Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

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Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Escadin » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:11 pm

They are planning to massively nerf the tank in 0.17.
The tank had a specific issue where the tank Cannon shells would seem weak compared to all the automation and investment you would need to do to get them. Instead you can just put the Piercing rounds magazines in, and especially if you upgraded them, the damage was more than enough. This was majorly influenced by the tank submachine gun having +100% damage bonus. We have removed this bonus in 0.17.
I'm gonna cry wolf on this. Did the tank of all things really need to be made weaker?

The problem with casually cutting the tank's MG damage in half is that what reason remains to use the tank at all instead of your personal smg if they both deal the same damage? Or turrets which still do get a damage bonus?

It seems like most people prefer to do combat on foot already because the tank is difficult (even clunky) to use. It is an out of your way investment and you get little in return:
> Legs + personal shields provide you the same if not better mobility and durability. Turret creep efficiently gets the job done until then.
> High quality fuels make the tank faster but also overly difficult to control due to low break force.
> The ramming and friendly cannon fire turns it into an unnecessary hazard in multiplayer.
> It is made redundant by nukes and artillery later on.


Despite all that tanks have a few perks and this exact 100% damage bonus and the resulting ammo efficiency was the main reason why I have been advocating it's use, even get the fully upgraded cannon on board for what it's worth.
I don't see myself willing to do so in 0.17 any longer, simplified research or not. Yeah perhaps I could craft one tank, hop in and gun down a couple of nests real quick if the MG upgrades are shared. But to set up a cannon shell factory and craft a second set of power armor upgrades for the driver seat? To use it way into late research progress and in favor of combat armor or robots? Doesn't seem worth it anymore.


Additionally....
The other main perk of tanks was having more spare power armor slots for personal laser defenses - which they are going to nerf as well if I understand correctly.

[quote]Personal laser defense is now also influenced by Energy weapon damage upgrades (which also affect Laser turrets), but on the other hand we decreased the base damage it does, and also decreased its power consumption so it is fun to use even with Personal solar panels early on, and if you invest into the Energy weapon damage, it becomes quite good later.[/quote]
PLD have always been affected by laser turret damage research. The only change here is they'll have lower base damage. Less energy is nice for a while but you cannot use a half fusion core and one is enough to power a full armor of PLD.
Last edited by Escadin on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Optera » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:28 pm

As you said, the tank is pathetically underwhelming.
Removing bonus damage from infinite techs for the MG changes little if no one is using it in end game.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Frightning » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:56 am

"what reason remains to use the tank at all instead of your personal smg if they both deal the same damage? Or turrets which still do get a damage bonus?"
#1: Longer range (20 v 18 iirc)
#2: Fire rate (15 v 10 iirc)
#3: It's mobile (unlike turrets, which also have 18 range, not 20)
#4: If I saw right, the Gun Turret's having a separate damage research line is going away.
#5: Tank is a lot sturdier than player is (unless they have a kitted out Power Armor Mk2 with lots of Energy Shields which is more expensive and much higher tech).

If anything, the tank machine gun HAVING that +100% damage bonus invalidated alternatives for much of the game (eventually, maxed out power armor would fair better for durability).

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:27 am

Escadin wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:11 pm

I'm gonna cry wolf on this. Did the tank of all things really need to be made weaker?
Welp, that pretty much makes the vanilla tank completely useless for me. I'll just grab second-tier heavy armor, a rocket launcher for the spawners, and an SMG for the bugs. Thanks for posting this, it would have been pretty annoying to learn of it in the middle my first 0.17 game.

P.S.: Where did you find this? I had assumed you had a quote link, but nope, I can't find any link.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Zavian » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:34 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:27 am
Where did you find this? I had assumed you had a quote link, but nope, I can't find any link.
It's from the latest FFF https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-275

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by 5thHorseman » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:25 am

The reason to use the tank gun instead of your gun is obvious: You're in the tank.

Even with the 100% bonus, I never used the tank because of the machine gun. I used the machine gun because I was in the tank. And I used the tank to run over bases and worms. If they haven't nerfed that, they haven't nerfed the tank.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:38 am

Deathworld much? I doubt it :lol:

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by 5thHorseman » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:16 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:38 am
Deathworld much? I doubt it :lol:
No. Honestly I don't even see why Biters get so much dev time. I'd rather some other - simpler resource drain to expansion.

