[1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10

[NeptuneJr2]

Couple questions,

First of all, is there a reason why the SpaceX hull component (I think that’s what it’s called) requires titanium and low density structure? I was thinking that it would make more sense, and be more complicated if it required the same amount of heat shield plating, added in bobs.

Also, is there a reason why bobs inserter and belt overhaul are not enabled? I really like thoes parts of the mod, and would like to reinable them myself if they won’t cause problems.

I am also not been able to find a way of producing sulfuric acid. The coal washing was removed with the removal of coal. The sodium loop I believe was also gotten rid of, unless I am mistaken, so how can I get sulfuric acid?

Is the best way to get ore still the sulfur/slag loop? Also, what effect did removing nodules have? I just started a game, and never played with nodules enabled.

Thanks for your help!

[jodokus31]

Couple questions,

First of all, is there a reason why the SpaceX hull component (I think that’s what it’s called) requires titanium and low density structure? I was thinking that it would make more sense, and be more complicated if it required the same amount of heat shield plating, added in bobs.

Also, is there a reason why bobs inserter and belt overhaul are not enabled? I really like thoes parts of the mod, and would like to reinable them myself if they won’t cause problems.

I am also not been able to find a way of producing sulfuric acid. The coal washing was removed with the removal of coal. The sodium loop I believe was also gotten rid of, unless I am mistaken, so how can I get sulfuric acid?

Is the best way to get ore still the sulfur/slag loop? Also, what effect did removing nodules have? I just started a game, and never played with nodules enabled.

Thanks for your help!

Regarding Bobs overhauls. I think, that those options must be evaluated, if its not a dead end in seablock, because they may require techs, which are not accessable in the seablock workflow.

Starter Sulfuric acid has a new source in seablock. Washing plants emit a small amount of hydrogen sulfide, which can be turned into sulfur.

Slag is still possible. Nodules not, but another option has shown up: geodes. They can be produced also with washing plants and the processing is a bit more complex. I guess that its more energy efficient, but I did not actually calculate it

[Aboba]

@trainwreck How do you propose we get sulfuric acid in Seablock if not from the Sodium process? The 5 hydrogen sulfide output from Mud would mean literally thousands of Washing machines to sustain my base. There are so many 100% sulfuric acid sinks (Secondary Copper Refining for example) that it needs some sort of dedicated production process.

[abcnever]

@trainwreck How do you propose we get sulfuric acid in Seablock if not from the Sodium process? The 5 hydrogen sulfide output from Mud would mean literally thousands of Washing machines to sustain my base. There are so many 100% sulfuric acid sinks (Secondary Copper Refining for example) that it needs some sort of dedicated production process.

once you get mineral sludge going with charcoal you should have infinite sulfur just from processing the sulfuric waste water alone. i actually removed my washing machines already and just relying on my accumulated sulfur now. I actually had to research warehouse to store my 70k sulfur.

[live22morrow]

With the update, sulfur is now 1:1 with sodium sulfate, so it's viable to get it through bio processing. By getting sodium sulfate through paper recipe, it's not much better energy wise than washing, but it takes much less machines.
You can also get tons of hydrogen sulfide through Catalytic Cracking Acid Gas.
Also, you get a nice return from looping sulfur through Paper Bleaching 3.

[mrvn]

I was using some spreadsheets to calculate my washing to geodes to ore system, and in the "Washing for geodes" recipe, the yields for blue and red it says the yield is 1.5. I was expecting this to mean guaranteed 1 geode + 50% odd of getting the second one, or even 3 geodes every 2 washes, however, it is always 1 geode produced. Is this intended or is a bug?

That's because I might have been a bit stupid when I set it up, looking at the recipe again now:

Code: Select all

		results=
		{
			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=1, probability=1.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-cyan", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-lightgreen", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-purple", amount=1, probability=0.75},
			{type="item", name="geode-red", amount=1, probability=1.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-yellow", amount=1, probability=1},
		},

Yea, i checked the source code and also found this line...
i assume

Code: Select all

results=
		{
			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=1, probability=1},
			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=1, probability=0.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-cyan", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-lightgreen", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-purple", amount=1, probability=0.75},
			{type="item", name="geode-red", amount=1, probability=1},
			{type="item", name="geode-red", amount=1, probability=0.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-yellow", amount=1, probability=1},
		}

would fix it, right?
kinda like how the seed duplication works?

Thank you for the quick response, Angel

That will break helmod. Recipes with duplicate products cause an exception.

Wouldn't it be better to use this?

