[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

[jodokus31]

Hello. How do i get sulfur on the beginning? Coal is patched out .... And now? I cant find a way to get it

Checkout the seafloor pump into the washing plant.

[Khaim]

I'm only using about 40 farms to get enough fuel oil, the better farms with advanced technology yield about 10MW fuel value per farm. Less earlier of course, but even ~4MW fuel value per farm is quite impressive. (Basic arboretum produces 4.3MW fuel value if processed as far as charcoal, later this becomes 10.4MW with better wood recipe and processed to charcoal pellets).

I definitely am doing something wrong because I'm not getting nearly that much from my farms. Which crops and farm types are you using? I have a bunch of desert crops because sand is so easy to source (and also the first gardens I found were all desert). I did notice that temperate crops have better (raw) yields, but getting enough soil production just didn't seem worth it.

[BlakeMW]

There are two kinds of recipes, the ones where seeds can be multiplied quickly (like Binafran) and the other where the seeds multiple slowly (like Nilabergine), generally the slow-multiplying crops yield about 3x as much energy per farm (and the seeds don't multiply that slowly in the context of a SeaBlock game), you should use the "Farm with X upgrade" to double the yield. Better recipes allowing converting more of the products into energy, generally the best yields come from pressing pips or nuts into vegetable oil, but the refining yields 30% mineral oil, this can eventually be turned into synth gas which tends to increase energy by +20%.

Basically there are three best energy crops in terms of energy per farm:

Nilabergine (desert) yields 262 Fuel Oil and 100 Synth gas per cycle: ~5.2MW of fuel value per upgraded farm.
Quillnoa (temperate) yields 527 Fuel Oil and 166 Synth gas per cycle: ~10.2MW of fuel value.
Elendilomone (swamp) yields 220 Fuel Oil and 85 Synth gas per cycle: ~4.4MW of fuel value. (it is also a fast-multiplying seeds recipe, only downside is swamp gardens are hard to find)

When using the high yield recipes you can also throw in a couple of speed0 modules, the upgraded farm consumes 200kW, doubling this to 400kW is nothing compared with +40% yield: up to +4MW for Quillnoa. Using better modules is probably a waste, but beacons are definitely worth considering, even going el-cheapo with speed0 modules in basic beacons, you only consume ~3MW extra per farm, while yielding up to ~20MW more fuel value.

[mrbaggins]

Trying to upgrade from I thing 2.7 to 2.11, however trying to load my map gives an error:

Error with migration
ScienceCostTweaker Mod (Mexmer)
16.13.lua

0.16.13.lua:6 attempt to index field 'sct-lab-2' (a nil value)

I'm assuming it's because this is a save with those labs already in place and in use.

The version of SCT I currently have is 16.10.

If I just revert that mod, I get failed to load the Seablock mod, on line 28, attempt to index field "normal" (a nil value).

Can anyone link past versions of the pack so I can make my way up incrementally?

[minno]

I just released the mod I talked about here. It lets you get more ore out of mineral sludge by researching mining productivity. The mod is at https://mods.factorio.com/mod/seablock-mining, and I made a reddit thread for it here that also includes a seed that lets you reach 8 desert trees from the beginning.

[AimMoreBetter]

Is it not possible to barrel used coolant? I do a lot of stuff remotely with bots and this is really strange that I can barrel coolant but not used coolant.

[mrvn]

Hello. How do i get sulfur on the beginning? Coal is patched out .... And now? I cant find a way to get it

Build a washing plant. The first mud water recipe also gives Hydrogen Sulfide.

[mrvn]

Poll: Where do you get your oxygen from for making sulfuric acid?

[ukezi]

Poll: Where do you get your oxygen from for making sulfuric acid?

dirt water electrolysis.

[mexmer]

Poll: Where do you get your oxygen from for making sulfuric acid?

from air

[Lastmerlin]

I played SeaBlock since early 0.16 and updated to the most recent versions of the mods yesterday, because I really needed this Sulfur filtering recipe.

