[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

[mexmer]

I am aware that this is the combination of two very unfortunate changes.
a) The problem with SpaceX is the really deadly one, because it changes the science requirements from high to insane. From the code it just seems that the variable researchcost is just set to 10. I have no idea where this comes from - I did not set it anywhere. Hopefully the mod creator sees this, otherwise I have to alert him directly.

b) (@ mexmer) The issues with SCT are rather in the category annoying. Its like *have fun fixing all your science production and spaghetti in a dozen more random compounds*. Changing half of the science recipes is something, that should be done between big version changes. The overall costs did not change a lot and they are absolutely fine. The changes are not explicitely bad, they do not change the overall costs or complexity considerably. They are just exactly the changes I would do regularly if I would really screw with anybody, who updates the version of your mod.
One thing I explicitely dislike is the fact, that all your additional intermediates disallow prod modules. Your recipes often mix in lots of ingredients, that do not profit from prod modules earlier either (raw plates, petrochem products etc). Overall, the profit you can get from prod modules is smaller than in the base game. This is essentially saying: We want you to build even larger ore generation plants. Not very entertaining. A bit more options to profit from your hard-earned modules and scale up UPS-friendly would have been nice.

rebalance of science components was needed, it was not unplanned change, i just didn't have time to do that, but still it's spread over multiple versions of SCT, last major change being introduction of science tree, which i mentioned on mod topic some time ago already.

when 0.16 came out and i started maintaining SCT i didn't have much time, and neither ideas how to rebalanced science packs (although initialy it was not necessary, later it was), but there were lot of changes introduced in angels and bobs mods, and it was needed to change SCT as well, so you might not like it, but everyone has own taste. as i played trough with AB i came to different ideas what needs to be changed (although i had changed even vanilla recipes, because it needed change too)

as for production modules, TBH. production modules, especially bob version (including raw production), is most ridiculous idea ever. you are literally making something from nothing, anyways no production module limit list is still same as uberwaffe defined it i didn't add anything to it, not sure how long you play with SCT, but it's like that probly since 0.13 version of factorio.

as for Space mod cost, mod author explicitly stated, that he increased cost 10x for bobs, because bobs modules are OP, and everyone is using tons of beacons lategame ... so, if you can produce literally thousands of SP per minute, why should cost not increase too? is there any other late game resource sink, except science? there is none.

[karel_evzen]

Just came to say thanks to the author of this mod.

I've been having problems getting back into Factorio, I'd start new games but get bored soon, even the heavily modded ones. This mod has got me hooked - you make progress but making the next step is always a challenge.

I admire your dedication and the time you spend to tweak and balance various mods that make this pack, it's been great so far. My big project right now is to make a flying robot frame, I hope I can manage by this evening. Which is funny, normally this takes what, half an hour?

[Lastmerlin]

Prod modules are the games way to allow further investing ressources for benefits at the later game. Of course, they dont make sense from a physical point of view, but from game design perspective, they are brilliant. They allow adding new products at the end of the production tree without forcing the player to invest 90% of the time for new outposts and other repetitions of known content. Without them, any megabase would be 90% miners and smelters. Essentially, they change the ratio of new, interesting and boring, tedious stuff when progressing. The longer the production chains, the more important this effect gets. And they allow UPS efficient scaling up, because they reduce the number of machines a lot.

I did never complete an AB run, just got to equivalent of Red circuits on my one try. But the modules looked indeed really crazy. So if your have access to these modules and if your science consists of mainly intermediates and if your raw ores come high tier miners (which are fast and profit from mining productivity) then I could imagine you could easily outscale vanilla. What Seablock does is: Remove the crazy modules, remove productivity on science intermediates, replace intermediates in science by raw ingredients, remove mining productivity and still scale science by 10.

In my opinion a good balance is achieved, when none of the factory parts (mining, smelting, different intermediates, final products/science) dominates and none is reduced to a tiny fraction. Beeing able to feed huge factories from a single miner is out of place too. Full AB might be off in this regard as well. Vanilla is really well balanced. Current balance Seablock balance is about 60% ore generation, 20% plate generation, 10% petrochem, 10% everything else.

