Getting rid of alien artifacts is a bad idea

[Deadly-Bagel]

A way to automate collecting artifacts is to install the mod that makes the 'non-nests' drop the little artifacts and the mod that can mark those artifacts to 'deconstruct' from the ground.
Now place a circle with turrets around a nest so that the turrets can't shoot the nest but can shot the aliens than come out.
Finally place a roboport in the range for the artifacts.
This works even when the game is setup to be friendly.

Loot Chest does one better, automatically moves ALL artefacts from everywhere on the map to the Loot Chest. Can then take them out of there and filter them off if more than one type. That's what I did for Bob's Mods, was tired of visiting an old outpost and finding literally thousands of little beads laying around everywhere.

However these sort of strategies are CPU intensive. Loot Chest works every half second or something to cut down on cost but this means you end up with a bunch in your inventory as you collect them before they get moved. I'm also not convinced it collects 100% of artefacts due to how it works, but the more reliable ways cause serious performance issues. Overall IMO it's best just to get rid of them.

Most of the time I have to little or to much artifacts. When I have to much somehow I still don't like to just let them lay on the ground.

The same reason we like symmetrical designs and perfect ratios, I know exactly what you mean. I've also had a few problems where I set up a new outpost, laid a bunch of belts down which picked up a few artefacts that then blocked components from reaching some machines (using Bob's Mods with his multitudes of artefacts).

[Nich]

Biter clearing is easily semi-automatable

10,000 power poles in a grid
10,000 lasers in a grid
robot ports in a grid

blueprint and spam

Makes sure you have enough power

[Tinyboss]

umm... choice and freedom by eliminating half of the game you personally don't like doing? Would it be a step for choice and freedom if basebuilding was completely optional and you could only win the game by destroying biters? I think this is simply an overreaction to the combat experience being poor and having to do so much of it for the megabases that the devs like to make. There is room for some kind of balance.

I don't think it's accurate to call it "half of the game". There are a million games out there, from RTS to twin-stick shooters and so much in between, that do combat much, much better than Factorio. But there are very few automation games out there, and none (IMO) that do it as well as Factorio. My point is that "get combat out of my automation game" and "get automation out of my combat game" aren't equally valid for Factorio.

[Stede]

First Impressions after playing the experimental 0.15 release:

It's a lot tougher to take out a biter base. Turret Creep is expensive with the resource cost balances to turrets & ammo. The early biter bases can be pretty big, and the sheer number spawning can overwhelm you if you didn't pack a big bag. It takes more to clear a biter base - and now you get nothing for it. It feels hollow.

I'm not sure the old way was "better", but it was nice to get something for clearing a biter base. Is clearing a spawner still bumping biter evolution like it used to? Because if so, all that work for nothing and you make the game harder on yourself to boot.

I want SOMETHING from clearing the biter bases. Not sure how to fix it, but I'm sure there are a lot of ideas out there.

[Ohz]

In summary, I think removing alien artifacts is against the spirit of the game, removes incentives for fighting and exploring, removes incentives to research and make most military items, and will make the gameplay experience a much drier affair.

All depends on your map settings. Aliens still hold the most important resource of all. That is terrain. Terrain contains all other resources except for daylight. You need terrain to build your base on. Everything except oil runs dry eventually, so you need to secure more space before you run out.

+1

[Silba]

What's the point of the aliens now then? Just as useless as the rocket used to be. They should offer SOMETHING atleast. Maybe not mandatory for those who don't wish to play a war zone but something.

[cooltv27]

there needs to be a resource that you can obtain in small amounts without fighting biters but large amounts if you do choose to deal with them

obtaining them without fighting should be really inefficient requiring:
far more resources than just shooting nests or whatever they drop from
much much more space than weapons production does
a lot longer than just killing biters takes

some combination of these inefficiencies (resource, space, time) over just killing biters would probably be enough to justify people who want biters to be relevant but also allowing a way to obtain this resource without having to fight them

[AileTheAlien]

What's the point of the aliens now then?

The point is that they force you to fight and defend against an antagonistic force in the game. Without them, you could just freely expand your factory forever without any resistance.

