that), but possibly something to allow better turning (in cars and tanks) or better braking speed? I'm not entirely sure where this should go, but I feel there's plenty of opportunity.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by roothorick » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 pm

AmbulatoryCortex wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:11 pm
Making it push biters in addition to damaging them would also greatly help.
This is probably the best solution to make the tank worthwhile. On foot, biters can mob you and pin you down. If the tank could oneshot anything for the sake of keeping moving that'd be entirely too OP. But if instead it pushed biters and spitters out of the way, that's a pretty significant key advantage. Give it defensive upgrades of some form to be able to soak damage from behemoths and you have a proper endgame vehicle.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Koub » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:21 pm

roothorick wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 pm
Give it defensive upgrades of some form to be able to soak damage from behemoths and you have a proper endgame vehicle.
The thing is I'm not sure the tank is meant to be an endgame vehicle. It's available fairly early, and is potent well into the late mid-game. I think the tank should not stand behemoths, for balance sake.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:25 pm

Zavian wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:15 am
Whilst it sounds great (and hence I also want it), I suspect it will probably be overpowered unless the grid is really tiny.

4x4 would probably work.
Not with a submachine gun instead of a 100% bonus one. 4x4 is not enough for me to return to the nerfed tank. Heck even the current tank is not enough for me to bother with most games. 4x6 or 4x8 at least. Remember that it competes with BMA.
SirLANsalot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 am
If you used the tank for the MG, then you were using the tank all kinds of wrong.
Well...
You use the tank for the damn cannon...
You might, but...
The tank isn't nerfed, more like the MG was bugged or inadvertently buffed to deal double damage. Using the MG to kill bases is a waste of bullets anyways.
Me and most everyone I've watched play Factorio tend to run the spawners over and use the MG to deal with the bugs and that last spawner the tank stopped against if applicable. You're the first to mention using the MG against spawners.
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 pm
I never used anything else in the tank other than the MG. Its probably interesting to have an incentive to use the shells.
I'd prefer buffing the cannon to nerfing the MG. In real life, the effective range of a tank's main cannon is ballpark 4000m, while the machine gun maxes out around 600-1000m. So the cannon should have a much greater range IMHO, at least twice that of the MG.

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