Dont get me wrong: The whole pack was fantastic up to this point, with loads of things to discover and really tough puzzles (geodes are pure crazy). But the endgame is really disappointing. As if someone ran out of ideas and decided to prolonge things by ramping up the numbers instead and block any way to invest to scale up faster.

[minno]

as for Space mod cost, mod author explicitly stated, that he increased cost 10x for bobs, because bobs modules are OP, and everyone is using tons of beacons lategame ... so, if you can produce literally thousands of SP per minute, why should cost not increase too? is there any other late game resource sink, except science? there is none.

The sea block pack disables god modules. The highest tier modules available are only slightly better than vanilla ones. Maybe Trainwreck should undo this 10x change in the mod pack?

[jodokus31]

I recently completed sea block, and I stayed on this version (only because to avoid rebuilding many things)
- ScienceCostTweakerM_0.16.19
- SeaBlock_0.2.7
- SpaceMod_0.3.4

So basically, I had 125k/250k science packs for the FTL techs

I think, it was a tough challenge, but also could have been increased a tiny bit in my opinion
I agree, that from ore generation perspective it was hard on the limit, because i dropped to 45 UPS. Of course, it could have been optimized, because i used steam engines all the way, no solar.

Anyway, it was the best factorio experience for me so far, because I really struggled till the end. Also enjoyed the resource sink of CircuitProcessing. Thanks to Trainwreck for this awesome pack. And thanks to mexmer for maintaining SCT, which adds a wide variety of used materials. And of course to Angel and Bob and all others, who are involved in the mods.

[mrbaggins]

Just updating on my issues with trying to update from Seablock .7 to .11

SCT was the problem causer. To solve:

I had to pick up and destroy all my labs. I had a few different types sitting around. Couldnt load the map if these were present, even in chests.
Then update everything all the way to newest version of mods. This will not currently run.
Then download SCT v.16.26, install that (remove the .34 copy, but keep it safe for later) and load the map. This migrates a bunch of recipes and items like electrum removal.
Then put SCT v16.34 back and load the map. This will migrate the labs up

And now I'm fully up to date. You do need to re-do some of the science / tutorial techs to make some recipes unlock though.

I do have "electromagnetism lab" as a research that has no cost other than time though. Trying to research it does nothing, so that's kind of annoying.

[live22morrow]

I'd say that as it is now, prod modules in Seablock are still incredibly powerful. For the raw ingredient -> base intermediate (ore to plate, slag/geode to plate), Seablock is a good bit better. Vanilla allows productivity at two stages vs Seablocks three. For vanilla, prod modules are used at the ore mining step, and the smelting to plates step. In Seablock, productivity is allowed at the crystallizing to ore step, the sorting step, and the plate casting step. And while the crystallizer and sorting machine allow only 2 and 3 modules each, strand casting allows most plates and such to be made in assembly machines, which allow 6 modules.

In Seablock, electronics require tons of intermediate steps and products, almost all of which can be made in 6 productivity slot assemblers. In all, fully utilizing modules will probably result in around a 90% reduction in raw material demands for black circuits. Since black circuits are the most expensive part of space science, the resources savings are huge. Also, 8 range beacons means that all your productivity boosted machines will have faster crafting and much lower energy use.

If there were a change to make, maybe the final intermediates in the SCT science packs should be able to be productivity boosted. This would put the other science packs on par with space science, where both the intermediate components, and the rocket part (essentially a space science x10) can be productivity boosted.

[mexmer]

Just updating on my issues with trying to update from Seablock .7 to .11

SCT was the problem causer. To solve:

I had to pick up and destroy all my labs. I had a few different types sitting around. Couldnt load the map if these were present, even in chests.
Then update everything all the way to newest version of mods. This will not currently run.
Then download SCT v.16.26, install that (remove the .34 copy, but keep it safe for later) and load the map. This migrates a bunch of recipes and items like electrum removal.
Then put SCT v16.34 back and load the map. This will migrate the labs up

And now I'm fully up to date. You do need to re-do some of the science / tutorial techs to make some recipes unlock though.