Good news: The sulfur air filtering does exactly what I hoped for and is a very good addition.

Bad news: Almost everything else that I got forced on is really annoying.
All higher science recipes changed. Do you really need to screw this over with each mod version? Introducing big changes with 0.17 would make much more sense. Moreover: None of the changes makes it really more interesting or balanced. Looks like a random additional ingredient or annoying byproduct was added to each intermediate. Things you do if you want even more complexity but have no further ideas how to generate really interesting puzzles. In terms of what SCT should do by its name, it does a worse job: By removing electrum, silver is now almost useless. Bonus: This one science pack that had 1s crafting time (which was a nice variation) is somthing like 10s now. Have fun fitting some extra assemblers in.

The changes to SpaceX are also in the category *pain in the...*. Before the update the first two technologies after the rocket (which is 1000 science) were 3000 and 6000 science packs, which is a nice progression and something you can realistically complete while launching the first 7 satellites. Now its 30k and 60k. Like saying: You should not even start before your end-game science is running. The final researches are now 2M / 1M of each instead of 100K/250K . Thats over 15 hours even at 1k SPM. If you have no other ideas left, perhaps the game is just long enough at over 100 hours and does not need such a stretch. Theoretically, you can just copy your designs, especially in SeaBlock, but these huge geode washing areas and petrochem pipeworks are really UPS taxing. I already see my UPS dipping below 60 (5 years old i7, 16 GB RAM - not the hottest machine, but not that bad either). At a certain point copying does not help your production per real minute anymore. With vanilla this is about 5K SPM for my machine, but here 70% of your base is ore generation, that does not take any prod modules and does not profit from any research. I estimate 1k SPM as limit. So endgame gets *have patience*, *have a really strong computer*, and especially *kill your poor starter base that contains all the good memories and replace by UPS optimized beacon builds*. Disappointing. Somehow I suspect, that SpaceX is balanced against the way stronger original bob modules, instead of the massively nerfed SeaBlock ones.

[BlakeMW]

Poll: Where do you get your oxygen from for making sulfuric acid?

Byproduct of dirt water electrolysis to produce slag, I also use the vast amount of hydrogen to produce synth gas which is ultimately turned into rubber, resin, plastic and naphtha.

[live22morrow]

The changes to SpaceX are also in the category *pain in the...*. Before the update the first two technologies after the rocket (which is 1000 science) were 3000 and 6000 science packs, which is a nice progression and something you can realistically complete while launching the first 7 satellites. Now its 30k and 60k.

You should check your settings. Under the default settings those numbers should be the low ones. Make sure that under A Sea Block Config, ScienceCostTweaker Technology cost multiplier is set to noadjustment, and and all the Space Extension mod multipliers are at 1.

[mexmer]

The changes to SpaceX are also in the category *pain in the...*. Before the update the first two technologies after the rocket (which is 1000 science) were 3000 and 6000 science packs, which is a nice progression and something you can realistically complete while launching the first 7 satellites. Now its 30k and 60k.

You should check your settings. Under the default settings those numbers should be the low ones. Make sure that under A Sea Block Config, ScienceCostTweaker Technology cost multiplier is set to noadjustment, and and all the Space Extension mod multipliers are at 1.

might be he has elder setting, where default was bobs for SCT multiplier, which has lower green/red, 1x for blue, and rest is increased.

not sure about defaults for Space mod

[Khaim]

I just released the mod I talked about here. It lets you get more ore out of mineral sludge by researching mining productivity. The mod is at https://mods.factorio.com/mod/seablock-mining, and I made a reddit thread for it here that also includes a seed that lets you reach 8 desert trees from the beginning.

Gah! I'm too close to the end to throw another mod into the mix. Guess I'll have to start another Seablock game when I'm done.