[mergele]

there needs to be a resource that you can obtain in small amounts without fighting biters but large amounts if you do choose to deal with them

obtaining them without fighting should be really inefficient requiring:
far more resources than just shooting nests or whatever they drop from
much much more space than weapons production does
a lot longer than just killing biters takes

some combination of these inefficiencies (resource, space, time) over just killing biters would probably be enough to justify people who want biters to be relevant but also allowing a way to obtain this resource without having to fight them

I don't think it would work
-No matter how long it takes to produce something the sheer power you can get through large-scale automation will at some point always outperform manually going out.
-Unless you make it insanely expensive it will at some point still be more comfortable and quick to just build and plug in another mining outpost.
-Considering that you will go out and clear territory anyways the space requirement just pushes the construction of large enough bases back a bit.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Biters do hold a resource, and it's even been said before: land.

First of all pushing them back will alleviate the pressure on your walls, depending on your expansion settings. You will often be required to delete a bunch of nests to build outposts and expand your factory so there's the "valuable" resource you need. At some point you might even need to build the usual Great Wall around a large portion of the map and destroy all the nests within it so you're not fighting for every inch all the time, though this will again depend on expansion settings.

So given the right perspective and settings combat is still a rewarding practice, just now you don't get pushed into it earlier than you're prepared for, and you're not running around after the artefacts afterwards.

[MeduSalem]

In summary, I think removing alien artifacts is against the spirit of the game, removes incentives for fighting and exploring, removes incentives to research and make most military items, and will make the gameplay experience a much drier affair.

All depends on your map settings. Aliens still hold the most important resource of all. That is terrain. Terrain contains all other resources except for daylight. You need terrain to build your base on. Everything except oil runs dry eventually, so you need to secure more space before you run out.

I also agree with Daid... due to the necessarity of expansion to grab more resources you will have to fight the Biter Bases anyways no matter what. And that's the reward you get... more space to build, more resources to mine.

Except if you only plan to launch a single rocket and then leave it at that, then you might not need to expand... but I think that most people play further than that so they will eventually run out of local resources.

So I think that removing the Alien Artifacts wasn't that bad of an idea.

Instead I think it was quite a good idea because more than once I had the problem (in hardcore settings) that I spent too much time building/changing my factory due to bottlenecks and other problems without keeping an eye at the Biter evolution and then I couldn't kill the Biter Bases anymore due to lacking the military force necessary to do it... but I couldn't research the military equipment because I was lacking Alien Artifacts... basically deadlocking myself. That problem is gone now, luckily. It made me ragequit when you already spent 20 hours on a map and then realize that you have to give up because there is no way out of the chicken and egg problem.

[Silba]

What's the point of the aliens now then?

The point is that they force you to fight and defend against an antagonistic force in the game. Without them, you could just freely expand your factory forever without any resistance.

Only people who are new to the game would feel any sense of defending from them. Anyone who has played for more than 20 hours should know to just setup a perimter of turrets with automated ammo and evetually lasers and never even have to worry. Right now aliens are pointless and a waste of cpu. There's literally no reason to have them on the map, they provide nothing except tedius alarm warnings.

[MeduSalem]

Only people who are new to the game would feel any sense of defending from them. Anyone who has played for more than 20 hours should know to just setup a perimter of turrets with automated ammo and evetually lasers and never even have to worry. Right now aliens are pointless and a waste of cpu. There's literally no reason to have them on the map, they provide nothing except tedius alarm warnings.

With that kind of argumentation you could also remove AI factions from most other Strategy games available... because once your defense is good enough to fend off any attack... well why have them on the map then? They are just an annoyance which get steamrolled anyways.

Kinda a self-defeating argumentation that if pursued would only lead to the point where one might even justify not having a game in the first place.

[Matthias_Wlkp]

I like the idea of no artifacts and fully agree with the aliens holding the most valuable resource - land.

Biters are still valuable, as they force you to maintain defenses. They will grow over time and if you don't pay attention, they will ultimately overwhelm you.

For me, chasing after bases and artifacts was the most annoying part of the game, which did not offer any reward. Yet another resource, which cannot be automated.

[Silba]

Only people who are new to the game would feel any sense of defending from them. Anyone who has played for more than 20 hours should know to just setup a perimter of turrets with automated ammo and evetually lasers and never even have to worry. Right now aliens are pointless and a waste of cpu. There's literally no reason to have them on the map, they provide nothing except tedius alarm warnings.