Code: Select all

			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=2, probability=0.75},

[mrvn]

@trainwreck How do you propose we get sulfuric acid in Seablock if not from the Sodium process? The 5 hydrogen sulfide output from Mud would mean literally thousands of Washing machines to sustain my base. There are so many 100% sulfuric acid sinks (Secondary Copper Refining for example) that it needs some sort of dedicated production process.

once you get mineral sludge going with charcoal you should have infinite sulfur just from processing the sulfuric waste water alone. i actually removed my washing machines already and just relying on my accumulated sulfur now. I actually had to research warehouse to store my 70k sulfur.

Using the most efficient smelting methods (with anodes/cathodes) you go through those 70k sulfur like it was nothing.

There needs to be a more direct source of sulfur like the coal washing without seablock.

[hewhoispale]

I whipped up some ceramic filters early so I wouldn't have to cart charcoal around to *another* part of my base that didn't really need it. But now I'm having an issue were I'm barely making enough sulfuric acid to keep neutral. I need lubricant to advance to the next stage of cupric refining, but because my desert gardens only gave me those parallel corn seeds, I'm looking at having to setup blue algae to get access to mineral oil and I'm concerned about my ability to keep my sludge filtering going if I'm siphoning off the waste water to make blue algae.
I'm stuck relying on washing machines currently, there a good source of sulfur production in the 2 beaker tech stage that I'm missing? Most of it just appears to be, at best, break-even reclamation of byproducts.

[mrvn]

I whipped up some ceramic filters early so I wouldn't have to cart charcoal around to *another* part of my base that didn't really need it. But now I'm having an issue were I'm barely making enough sulfuric acid to keep neutral. I need lubricant to advance to the next stage of cupric refining, but because my desert gardens only gave me those parallel corn seeds, I'm looking at having to setup blue algae to get access to mineral oil and I'm concerned about my ability to keep my sludge filtering going if I'm siphoning off the waste water to make blue algae.
I'm stuck relying on washing machines currently, there a good source of sulfur production in the 2 beaker tech stage that I'm missing? Most of it just appears to be, at best, break-even reclamation of byproducts.

I don't think there is any fast source of sulfur. The only real source is the washing plant and that's rather slow. The slag to ore loop gives a little sulfur and the geodes to ore loop takes sulfur (which the washing plant supplies).

My suggestion is to research circuit logic and pump sulfuric waste water out of the ore loops when sulfur buffer chest filled by your washing plants has >100 sulfur in it. Or connect a tank to the sulfuric waste water of the ore loop and pump out of that if >10k filled. On the reverse side you can vent the gas from the washing pant when the sulfur buffer chests becomes full or the sulfuric waste water tank becomes full.

Using both mechanisms you never drain the ore loop or get stuck because sulfur isn't used up. Personally I would add lots and lots of buffer for sulfur so you never have to vent. You can always use the sulfur later in the game for the more efficient smelting recipes.

Note: other users of sulfuric acid can take sulfur out of the sulfur buffer chest. instead of siphoning off sulfuric waste water.

[hewhoispale]

I whipped up some ceramic filters early so I wouldn't have to cart charcoal around to *another* part of my base that didn't really need it. But now I'm having an issue were I'm barely making enough sulfuric acid to keep neutral. I need lubricant to advance to the next stage of cupric refining, but because my desert gardens only gave me those parallel corn seeds, I'm looking at having to setup blue algae to get access to mineral oil and I'm concerned about my ability to keep my sludge filtering going if I'm siphoning off the waste water to make blue algae.
I'm stuck relying on washing machines currently, there a good source of sulfur production in the 2 beaker tech stage that I'm missing? Most of it just appears to be, at best, break-even reclamation of byproducts.

I don't think there is any fast source of sulfur. The only real source is the washing plant and that's rather slow. The slag to ore loop gives a little sulfur and the geodes to ore loop takes sulfur (which the washing plant supplies).

My suggestion is to research circuit logic and pump sulfuric waste water out of the ore loops when sulfur buffer chest filled by your washing plants has >100 sulfur in it. Or connect a tank to the sulfuric waste water of the ore loop and pump out of that if >10k filled. On the reverse side you can vent the gas from the washing pant when the sulfur buffer chests becomes full or the sulfuric waste water tank becomes full.

Using both mechanisms you never drain the ore loop or get stuck because sulfur isn't used up. Personally I would add lots and lots of buffer for sulfur so you never have to vent. You can always use the sulfur later in the game for the more efficient smelting recipes.