[Khaim]

Bad news: Almost everything else that I got forced on is really annoying.
All higher science recipes changed. Do you really need to screw this over with each mod version? Introducing big changes with 0.17 would make much more sense. Moreover: None of the changes makes it really more interesting or balanced. Looks like a random additional ingredient or annoying byproduct was added to each intermediate. Things you do if you want even more complexity but have no further ideas how to generate really interesting puzzles. In terms of what SCT should do by its name, it does a worse job: By removing electrum, silver is now almost useless. Bonus: This one science pack that had 1s crafting time (which was a nice variation) is somthing like 10s now. Have fun fitting some extra assemblers in.

I've lost track of exactly which updates I have (Edit: I'm pretty sure I'm on 0.2.8, since I started my game before 6-11 when 0.2.10 came out.) but one tip is to disable the CircuitProcessing mod. I did that early on and never looked back. I think Bob's Electronics already adds a lot of complexity to circuit manufacturing, and it does so in a way that's interesting, with realistic subcomponents and different resource requirements. CircuitProcessing is just more complexity and more resources for the sake of being harder.

I also custom-modded Blue science to use Brass* instead of Gold. I absolutely recommend this change. It makes the early-blue period much more reasonable, and it balances the overall science resource requirements.

*Or Bronze? I always get those confused. The one that isn't used for Grey science.

[mexmer]

I played SeaBlock since early 0.16 and updated to the most recent versions of the mods yesterday, because I really needed this Sulfur filtering recipe.

Good news: The sulfur air filtering does exactly what I hoped for and is a very good addition.

Bad news: Almost everything else that I got forced on is really annoying.
All higher science recipes changed. Do you really need to screw this over with each mod version? Introducing big changes with 0.17 would make much more sense. Moreover: None of the changes makes it really more interesting or balanced. Looks like a random additional ingredient or annoying byproduct was added to each intermediate. Things you do if you want even more complexity but have no further ideas how to generate really interesting puzzles. In terms of what SCT should do by its name, it does a worse job: By removing electrum, silver is now almost useless. Bonus: This one science pack that had 1s crafting time (which was a nice variation) is somthing like 10s now. Have fun fitting some extra assemblers in.

The changes to SpaceX are also in the category *pain in the...*. Before the update the first two technologies after the rocket (which is 1000 science) were 3000 and 6000 science packs, which is a nice progression and something you can realistically complete while launching the first 7 satellites. Now its 30k and 60k. Like saying: You should not even start before your end-game science is running. The final researches are now 2M / 1M of each instead of 100K/250K . Thats over 15 hours even at 1k SPM. If you have no other ideas left, perhaps the game is just long enough at over 100 hours and does not need such a stretch. Theoretically, you can just copy your designs, especially in SeaBlock, but these huge geode washing areas and petrochem pipeworks are really UPS taxing. I already see my UPS dipping below 60 (5 years old i7, 16 GB RAM - not the hottest machine, but not that bad either). At a certain point copying does not help your production per real minute anymore. With vanilla this is about 5K SPM for my machine, but here 70% of your base is ore generation, that does not take any prod modules and does not profit from any research. I estimate 1k SPM as limit. So endgame gets *have patience*, *have a really strong computer*, and especially *kill your poor starter base that contains all the good memories and replace by UPS optimized beacon builds*. Disappointing. Somehow I suspect, that SpaceX is balanced against the way stronger original bob modules, instead of the massively nerfed SeaBlock ones.

electrum was removed by bob, not SCT, and it was announced some months ago by bob, that it will be removed, because it has literally no use.
in SCT electrum was replaced by copper-tungsten, which is same tier metal, not sure where your gold comes from.

brass is used in some places, as for bronze i don't use it in SCT, since with bobs belt inserter overhaul, you need tons of bronze for red inserters and belts.

SCT is not balanced for seablock it's useable with it, but it was balanced primary for AB game (other balance is for vanilla).