With that kind of argumentation you could also remove AI factions from most other Strategy games available... because once your defense is good enough to fend off any attack... well why have them on the map then? They are just an annoyance which get steamrolled anyways.

Kinda a self-defeating argumentation that if pursued would only lead to the point where one might even justify not having a game in the first place.

You couldn't be more wrong. The whole point of games like that is to fight and the enemy is somehwat smart and fun to engage with. Completely different style of game so you can't try to compare them and when done properly the enemy factions will adapt and eventually break your defence. In factorio the aliens offer none of the above.

In factorio expansion is neccesary depending on map generation settings and how many rockets you want to launch (and even more neccesary now with .15). But still biters are no real threat and no real fun to engage with and are just boring to deal with.

[n7m6e7]

Just to jump in here, I agree, there needs to be a reward for destroying biter bases, other than just holding them off. I'm sure its been mentioned, but alien artifacts should simply be used in strictly military sciences.

Lore-wise, it makes sense to use alien parts to research the best way to kill them. Leading to breakthroughs in bullet and laser tech.

Gameplay-wise, it makes sense that if you are killing biters, you get material that allows you to kill them more efficiently, as they evolve to be a bigger threat. HOWEVER if you are playing peaceful, the only reason to attack them, is to get better weapons... Which you don't care about, so no loss in your decision not to attack them.

TL:DR
Start
Fight biter, to get better gun, to fight bigger biter.
goto start
If peaceful, leave em alone.

[MeduSalem]

[...]when done properly the enemy factions will adapt and eventually break your defence. [...]

Well your entire point is based around the existence of a game that does it well... and I have yet to see a game that does it properly and I have played a lot in the past 25 years. With the right experience and knowledge pretty much all games can be gambled to a point where any available AI is doomed to fail no matter what it does because of how your offense/defense is just superior in every way.

To be honest most games have utterly dumb AI and even if the AI has some sort of learning capabilities they still fail due to being unable to abuse balancing issues and/or bugs the way human players do.

The only way they might eventually win against you is if they are buffed to oblivion like becoming bullet sponges while you turn into a one-hit, then they win by chance because it takes you so long to kill them that they will eventually hit you. Or they resort on cheating like having no fog of war or being able to see straight through walls or have 360 Degree views... literally eyes in their back. With those kind of games one can't argue about them doing it properly.

The only games where there is actually equally strong competition are multiplayer focused games.

[Silba]

Just to jump in here, I agree, there needs to be a reward for destroying biter bases, other than just holding them off. I'm sure its been mentioned, but alien artifacts should simply be used in strictly military sciences.

Lore-wise, it makes sense to use alien parts to research the best way to kill them. Leading to breakthroughs in bullet and laser tech.

Gameplay-wise, it makes sense that if you are killing biters, you get material that allows you to kill them more efficiently, as they evolve to be a bigger threat. HOWEVER if you are playing peaceful, the only reason to attack them, is to get better weapons... Which you don't care about, so no loss in your decision not to attack them.

TL:DR
Start
Fight biter, to get better gun, to fight bigger biter.
goto start
If peaceful, leave em alone.

This is the solution !

[Silba]

[...]when done properly the enemy factions will adapt and eventually break your defence. [...]

Well your entire point is based around the existence of a game that does it well... and I have yet to see a game that does it properly and I have played a lot in the past 25 years. With the right experience and knowledge pretty much all games can be gambled to a point where any available AI is doomed to fail no matter what it does because of how your offense/defense is just superior in every way.

To be honest most games have utterly dumb AI and even if the AI has some sort of learning capabilities they still fail due to being unable to abuse balancing issues and/or bugs the way human players do.

The only way they might eventually win against you is if they are buffed to oblivion like becoming bullet sponges while you turn into a one-hit, then they win by chance because it takes you so long to kill them that they will eventually hit you. Or they resort on cheating like having no fog of war or being able to see straight through walls or have 360 Degree views... literally eyes in their back. With those kind of games one can't argue about them doing it properly.

The only games where there is actually equally strong competition are multiplayer focused games.

Mostly agree but still those games are fun, biters aren't.

[Deadly-Bagel]

So let me get this straight.

You guys want artefacts reintroduced to the game to give some meaning to meaninglessly running out and killing biters because without artefacts it feels hollow and pointless (despite artefacts having zero value past a point) but you still want to do it anyway?

Mkay then.