SOLAR or STEAM [poll]

[zytukin]

why not include building the components as part of the complexity?

Because it has nothing to do with the complexity of laying out the power station.

A solar field + its optimal array of accumulators is simply simple it doesn't matter if you are laying 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 the pattern is the same the only difference is the time and space required.

Now compare steam

100 is easy, 1000 is vastly more complex, 10000 well I haven't yet tried.

Can't you blueprint a set of 10 engines, 14 boilers with inserters and conveyor, and an off shore pump and run around spamming it at any water body you can find and then just run the fuel conveyor? Or include a roboport if using logistics bots.

Only thing that looks 'complex' to me is the fuel source, and after building a refinery (which is also needed for the accumulators anyway) for the first time they aren't hard. If you secure enough oil sources then solid fuel will never be an issue. Depending on your layout and the space you allowed for expansion, it is just a matter of once in a while adding more refineries and chem labs for cracking/solid fuel production and occasionally locating new oil sources to use (difficulty depending on map settings).

Just comes down to time and space again.
A map could have a lot of water just as easily as barely any water, all depends on the settings.

[taiiat]

That is the deposit itself, not the actual output of mines.

The map I'm using will sometimes have stone mixed in with copper ore (a few tiles will have both copper and stone) and I do like the extra step that it adds to separate the two.

yes, and the way it generates is your fluctuation. adding further fluctuation is multiple layers of fluctuation.

Ores will generate mixed sometimes. i could make do with them if they were large enough but so far i've only seen medium sized at most with mixed. making it not worth my time because i want/need high volume.
if there was high density of both, then i'd be okay with splitting the belt to two more belts with like 24 Smart Inserters to keep up with the flow rate. but not that much point tbh if the mixed Ores is like 5k of both when elsewhere there's deposits of 60k of both.

So are you telling me that you arrived at the optimum 1:2:1, 14:10:1 or 28:21:3 (boiler:engine:pump) ratios on your first attempt?
(Without looking on the Wiki)

no. i built more than enough Boilers, where there was 1 that sad idle which is good for scalability in the future.

all i did was run pipe from Offshore to 4 Boilers, and then strung as many Steam Engines as i could afford to build at the time. and continued to add some more when i could afford them.
i ended up with 12 Steam Engines off of that, after adding another row of Boilers.

it just all made sense. pipes from A to B to C.
the most efficient it was not, but it was arranged to be scalable and the Steam Engines were receiving liquid at 100° so it was correct.

A map could have a lot of water just as easily as barely any water, all depends on the settings.

i mean, you can use any Liquid that you want, if needbe.
i'm not sure it's possible to have a large enough Refinery setup with enough Trains bringing in Oil from distant Pumpjacks to supply the Steam Engines you'd need to... power the Oil Buildings, though.
without Modules ofcourse, b/c with Efficiency ofc you can do it.

[Berjiz]

why not include building the components as part of the complexity?

Because it has nothing to do with the complexity of laying out the power station.

A solar field + its optimal array of accumulators is simply simple it doesn't matter if you are laying 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 the pattern is the same the only difference is the time and space required.

Now compare steam

100 is easy, 1000 is vastly more complex, 10000 well I haven't yet tried.

Can't you blueprint a set of 10 engines, 14 boilers with inserters and conveyor, and an off shore pump and run around spamming it at any water body you can find and then just run the fuel conveyor? Or include a roboport if using logistics bots.

Only thing that looks 'complex' to me is the fuel source, and after building a refinery (which is also needed for the accumulators anyway) for the first time they aren't hard. If you secure enough oil sources then solid fuel will never be an issue. Depending on your layout and the space you allowed for expansion, it is just a matter of once in a while adding more refineries and chem labs for cracking/solid fuel production and occasionally locating new oil sources to use (difficulty depending on map settings).

Just comes down to time and space again.
A map could have a lot of water just as easily as barely any water, all depends on the settings.

You can't plop it down as easy or as fast as solar though. Water edges are often irregular which means you won't get a nice grid unless you manually fix the spacing between pump and boiler or boiler and engines. Same with the fuel belt, it needs to be run over the place which takes time to do manually.

[tehroach]

So are you telling me that you arrived at the optimum 1:2:1, 14:10:1 or 28:21:3 (boiler:engine:pump) ratios on your first attempt?
(Without looking on the Wiki)

no. i built more than enough Boilers, where there was 1 that sad idle which is good for scalability in the future.

all i did was run pipe from Offshore to 4 Boilers, and then strung as many Steam Engines as i could afford to build at the time. and continued to add some more when i could afford them.
i ended up with 12 Steam Engines off of that, after adding another row of Boilers.

it just all made sense. pipes from A to B to C.
the most efficient it was not, but it was arranged to be scalable and the Steam Engines were receiving liquid at 100° so it was correct.