As for cost scaling, i suspect you have some old settings prevailing after SCT update, yes i did in general slightly increased costs of late game science packs, but most likely you have either angelbob or other pack scaling enabled, which increases lategame price even more, i didn't touch those, and they are same scale as they were since 0.14 ... but tech price increase you describing (number of SP required) seem to be more likely from space mod multipliers, than from SCT. it should not be that high, unless you play marathon (which is different scale)

bellow are pictures of some science packs default SCT settings with full AB (no seablock or other mods present in seablock)

blue

hightech

production

[Lastmerlin]

Well my mod settings say:

Code: Select all

[b]A Seablock Config:[/b]
SCT cost multiplier: no adjustment

[b]SpaceX:[/b]
Research cost multiplier:1
Production cost  multiplier:1

All this is in the game Startup section, which I cannot change now. I did start the game without change anything in the mod settings. I do not have marathon or anything similar installed. It also worked well until I updated these mods.

Now matter of fact is:
Space Assembly costs 30K (was 3000)
Space Construction costs 60 (was 6000)
All the next techs cost something like 50K+ (was way less as well)
FTL research cost 2M/1M each.

What are the officially intended numbers?

[mexmer]

Well my mod settings say:

Code: Select all

[b]A Seablock Config:[/b]
SCT cost multiplier: no adjustment

[b]SpaceX:[/b]
Research cost multiplier:1
Production cost  multiplier:1

All this is in the game Startup section, which I cannot change now. I did start the game without change anything in the mod settings. I do not have marathon or anything similar installed. It also worked well until I updated these mods.

Now matter of fact is:
Space Assembly costs 30K (was 3000)
Space Construction costs 60 (was 6000)
All the next techs cost something like 50K+ (was way less as well)
FTL research cost 2M/1M each.

What are the officially intended numbers?

you need to ask mod author, i'm not author of space mod, i'm maintaining SCT.

you can just start new sandbox game with seablock disabled and check it up.

you can lookup spacemod changes here
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=40288

but i think, it's spacemod value change, he has extra cost, when bobs mod are present.

Code: Select all

  data:extend(
    {
		{
		type = "technology",
		name = "ftl-theory-D",
		icon = "__SpaceMod__/graphics/technology/ftl.png",	
		icon_size = 64,
		prerequisites = {"ftl-theory-C"},
		unit =
		{
		count = 100000 * researchCost,
		ingredients =
		{
			{"science-pack-1", 2},
			{"science-pack-2", 2},
			{"science-pack-3", 1},
			{"logistic-science-pack", 1},
		},
		time = 120
		},
		order = "k-o-a"
	}
	}
	)

    data.raw.technology["ftl-theory-A"].unit.count = 200000 * researchCost
    data.raw.technology["ftl-theory-B"].unit.count = 200000 * researchCost
    data.raw.technology["ftl-theory-C"].unit.count = 100000 * researchCost
    data.raw.technology["ftl-propulsion"].unit.count = 100000 * researchCost

[Lastmerlin]

I am aware that this is the combination of two very unfortunate changes.
a) The problem with SpaceX is the really deadly one, because it changes the science requirements from high to insane. From the code it just seems that the variable researchcost is just set to 10. I have no idea where this comes from - I did not set it anywhere. Hopefully the mod creator sees this, otherwise I have to alert him directly.

b) (@ mexmer) The issues with SCT are rather in the category annoying. Its like *have fun fixing all your science production and spaghetti in a dozen more random compounds*. Changing half of the science recipes is something, that should be done between big version changes. The overall costs did not change a lot and they are absolutely fine. The changes are not explicitely bad, they do not change the overall costs or complexity considerably. They are just exactly the changes I would do regularly if I would really screw with anybody, who updates the version of your mod.
One thing I explicitely dislike is the fact, that all your additional intermediates disallow prod modules. Your recipes often mix in lots of ingredients, that do not profit from prod modules earlier either (raw plates, petrochem products etc). Overall, the profit you can get from prod modules is smaller than in the base game. This is essentially saying: We want you to build even larger ore generation plants. Not very entertaining. A bit more options to profit from your hard-earned modules and scale up UPS-friendly would have been nice.