Note: other users of sulfuric acid can take sulfur out of the sulfur buffer chest. instead of siphoning off sulfuric waste water.

I've been making extensive use of the inline petrochem tanks for buffers in this run and recently got the circuit tech for similar reasons with tree/farm processing.

I've never really had an issue with generating enough sulfur in 0.15 runs (I mostly had issues with the opposite really, far more sulfur than I could use), so with this being an issue now, I was hoping I was missing something obvious. Time to make *more* washing plants I suppose.

[Theaisa]

I whipped up some ceramic filters early so I wouldn't have to cart charcoal around to *another* part of my base that didn't really need it. But now I'm having an issue were I'm barely making enough sulfuric acid to keep neutral. I need lubricant to advance to the next stage of cupric refining, but because my desert gardens only gave me those parallel corn seeds, I'm looking at having to setup blue algae to get access to mineral oil and I'm concerned about my ability to keep my sludge filtering going if I'm siphoning off the waste water to make blue algae.
I'm stuck relying on washing machines currently, there a good source of sulfur production in the 2 beaker tech stage that I'm missing? Most of it just appears to be, at best, break-even reclamation of byproducts.

I don't think there is any fast source of sulfur. The only real source is the washing plant and that's rather slow. The slag to ore loop gives a little sulfur and the geodes to ore loop takes sulfur (which the washing plant supplies).

My suggestion is to research circuit logic and pump sulfuric waste water out of the ore loops when sulfur buffer chest filled by your washing plants has >100 sulfur in it. Or connect a tank to the sulfuric waste water of the ore loop and pump out of that if >10k filled. On the reverse side you can vent the gas from the washing pant when the sulfur buffer chests becomes full or the sulfuric waste water tank becomes full.

Using both mechanisms you never drain the ore loop or get stuck because sulfur isn't used up. Personally I would add lots and lots of buffer for sulfur so you never have to vent. You can always use the sulfur later in the game for the more efficient smelting recipes.

Note: other users of sulfuric acid can take sulfur out of the sulfur buffer chest. instead of siphoning off sulfuric waste water.

I've been making extensive use of the inline petrochem tanks for buffers in this run and recently got the circuit tech for similar reasons with tree/farm processing.

I've never really had an issue with generating enough sulfur in 0.15 runs (I mostly had issues with the opposite really, far more sulfur than I could use), so with this being an issue now, I was hoping I was missing something obvious. Time to make *more* washing plants I suppose.

In my experience, the geode -> ores chain gives a decent amount of sulfur, but ceramic filters definitely aren't worth it I think.. it's really not that big a deal to set up a charcoal production chain by your filtering plants. A single green algae farm can provide for a good number of filters and only need mineralized water as input.

[Moxzot]

Man sulfur is a pain to get 3 sulfur in for 1 out using water treatment.

[Krychle]

Anyone else notice that you can place Concrete Bricks down as concrete flooring, but picking it back up "converts" it into Concrete Flooring as an item?
Slowest and most inconvenient conversion method evar.

[pensa]

I was using some spreadsheets to calculate my washing to geodes to ore system, and in the "Washing for geodes" recipe, the yields for blue and red it says the yield is 1.5. I was expecting this to mean guaranteed 1 geode + 50% odd of getting the second one, or even 3 geodes every 2 washes, however, it is always 1 geode produced. Is this intended or is a bug?

That's because I might have been a bit stupid when I set it up, looking at the recipe again now:

Code: Select all

		results=
		{
			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=1, probability=1.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-cyan", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-lightgreen", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-purple", amount=1, probability=0.75},
			{type="item", name="geode-red", amount=1, probability=1.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-yellow", amount=1, probability=1},
		},

Yea, i checked the source code and also found this line...
i assume

Code: Select all

results=
		{
			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=1, probability=1},
			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=1, probability=0.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-cyan", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-lightgreen", amount=1, probability=0.6},
			{type="item", name="geode-purple", amount=1, probability=0.75},
			{type="item", name="geode-red", amount=1, probability=1},
			{type="item", name="geode-red", amount=1, probability=0.5},
			{type="item", name="geode-yellow", amount=1, probability=1},
		}

would fix it, right?
kinda like how the seed duplication works?

Thank you for the quick response, Angel

That will break helmod. Recipes with duplicate products cause an exception.

Wouldn't it be better to use this?