If I wanted to shoot stuff 24/7 I'd play a shooting game not a building game.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:40 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:16 am
featherwinglove wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:38 am
Deathworld much? I doubt it :lol:
No. Honestly I don't even see why Biters get so much dev time. I'd rather some other - simpler resource drain to expansion.
I prefer something like this or formerly this. Which doesn't really work without axes.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by V453000 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:32 am

It’s not that massive. Piercing rounds with decent upgrades still shred through things, it’s just less ridiculous.

The tank is just a vehicle, and the MG is just one of its weapons, but not the only one. I understand it is most convenient to just drop piercing rounds in the tank and ignore the other options because shells require extra automation of explosives, flamethrower on the tank is quite weak and requires the different-than-gun-turrets ammo you need a chemical plant for, and to get to PLD it takes a while.

Don’t forget that you can also combine the tank with combat robots and grenades at the same time as shooting/hitting stuff. That’s a lot of additional damage.

The tank is still a giant leap forward when you unlock it and feels strong. Late game destroyer capsules, atomic bomb or artillery are better combat solutions anyway.

PLD is definitely not influenced by any upgrades in 0.16 vanilla.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by featherwinglove » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:59 am

V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:32 am
The tank is still a giant leap forward when you unlock it and feels strong.
It doesn't for me. It's already borderline vs. turret crawl and a heavy armor character with a rocket launcher, and I still need to set up defenses anyway. I mean, it's not like I'm going out there for alien artifacts anymore. I'd compare it to the Smash 4 'puff: not quite so weak as to be useless, but weak enough to be controversial, low tier, and abandoned by a few top players who previously ruled with her.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Serenity » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:21 pm

On the one hand it's annoying. On the other hand there is a serious balance issue when the tank's main gun is worse than its support weapon.

Yeah the machine gun is great, but it's really too great. I'm not sure about removing the bonus entirely though. Maybe drastically reducing it would have been fine

And while it's truly that the tank is bad in the end game it's awesome when you get it. What is needed to make it stay competitive a bit longer is some research to improve its armor. Or even better a vehicle grid and modular armor inserts or shields

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Escadin » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm

V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:32 am
The tank is just a vehicle, and the MG is just one of its weapons, but not the only one. I understand it is most convenient to just drop piercing rounds in the tank and ignore the other options because shells require extra automation of explosives, flamethrower on the tank is quite weak and requires the different-than-gun-turrets ammo you need a chemical plant for, and to get to PLD it takes a while.
I think you're missing the point.
The cannon and flamethrower are neither really good nor really bad. I like to use them but they are just not worth making a tank and related factories for because there is barely any margin to be had. You can achieve the same and more with the weapons you produce for defense anyway.
The MG on the other hand clearly is worth the trouble and as such it would encourage me to make that investment. It was good to know I can rely on the MG and occasionally enjoy flamethrower and cannon in their small niche situations where they perform well enough. The cannon for worms abusing range advantage, the flamethrower for fighting those pesky green roadblockers and the MG + grenades for everything else.

With the MG brought down to the no-margin level of every other aspect of the tank there is nothing pulling the weight, nothing that justifies accidentially shooting your allies or the constant battles with it's controls in mountain terrain. In short: nothing that makes it all worthwhile imo. Especially since the tank is suddenly going to struggle against behemoth biters which completely breaks it's long-shot, try hard late game viability.

Perhaps this is due to different map settings or not playing with the 0.17 generator or whatever but the tank absolutely does not feel like a huge leap forward even with the +100% bonus. In my experience it is commonly seen as a barely viable alternative to fighting on foot with personal shields and exolegs or turret creep.
My hope had always been that you would bring it in line with those strategies eventually by adding late game ammo for the cannon and flamethrower comparable to uranium rounds. And now this instead.

I am somewhat sad the tank (and vehicles in general) are only meant to be used as stepping stones during a small time window.