So with your first 4 boilers (which is really only good for 2-3 engines) did you NOT have to pickup and replace any components?
Because I and everyone else that I have ever played with (first timers) end up placing/replacing steam setups multiple times, where as when I first used solar I never had to intentionally replace the components, I just added more and it didn't matter where I put them as I only ended up moving them; if they got in the way of my tracks or when I accidentally removed them with my tank.


Maybe this is where our communication confusion is coming from, I didn't intend to mean that it is hard to get steam working, it is just that steam requires some sort of logical layout, where as solar can be plonked anywhere as long as they are in the same power network.

[tehroach]

Can't you blueprint a set of 10 engines, 14 boilers with inserters and conveyor, and an off shore pump and run around spamming it at any water body you can find and then just run the fuel conveyor? Or include a roboport if using logistics bots.

Yes you could
but I would call that multiple 10 engine setups, not 100 (let alone 1000, 10000) even if you had hundreds of these, but I would like to see you try and put these all in the same relative location.

You run into big problems with the blueprint idea (which again is easy with solar) when you realize that a 384 engine setup just won't fit on a fully zoomed screen. (well at least I am unable to fit it yet)
My largest setup yet 16 boiler lanes (8 per side) from one express belt feed by a 2 carriage train in a 28:24:3 ratio

Only thing that looks 'complex' to me is the fuel source

IMO the fuel source is the easy part, its the piping that is the b1t<h

This is the main reason that I made the AC/DC network suggestion, to add an element of the piping challenge (involved with steam) to solar
- The AC network would be the same as is now ie the footprint of the power poles.
- The DC network would not use the power pole footprint but instead would just be copper wire (similar to the circuit networks) where solar panels and accumulators would need to be connected to power poles via a AC/DC converter.


PS A mechanically rotating power generation device (ie wind turbine or steam turbine) will naturally produce AC power, where as a solid state device (ie battery, solar panel) will produce DC.

[zytukin]

Why does steam have to be a neat grid and all in one localized place? (landfill mod would help with that)
That is just a matter of preference about how you play the game, nothing more, nothing less.

To me it basically seems like your saying that steam is more involved because you *choose* to do things to make it a more complex design and layout instead of just pasting a generic layout anyplace that it will fit. But at the same time, have the complete opposite view of solar, believing that solar is too easy because of the *choice* to blueprint and clone a generic layout instead of placing them manually and in various areas.


it's not exactly quick and easy to just plop down blueprints of 720 solar panels or 600 accumulators either.


P.S.
/c game.local_player.zoom = #
use a number below 1 to zoom out further. Like 0.5 or 0.1

[tehroach]

To me it basically seems like your saying that steam is more involved because you *choose* to do things to make it a more complex design and layout instead of just pasting a generic layout anyplace that it will fit. But at the same time, have the complete opposite view of solar, believing that solar is too easy because of the *choice* to blueprint and clone a generic layout instead of placing them manually and in various areas.

To me it basically seems like you have missed the point!

[taiiat]

Maybe this is where our communication confusion is coming from, I didn't intend to mean that it is hard to get steam working, it is just that steam requires some sort of logical layout, where as solar can be plonked anywhere as long as they are in the same power network.

ofcourse. Steam isn't difficult, Solar is just much easier.

But at the same time, have the complete opposite view of solar, believing that solar is too easy because of the *choice* to blueprint and clone a generic layout instead of placing them manually and in various areas.

it's not exactly quick and easy to just plop down blueprints of 720 solar panels or 600 accumulators either.

but Solar is that easy. as long as it's connected with Power Poles, you're done. organization saves space, but you don't have to actually care about that. just place a lot of Solar Panels and Accumulators and repeat when you need more power capacity.
Solar Panels is one of the very, very few things in Factorio that has no Logistics involved - which is certainly strange.

[zytukin]

To me it basically seems like your saying that steam is more involved because you *choose* to do things to make it a more complex design and layout instead of just pasting a generic layout anyplace that it will fit. But at the same time, have the complete opposite view of solar, believing that solar is too easy because of the *choice* to blueprint and clone a generic layout instead of placing them manually and in various areas.

To me it basically seems like you have missed the point!

