Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Regular reports on Factorio development.
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Shanman
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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Shanman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:46 pm

I loved reading this post, it was great to get an insight into the development side of things, and it was really well-written and clear. I had a few thoughts when reading it, and while reading through the thread:

Green science: Adding pipes would up the iron cost from 5.5 to 6.5 per pack. It already has the highest iron:copper ratio out of any science pack and that would just add to the demand. That said, I really do like the idea - the justification is worth the extra iron in my opinion.

Yellow science: Really this is about rocket control units. I see this includes another call for low density structures, and while I like that they have more uses now, players have always had to make more LDS than RCUs for the rocket, in order to make the satellite. Maybe I missed an FFF on this, but do RCUs have more uses as well? I'm certainly not suggesting swapping RCUs for LDSs in the Yellow Science, because obviously that's too blue chip heavy. I do think RCUs could see more use though.

Uranium:
neuromaster wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:32 pm
I'd like to suggest that uranium also be made relevant. As it stands, it's a cool resource that frequently serves little purpose - especially if you're megabasing with solar + biters off.

You've mentioned how some changes are intended to "encourage" the player to try certain things.
Perhaps adding a uranium fuel cell as a prerequisite for High-Tech/Utility or Space Science would encourage players to explore the wonderful world of uranium mining, Kovarex enrichment, and maybe even nuclear power?
I agree with Neuromaster that I do wish uranium had more uses. It's a cool part of the game, and I feel like (because it hasn't had as long to develop) it isn't really at its peak potential. I would say a fuel cell would be a rather high cost for some of the science packs, but I wonder if there isn't room for a little uranium somewhere in the rocket construction process.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by mexmer » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:51 pm

while i like changes, rails are out of place in production. assembler or maybe even solar panel will make more sense. not sure if rails were put there just to make more use of stone, can't imagine other reason for rails in this particular science pack.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Xuhybrid » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:58 pm

The only thing i disagree with is the Production science pack recipe. Why are you forcing me to make 30 of any item per pack (with a stone requirement as well...)? Do you understand how long it's going to take to load? Also, why are you forcing me to make production modules? At least it's only Production 1, but i personally prefer to lower my energy footprint with Efficiency. Why have 3 types if you're going to enforce one type?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by TheRaph » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:03 pm

Thank you great job!
I Like the most changes explained in fff.

But I do not like the Idea of having all 6 ingredients slots free in assembling machine.

I'd hoped you would decide in a different way - but as I see your decision stays. I think a little bit of speedup and some module-slots are not worth of upgrading.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:05 pm

Ooooh, one more thing... Can we get even number of science packs somehow... Because reasons. VERY important reasons.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Zavian » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:07 pm

Avezo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:05 pm
Ooooh, one more thing... Can we get even number of science packs somehow... Because reasons. VERY important reasons.
Just use an even number of assemblers?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:09 pm

Zavian wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:07 pm
Avezo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:05 pm
Ooooh, one more thing... Can we get even number of science packs somehow... Because reasons. VERY important reasons.
Just use an even number of assemblers?
How does that help when there are 7 different science packs in game?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by TheRaph » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:15 pm

Avezo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:05 pm
Ooooh, one more thing... Can we get even number of science packs somehow... Because reasons. VERY important reasons.
If everything is even ... where is the challenge?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by coderpatsy » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm

Shanman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:46 pm
Uranium:
neuromaster wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:32 pm
I'd like to suggest that uranium also be made relevant. As it stands, it's a cool resource that frequently serves little purpose - especially if you're megabasing with solar + biters off.

You've mentioned how some changes are intended to "encourage" the player to try certain things.
Perhaps adding a uranium fuel cell as a prerequisite for High-Tech/Utility or Space Science would encourage players to explore the wonderful world of uranium mining, Kovarex enrichment, and maybe even nuclear power?
I agree with Neuromaster that I do wish uranium had more uses. It's a cool part of the game, and I feel like (because it hasn't had as long to develop) it isn't really at its peak potential. I would say a fuel cell would be a rather high cost for some of the science packs, but I wonder if there isn't room for a little uranium somewhere in the rocket construction process.
If U235 is required then you're gating it behind a really small random chance. It will be frustrating, and doubly so if it's required for rockets (and infinitely more frustrating for speedrunners).