V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:32 am
PLD is definitely not influenced by any upgrades in 0.16 vanilla.
I clearly remember a different tooltip than the one I'm seeing in game right now. Perhaps that was back before 0.15? My bad.
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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by V453000 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:34 pm

Escadin wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:32 am
The tank is just a vehicle, and the MG is just one of its weapons, but not the only one. I understand it is most convenient to just drop piercing rounds in the tank and ignore the other options because shells require extra automation of explosives, flamethrower on the tank is quite weak and requires the different-than-gun-turrets ammo you need a chemical plant for, and to get to PLD it takes a while.
I think you're missing the point.
The cannon and flamethrower are neither really good nor really bad. I like to use them but they are just not worth making a tank and related factories for because there is barely any margin to be had.
I do agree that the basic cannon shells and flamethrower aren't awesome, but the explosive shells are pretty damn powerful, yet still they just pale vs. the +100% piercing rounds.
Escadin wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm
You can achieve the same and more with the weapons you produce for defense anyway.
And that is exactly the issue.
Escadin wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm
With the MG brought down to the no-margin level of every other aspect of the tank there is nothing pulling the weight, nothing that justifies accidentially shooting your allies or the constant battles with it's controls in mountain terrain. In short: nothing that makes it all worthwhile imo. Especially since the tank is suddenly going to struggle against behemoth biters which completely breaks it's long-shot, try hard late game viability.
The MG is still completely usable vs. small-medium biters. When they get big, their resistances are too high for this, but at that stage you should have explosive cannon shells, and little later on even PLD/Distractors. Behemoths are of course a different topic.
Escadin wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm
Perhaps this is due to different map settings or not playing with the 0.17 generator or whatever but the tank absolutely does not feel like a huge leap forward even with the +100% bonus. In my experience it is commonly seen as a barely viable alternative to fighting on foot with personal shields and exolegs or turret creep.
My hope had always been that you would bring it in line with those strategies eventually by adding late game ammo for the cannon and flamethrower comparable to uranium rounds. And now this instead.
I don't know where we disagree on this, but you are suddenly protected in a tank and able to a lot of damage at the same time, all while moving. Laser turret creep may be safe, but I'm not sure if faster, I think it depends on how many nests and how far apart are they.
Escadin wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm
I am somewhat sad the tank (and vehicles in general) are only meant to be used as stepping stones during a small time window.
I didn't test the uranium shells recently much, but I guess that the health of the tank becomes the main problem with behemoths, even if you add destroyer robots... I think this is caused by the power armor mk2 being so much more convenient to walk quickly, though. There's also some progression so I think that's fine. A little later and you have artillery/atomic bomb anyway and you can deal with biters even easier.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Serenity » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:49 pm

V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:34 pm
I didn't test the uranium shells recently much, but I guess that the health of the tank becomes the main problem with behemoths
The tank offers great protection when you get it but suffers from being too squishy later on. Even before behemoths like when going up against gigantic bases. That's exactly why some armor upgrades would be nice

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by orzelek » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:54 pm

Serenity wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:49 pm
V453000 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:34 pm
I didn't test the uranium shells recently much, but I guess that the health of the tank becomes the main problem with behemoths
The tank offers great protection when you get it but suffers from being too squishy later on. Even before behemoths like when going up against gigantic bases. That's exactly why some armor upgrades would be nice
In short: tank needs it own equipment grid with shields. And some additional portable lasers for fun.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by AmbulatoryCortex » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:55 pm

The tank also easily gets stuck and doesn't have a good way to defend itself when it happens. The nerf to the machine gun will make this worse. The tank should have more armor, more crushing power, a real flamethrower instead of the torch, and the main cannon should instagib anything short of a behemoth.

The tank needs buffs, not nerfs.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Kyralessa » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:02 pm

Er...am I the only one who wears Power Armor Mk II packed full of lasers while driving the tank, so I get lasers plus the tank's machine gun?

I don't have to waste any Power Armor slots on shields; I just have one 2x2 roboport so the robots can fix my tank.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by Optera » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:09 pm

A simple buff for the tank would be to make it more of a juggernaut.
Let it drive over trees and small biters without slowing down and taking much damage. That would make tank combat feel distinctly different from the car or power armor combat.

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Re: Did no one else notice massive nerf of tank in 0.17?

Post by AmbulatoryCortex » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:11 pm

Optera wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:09 pm
A simple buff for the tank would be to make it more of a juggernaut.
Let it drive over trees and small biters without slowing down and taking much damage. That would make tank combat feel distinctly different from the car or power armor combat.
Making it push biters in addition to damaging them would also greatly help.

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