If the point wasn't "I don't like solar because it is possible (although not required) to spam them via blueprint despite that fact I can do that (but choose not to) with steam and other things" then I apologize for misunderstanding and missing your point. :p

[zytukin]

This is the main reason that I made the AC/DC network suggestion, to add an element of the piping challenge (involved with steam) to solar
- The AC network would be the same as is now ie the footprint of the power poles.
- The DC network would not use the power pole footprint but instead would just be copper wire (similar to the circuit networks) where solar panels and accumulators would need to be connected to power poles via a AC/DC converter.


PS A mechanically rotating power generation device (ie wind turbine or steam turbine) will naturally produce AC power, where as a solid state device (ie battery, solar panel) will produce DC.

That is a good idea and adds a bit of realism to them.
But, what would it do besides just adding something else to the blueprint?
Basically just replaces substations with alternators.

[LogicalOre]

I could see solar taking a more interesting role if 3d terrain and/or factory elements, or maybe weather were added to the game. E.g., in very hilly/mountainous terrain, solar panels will only work at the tops of the hills. Or maybe they don't work if they're in the shadow of a defensive wall or something.

[zytukin]

I could see solar taking a more interesting role if 3d terrain and/or factory elements, or maybe weather were added to the game. E.g., in very hilly/mountainous terrain, solar panels will only work at the tops of the hills. Or maybe they don't work if they're in the shadow of a defensive wall or something.

Another nice idea.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the desert biome providing more power then other biomes.
If wear were to be implemented, then it could be counteracted by more wear and tare on the panels due to blowing sand.

[tehroach]

To me it basically seems like your saying that steam is more involved because you *choose* to do things to make it a more complex design and layout instead of just pasting a generic layout anyplace that it will fit. But at the same time, have the complete opposite view of solar, believing that solar is too easy because of the *choice* to blueprint and clone a generic layout instead of placing them manually and in various areas.

To me it basically seems like you have missed the point!

If the point wasn't "I don't like solar because it is possible (although not required) to spam them via blueprint despite that fact I can do that (but choose not to) with steam and other things" then I apologize for misunderstanding and missing your point. :p

To be honest I don't actually use blueprints much at all, I like the fact that they are there as an option as they open up a whole valley of play-style options, however they don't generally fall into my play-style.
As I like to experiment and am not into the speed run type of game; every new factory I build, I intentionally vary from the last just to see the affects.

The point that I am trying to make has nothing to do with the fact that I like Solar power because in real life I love the idea.

The point for me is that IMO Factorio is about creating and solving puzzles in a fun way, but the puzzles don't have to have an exact answer; as two answers can be greatly different, yet still solve the puzzle equally.
IMO Solar in its current state is NOT a puzzle worthy of it steam alternative, which instantly nerfs steam out of the equation in the case of a numbers only game-play choice.

I think taiiat sums up my point nicely

but Solar is that easy. as long as it's connected with Power Poles, you're done. organization saves space, but you don't have to actually care about that. just place a lot of Solar Panels and Accumulators and repeat when you need more power capacity.
Solar Panels is one of the very, very few things in Factorio that has no Logistics involved - which is certainly strange.

This is the main reason that I made the AC/DC network suggestion, to add an element of the piping challenge (involved with steam) to solar
- The AC network would be the same as is now ie the footprint of the power poles.
- The DC network would not use the power pole footprint but instead would just be copper wire (similar to the circuit networks) where solar panels and accumulators would need to be connected to power poles via a AC/DC converter.


PS A mechanically rotating power generation device (ie wind turbine or steam turbine) will naturally produce AC power, where as a solid state device (ie battery, solar panel) will produce DC.

That is a good idea and adds a bit of realism to them.
But, what would it do besides just adding something else to the blueprint?
Basically just replaces substations with alternators.

Yes it wouldn't solve the problem entirely but it would add a puzzle to solar that it is currently lacking.
but after reading

I also wouldn't mind seeing the desert biome providing more power then other biomes.
If wear were to be implemented, then it could be counteracted by more wear and tare on the panels due to blowing sand.

I believe that zytukin(you) too believe(s) that solar is missing or lacking any interesting components or elements

You must admit that a 2 piece puzzle is boring!
IMO adding a few extra pieces, some random effect (ie cloudy/sunny days), biome variety (as zytukin mentioned) would go along way in addressing the problem.

Maybe if the bitter AI was attracted to solar panels,
-NOT in the same way they are attracted to other polluting modules, where they attack on sight
-instead the bitters would "like" them and want to congregate around them (maybe this could be applied to all undefended power poles),
-eventually building a base that would draw power from the solar grid (and anything connected) to spawn more bitters.