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Zavian » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:21 pm

Avezo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:09 pm
Zavian wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:07 pm
Avezo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:05 pm
Ooooh, one more thing... Can we get even number of science packs somehow... Because reasons. VERY important reasons.
Just use an even number of assemblers?
How does that help when there are 7 different science packs in game?
Ah. I thought you were asking for an even number of packs per cycle. (Some of the new recipes make 3). Not an even number of different science packs.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Shanman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:27 pm

coderpatsy wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:16 pm
Shanman wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:46 pm
Uranium:
neuromaster wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:32 pm
I'd like to suggest that uranium also be made relevant. As it stands, it's a cool resource that frequently serves little purpose - especially if you're megabasing with solar + biters off.

You've mentioned how some changes are intended to "encourage" the player to try certain things.
Perhaps adding a uranium fuel cell as a prerequisite for High-Tech/Utility or Space Science would encourage players to explore the wonderful world of uranium mining, Kovarex enrichment, and maybe even nuclear power?
I agree with Neuromaster that I do wish uranium had more uses. It's a cool part of the game, and I feel like (because it hasn't had as long to develop) it isn't really at its peak potential. I would say a fuel cell would be a rather high cost for some of the science packs, but I wonder if there isn't room for a little uranium somewhere in the rocket construction process.
If U235 is required then you're gating it behind a really small random chance. It will be frustrating, and doubly so if it's required for rockets (and infinitely more frustrating for speedrunners).
I agree for U235 and the rocket, I think that might be a bit much. Though for the satellite, with this victory condition change, maybe not. Regardless, even with nuclear reactors up and running and some uranium ammo production, a single uranium ore patch lasts for ages. Once you've claimed your first you're set for a very long time.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by bobingabout » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:40 pm

I guess it's time for another anurism.

Not only are you renaming the science packs, breaking every mod that adds technology, but you're also using the name "Logistic science pack" which will cause a lot of confusion with the pink Logistic science pack added in Bob's mods for end-game (Production level and up) logistic research.

I didn't even bother reading after that point, I can't handle more bad news right now.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by irbork » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:45 pm

:D 1 - Including pipes in Logistic Science Pack is a great idea.
:D 2 - Replacing Gun Turret in Military Science Pack with Wall is just pure stroke of brilliance.
:D 3 - I understand the reasoning of replacing Electric mining drill with Solid fuel, however I will miss the little push to automate mining drills from current version.
:lol: 4 - Receiving 3 packs of T3 science is just "wicked" and the ingredient changes in the recipes seem well thought and designed.
:) 5 - Weapon upgrades streamlining is acceptable, however as there is not rocket shooting speed research, the cost of rocket silo research should be significantly :!: increased.
:cry: 6 - I do not like the idea of winning the game by launching without satellite. In my opinion it would be much better to not allow rocket launch with no cargo. The time and resource cost of winning the game by launching without satellite will feel out of balance, in my opinion.

I love how the trees are categorized as enemies alongside biters. :twisted:

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by RinDiddy » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:05 pm

Looks like this one is open for feedback so here goes:

All in all I'd say you made everything easier. I do agree with:

- Turrets for Military Packs
- Mining Drills in the Blue Ones
- Rockets to get to the Silo
- Purple ones being expensive but not widely used

To be blunt I think you made things from complex to far too easy. Here's what I think of the above:

- Turrets, Mining Drills. It's not so much the ingredients required so much as it is the quantity. The # of different machines required to get a constant flow of these compared to others is significant. As individual items this makes sense, but when making potions this makes things rather difficult when seeking continuity.

- Rockets. Anything that reduces what things take to get the Silo built in the first place is a good thing. The Silo itself is crazy expensive material wise. I usually start a new game before I even build the Silo.