Code: Select all

			{type="item", name="geode-blue", amount=2, probability=0.75},

The semantics are different, but the expected value is the same...
Given the circumstances, it is the best option

[roax206]

This has been bugging me for a while but is there any real point in the advanced solder smelting tech line? The starter recipe which only uses assemblers and metal mixing furnaces gives a 1:2 ingot input to solder output ratio and even the tier 3 smelting tech gives a 7:16 ingot input to soldier output ratio with the tier 2 matching the starter ratio albeit without the trace amounts or resin or aginic acid. The techs are not used by any others as far as I know and generally the infrastructure required for the higher tiers of solder smelting in much more than the starting recipe, and while the possible throughput is particularly high even steel has been fixed to noticeably bias the smelting line.

[live22morrow]

This has been bugging me for a while but is there any real point in the advanced solder smelting tech line? The starter recipe which only uses assemblers and metal mixing furnaces gives a 1:2 ingot input to solder output ratio and even the tier 3 smelting tech gives a 7:16 ingot input to soldier output ratio with the tier 2 matching the starter ratio albeit without the trace amounts or resin or aginic acid. The techs are not used by any others as far as I know and generally the infrastructure required for the higher tiers of solder smelting in much more than the starting recipe, and while the possible throughput is particularly high even steel has been fixed to noticeably bias the smelting line.

Advanced solder smelting is much more energy efficient than the furnace recipes. From just the tin/lead ingots, these are my computed energy costs for a single solder.

Solder (Alginic Acid): 237kj

Solder (Resin): around 170kj (kind of hard to model the cost of resin)

Solder smelting 2: 31kj

Solder is a high demand product, so any reduction in energy consumption will be worth it in the long run.

[mrvn]

This has been bugging me for a while but is there any real point in the advanced solder smelting tech line? The starter recipe which only uses assemblers and metal mixing furnaces gives a 1:2 ingot input to solder output ratio and even the tier 3 smelting tech gives a 7:16 ingot input to soldier output ratio with the tier 2 matching the starter ratio albeit without the trace amounts or resin or aginic acid. The techs are not used by any others as far as I know and generally the infrastructure required for the higher tiers of solder smelting in much more than the starting recipe, and while the possible throughput is particularly high even steel has been fixed to noticeably bias the smelting line.

Advanced solder smelting is much more energy efficient than the furnace recipes. From just the tin/lead ingots, these are my computed energy costs for a single solder.

Solder (Alginic Acid): 237kj

Solder (Resin): around 170kj (kind of hard to model the cost of resin)

Solder smelting 2: 31kj

Solder is a high demand product, so any reduction in energy consumption will be worth it in the long run.

What you really need to use is the solder coils. I think there is a bug there because unlike all the other coil recipes the solder coils give you twice the yield. I mentioned it on the Angels mods forum but so far it hasn't been changed.

As for energy efficiency I find that I totally ignore that. It's not like you need a million solder a second. Using up less ores on the other hand
(by a factor of 2) is a major save on the whole geode or slag processing loop that produces the raw ores. That will easily save more energy than those 200kj I think.

[hewhoispale]

In the line of trying out different strats than I used in my 0.15 run, I'm giving these ferrous/cupric sortings a try. (Well, I'm currently trying to get enough of the petrochem online to get the lubricant I need for the milling drums, but that's another struggle.)

The tier 1 cupric sorting seems to great for tinned wire strand casting...and not much else. One really doesn't need much tin early on, and my copper production has stalled. Is there a good long term sink for tin while I'm trying to get tier 2 cupric (which has much less tin) online? Or am I off base with the point of the cupric sorting and just need to setup a distinct direct copper sorting line and eat the mineral catalyst requirements?

[mrvn]

I use the cupric ore too. But I undid the change for transport belts to need steel and kept it needing tin. So that is a great sink for tin and a huge relieve for the iron production.

If you take away the transport belts as tin sink then you are left with tined copper wire and solder. Not enough to balance the copper I fear.
But don't abandon cupric ore. Just suplement it with the basic ore sortings that give iron+copper and pure copper ore sorting.

[live22morrow]

I use the cupric ore too. But I undid the change for transport belts to need steel and kept it needing tin. So that is a great sink for tin and a huge relieve for the iron production.

If you take away the transport belts as tin sink then you are left with tined copper wire and solder. Not enough to balance the copper I fear.
But don't abandon cupric ore. Just suplement it with the basic ore sortings that give iron+copper and pure copper ore sorting.

Do you also use the inserter overhaul? Personally, I find it to be a nice difficulty balance. Especially with how it forces me to use the slower yellow and red inserters in my early setups, rather than jumping straight to blue. And it makes the late game inserters actually expensive.