I do have "electromagnetism lab" as a research that has no cost other than time though. Trying to research it does nothing, so that's kind of annoying.

electromagnetism lab should not show up in seablock pack, tech is probly enabled, because of migration. on the other side, even with zero cost, it still has research time, so you should be able to research it, and get it green.

as for migration from old saves, that is quite troublesome in general if they are too old, move to lab components was rather big change, same goes for adding science tree, it's not possible to think of every and any change or transformation that needs to be done. game should replay old migration scripts, but sometimes it doesn't do in proper order, although naming is correct. but upgrading in steps (as you did) should work without any major loss of buildings or items or research.

[Lastmerlin]

I'd say that as it is now, prod modules in Seablock are still incredibly powerful. For the raw ingredient -> base intermediate (ore to plate, slag/geode to plate), Seablock is a good bit better. Vanilla allows productivity at two stages vs Seablocks three. For vanilla, prod modules are used at the ore mining step, and the smelting to plates step. In Seablock, productivity is allowed at the crystallizing to ore step, the sorting step, and the plate casting step. And while the crystallizer and sorting machine allow only 2 and 3 modules each, strand casting allows most plates and such to be made in assembly machines, which allow 6 modules.

Oh, this strand casting is really good. I never used it before. So you could be really better, but still nothing that justifies a factor 10 increase. Rather a small remedy for the fact, that ore generation itself is 10 times as big and 100 times as UPS taxing as miners. Geodes are a great puzzle, but after you got it, these are the essential properties and they get really annoying.

In Seablock, electronics require tons of intermediate steps and products, almost all of which can be made in 6 productivity slot assemblers. In all, fully utilizing modules will probably result in around a 90% reduction in raw material demands for black circuits. Since black circuits are the most expensive part of space science, the resources savings are huge. Also, 8 range beacons means that all your productivity boosted machines will have faster crafting and much lower energy use.

You dont need that many black circuits, rather blue ones. In general, the electronics are a small part in costs. Vanilla science is mainly intermediates, but SCT is mainly raw stuff. And these raw ingredients do not allow huge savings. High tech science mainly consists of tungsten and titanium plates (or small variations thereof), these 3 blue circuits are not the problem. What really happens is, that the focus of metals shifts to those, that enter at the late stages of the production process. This is how aluminium and titanium suddenly earn top spots in consumption. You can save 90% of your copper, but way less on Al (reds) and titanium (blues). This is exactly the problem with mixing raw and highly refined components: You get a huge shift in value over time.

If there were a change to make, maybe the final intermediates in the SCT science packs should be able to be productivity boosted. This would put the other science packs on par with space science, where both the intermediate components, and the rocket part (essentially a space science x10) can be productivity boosted.

A really good proposition, that would be already sufficient. Perhaps even better: The identify those components, which consist mainly of raw ingredients and allow only these.

But most important: Get rid of this factor 10 for SpaceX. I can't see any huge savings compared to vanilla, that justifies this. Is there anybody here, who even completed the pack with the new prices? I checked the very popular series of Nilaus on youtube - he had the old ones. Still took hours for the final research.

[BlakeMW]

These seem like pretty good arguments for allowing productivity throughout the science chains. When you think about it, productivity doesn't particularly make setups less complex, to the contrary putting aside bots it can make them more complex because you want to work in beacons which makes space much more constrained.

Probably the only time when productivity doesn't make sense is when a mod has a well thought out alternative productivity mechanism. I agree with Angel's mod not having productivity because as a rule they do provide more productive recipes, whether that is iron plates, plastic or beans there are low tech productive recipes, and then later high tech which might double the productivity.

[mrbaggins]

electromagnetism lab should not show up in seablock pack, tech is probly enabled, because of migration. on the other side, even with zero cost, it still has research time, so you should be able to research it, and get it green.

as for migration from old saves, that is quite troublesome in general if they are too old, move to lab components was rather big change, same goes for adding science tree, it's not possible to think of every and any change or transformation that needs to be done. game should replay old migration scripts, but sometimes it doesn't do in proper order, although naming is correct. but upgrading in steps (as you did) should work without any major loss of buildings or items or research.