- Purple-ness. The requirements are fine for this in general except for the Circuits. Steel and brick are far too easy to come by. But at 5 Adv Circuit a pop, this rivals even the Hi_tech potion's requirements when it comes to adv. circuits circuits. There are really only two techs that make a difference for me with this one so it's a "when I get to it" science pack.Plus side though is that you get 2 packs per prod so this one really isn't too bad, more like 2.5 Adv Circuits per pack. Maybe half the requirements and only get 1 science pack instead of two?

- Hi_tech isn't that difficult just time consuming. Only pain here for me is keep the machine fed with regular circuits which it gobbles up like crazy. The processing units are a beast but I do understand why. What you can make with them is very game changing by far compared to anything else.


Not that any of that matters. We'll see how things go. Only thing I really ask is that you guys don't go Disney on us and make this game easy for anybody. What fun would chess be if you could walk in and best a champion first play ever?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by SuperSandro2000 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:07 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:40 pm
I guess it's time for another anurism.

Not only are you renaming the science packs, breaking every mod that adds technology, but you're also using the name "Logistic science pack" which will cause a lot of confusion with the pink Logistic science pack added in Bob's mods for end-game (Production level and up) logistic research.

I didn't even bother reading after that point, I can't handle more bad news right now.
@devs How is the science pack 2 named now internally?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by ManaUser » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:09 pm

A few random thoughts:

I would be against adding pipes to green science. Thinking back to when I first started playing, it already felt like a significant difficulty increase over red science that its two ingredients were each made from multiple parts themselves. Adding a third ingredient seems unnecessary. If you think it should be slightly more expensive, I'd say raise the price to 1 inserter and 2-3 belts.

The crafting time for blue science is too long. I know this hasn't changed; I think it should because it was always weird. All other science packs (except space) take 5, 6 or 7 seconds to craft after taking batch size into account. Blue is freakin' 12, double the average. Why is that necessary?

Like several other people, I'm skeptical of new productivity science recipe. Both the huge number of rails, and to total steel requirement seem like they're going to be a hassle.

I think it's good that stone is getting more use, but I echo the caution expressed by a couple others that you should make sure to increase the amount available on maps if needed. Stone should be abundant, it's rocks. To me it would be immersion-breaking if I ended up in a situation where stone availability became a significant bottleneck. Conversely seeing large deposits sitting around that I never need would feel fine. Again it's rocks, of course it would be common. Mining and transporting stone in quantity could be a challenge, but simply finding enough never should be.
Last edited by ManaUser on Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Mike5000 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:11 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:40 pm
I guess it's time for another anurism.

Not only are you renaming the science packs, breaking every mod that adds technology, but you're also using the name "Logistic science pack" which will cause a lot of confusion with the pink Logistic science pack added in Bob's mods for end-game (Production level and up) logistic research.
The genius of Wube is that Logistics Science has nothing to do with logistics and Chemical Science has nothing to do with chemistry. Trying to figure out what the words mean is an exciting new layer of puzzle solving.

Hi Tech is renamed Utility Science so that newbies will think it comes first. And then they get to wait hours for Yellow Science for logistics chests and personal roboports because Wube hates the idea of anyone starting yet another boring mine with a few clicks when they can do it with a thousand.

This is, after all, a game about using magical beacons and thundering herds of trains to defeat engineering and automation and logic and modders.

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by Avezo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:15 pm

How about replacing gearwheel with pipes in red science pack?

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by SuperSandro2000 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:16 pm

Avezo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:15 pm
How about replacing gearwheel with pipes in red science pack?
Why do you all want to replace gears with pipes!? It is good how it is!

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Re: Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

Post by DanGio » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:29 pm

Wow :)

Good job thinking about all this, and writing the FFF...

I agree with almost everything in this FFF.
"Utility" sounds a bit low-tech to me. I'm used to High-tech.
Pipe in the Logistic Science may be too difficult because of the 3 ingredients ? I remember that automating my first green science setup was difficult, so I'd keep it as it is now, 2 ingredients is perfect for early game.
Last edited by DanGio on Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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