Yeah, not sure what i did the first time, but researching that tech just made it vanish quite quickly.

No idea on why it broke, but i had to pick specific versions to make it work out. Ended up downloading six versions all up, but needed a particular 2 to get it up to date.

[mexmer]

electromagnetism lab should not show up in seablock pack, tech is probly enabled, because of migration. on the other side, even with zero cost, it still has research time, so you should be able to research it, and get it green.

as for migration from old saves, that is quite troublesome in general if they are too old, move to lab components was rather big change, same goes for adding science tree, it's not possible to think of every and any change or transformation that needs to be done. game should replay old migration scripts, but sometimes it doesn't do in proper order, although naming is correct. but upgrading in steps (as you did) should work without any major loss of buildings or items or research.

Yeah, not sure what i did the first time, but researching that tech just made it vanish quite quickly.

No idea on why it broke, but i had to pick specific versions to make it work out. Ended up downloading six versions all up, but needed a particular 2 to get it up to date.

when you research it, it should either turn green or vanish, depending on what mod version you play, but combined with seablock it should vanish, still you should have unlocked all electromagnetism lab recipes after that.

[live22morrow]

You can still see the electromagnetism research, but only if you search for it in the tech screen. By default, it should already be unlocked when you start the game. The same goes for wood processing.

[Trainwreck]

Sea block pack 0.2.12 has been released. Check first post for download link.

Update 2018-7-16, version 0.2.12

• Updated SpaceX mod adds FTL Theory D research. Also adds logistics science pack requirement to most SpaceX technologies.

[Lastmerlin]

In other words - making SpaceX even more expensive? Are you aware, that all costs got scaled up by a factor of 10 by a recent update of SpaceX? And that the maintainer of SpaceX voted for reverting this for Seablock (but said, that the Seablock mod pack is responsible for doing that)?

Reference:
viewtopic.php?f=190&t=40288&start=60

[minno]

In other words - making SpaceX even more expensive? Are you aware, that all costs got scaled up by a factor of 10 by a recent update of SpaceX? And that the maintainer of SpaceX voted for reverting this for Seablock (but said, that the Seablock mod pack is responsible for doing that)?

Reference:
viewtopic.php?f=190&t=40288&start=60

Sea Block 0.2.12 also divides the science pack cost of every SpaceX tech by 10, so it does undo the cost increase. It's listed in the mod's changelog.

[Lastmerlin]

If this is true, its excellent news. But I would like a confirmation. By log you mean the messages you get can see after upgrading the mod, right? It would be nice to state it on the starting page of this thread or somewhere else, where you can see it before upgrading. I am not very keen of upgrading any mod versions again, without knowing the effects beforehand. So far, my experience with upgrading any mods mid-run was quite horrible.

[orbadon]

If this is true, its excellent news. But I would like a confirmation. By log you mean the messages you get can see after upgrading the mod, right? It would be nice to state it on the starting page of this thread or somewhere else, where you can see it before upgrading. I am not very keen of upgrading any mod versions again, without knowing the effects beforehand. So far, my experience with upgrading any mods mid-run was quite horrible.

It's as easy as downloading the mod, extracting it and having a look at the changelog.txt

[live22morrow]

The other change i noticed is that Lab MK2 is now in its own technology. I good change imo since the Lab MK2 is definitely a massive enough upgrade to warrant it's own spot on the tree.

[minno]

Ok, I tried doing this on marathon mode (expensive recipes, 4x science cost), but science cost tweaker's expensive recipes are just obscene. It costs 60 iron and 25 copper for four red packs (vs. 2 iron and 1 copper for one on normal), and 774 iron for four green packs (vs. 3 for one on normal). My 90-electrolyzer, 65-MW base was capable of 144 iron plates per minute using only the red technologies, which was about one of each every two minutes.