Yuoki Industries - Addon Engines 0.4.20 (0.14.X)

[monty]

First of all a great mod
I have been waiting for someone to come to the ENGINE section. There has been a lot of addition in the thermal section. It a little new but I think it has great scope in the future
And very good graphics too.

There are a few things I want to share for development though,
Lets start small
The valve needs a lil tweaking
It’s a great help with liquid planning, but it needs a it of changes
Currently it stores 50 liquid. This drops the flow rate and it also holds liquid which I rather not have in it. Technically it should hold 0 liquid, however it would be great if it could come down below 10(or maybe one~~as the shafts have 3 units so I was thinking maybe in that range)

That I think should help slightly PUSH water out from the inlet pipe to outlet one.

[monty]

I have something to say about the mf fluid and boilers. I am going to divide it into 2 parts for ease of understanding.

I think that ‘nasabot’ way of implementations is the right way.
Let me elaborate. In the base factorio things are made in small parts, like in a factory , and together they form a unit.For example every pipe unit is a pipe in itself, but many pipes together make a PIPE ASSEMBLY that has a single job (like they all transfer water to boiler). The boiler were the same. Each boiler in the base game is not the entire boiler of the factory, BUT MORE LIKE A SEGMENT OF THE BOILER. Many smaller boilers come together to get the job done.
This also explains their low efficiency as large losses to the environment .(coming back..)

Most of the thermal (boilers) units in this mods are actually an assembly. THEY ARE THE WHOLE PACKAGE. The turbines and generators however helps us make any desired setup. They are like multiple stages of a turbine. The ideal setup would to use both MF and steam together, having the steam input and loose energy and MF gain. I used this relation to understand your way of coding the mf
This made me come to understand some major conditions that u need to put.
1>MF cant acts as a unit but as a whole-if there are 10 shafts in a line, then they should get approx. to same mf throughout. Same applies to output to machines.
2>Tanking and giving power to the already existing mf
This helped me get some basic idea about the setup. Unlike steam/thermal cycle, since they DON’T NEED to equalize, larger “low RPM” MF can be used to generate smaller volume of very high RPM mf.

a) How about adding something like a flywheel for storage of energy<and maybe somehow rate it to deliver a desired output>
its not a storage tank, it just stores a small amount of MF(in range of shaft 3-10) and acts as a fluctuation check. It can be rated to take inlet at all above its current RPM and give output at a desired RPM

b) The gear assembly can be made for usage purpose that acts like a multi entry pipe(something like a T pipe), it takes inlet and transfers higher(or rated ) rpm at one end and lower at other. This way we get a fixed rpm at one end and the other end can be “ramped up” or reprocessed.
The different needs and demands can be managed with this.

Storing MF “COULD”(should) not be allowed, because it might equalize like any other liquid, but its temperature or RPM can be stored is the basic idea.
By the way its an amazing mod, I must say again.

Also if possible, since I get a feeling ur a good coder, could u make the generator or turbines such that their efficiency varies with the RPM. I would like to make a setup of a low pressure and high pressure turbine.
Also could there be some description on the gear ratio in the gearbox so that player can expect a certain output from it.
And is it possible to get a TEMPERATURE VALVE that only allows a fluid above a certain temp. to pass.

[monty]

The other thing I wanted to add was the new boilers and their setups.
I think that these boilers are not overpowered. And that is in context with the amount of energy the new buildings consume. This is an insane amount by the way (topic for another time).
Anyways, the trouble with them is however not their high power consumption, but the delivery system.
This brings us to a point where I have used a combination to get it to work. The MF fluid used in the mod has a higher specific heat, and a higher max temp.
But it cant be used for the CONSUMPTION purpose of the turbines.

But this gave me an idea. if we use higher specific heat fluid to gain heat from the boiler and transfer it to a lower one.
i used HEAT exchange from mopower mod, made it 100% efficient and then used it to heat PRESSURIZED WATER (again form mopower).
And for the basic cycle i used uranium power from (atomic power mod)

THE working fluid is
boiler =steam
generator = p.water

steam
t min =150
t max =600
sp heat = 1MJ<<yes thats a m, 1000KJ)

p. water
t min =15
t max =350
sp heat = 2.4 KJ

in this setup, since the boiler fluid doesnt gets consumed, u can choose any no matter how hard they are to produce.


i think the rest is easy to figure out.

1 unit of steam in one of the boiler set up(an assembly with 100 MJ output)
will raise only 100 degrees

while it can be used to heat

(100*1000)/(2.4*(350-15)) = appx 124 units of p. water

if u use water,
100*1000/1*85= 1175 units



although i think that steam with the insane output is very unreal, but using another fluid with higher heat capacity to indirectly heat lower can work

for steam it can use more than 20 , 50MW generators in series, then go for discharge cycle.

for p water and water, or steam from this mod and water, the cycle can be 2 to 5, 50MW generators and then discharge.

[monty]

here it is

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[Fatmice]

Hello Monty,

First, you should know that Yuoki doesn't like to code things in Factorio (not that he doesn't code or is incapable of coding). Second, I maintain the codes that he used, as I have in the past and will continue to do so for as long as Yuoki support his mods. Now, on to the merits of your ideas.

1/ You should check out my builds for the most recent additions to Engines. There is a thread in this sub forum where I've given the blueprints for some of my builds. It's fair to say that I've used and abused them as far as anyone could. So, see if my solutions are what you need and scale them up as needed.

2/ MF, mechanical force, is a reduction of shaft power to heat power. There is no concept of rotational energy in Factorio so there is no way of storing it or manipulating it. Things in Factorio are quantized and the transformation and conduction of energy is perfect unless the transformation itself is required to be inefficient. Shaft power is not quantized. While the conduction is lossless, the transfer of energy is never lossless. Energy transfer is greatest when the speed difference is greatest, and so is the energy loss as heat due to friction. While the latter is more complex and interesting, perhaps more down to earth, it is computationally expensive to model accurately en mase. This is why Factorio has chosen the former with a simplified version of heat work. This decision also rendered the two systems from ever coexisting again. What Yuoki has done with MF is to try as salvage the spirit of shaft power within the framework of heat power while accepting all of the baggage that comes with the latter.

3/ Rpm can not be modeled. There is nothing in Factorio that spins or can be made to spin where its speed affect its work. There are only states in Factorio. There is also no way to transport spin. You could tokenize spin and transform it in a series of assembly machines (state manipulation), but then what is the meaning of a barrel of spin or a chest of spin?

4/ So spin is modeled as a fluid where temperature is angular speed and torque is heat capacity. This is why you see lots of high temperature steam, which is hot but has low heat capacity and low viscosity, are turned into low amounts of MF with high temperature, high heat capacity, and high viscosity. The problem with fluid is that the same type with different temperature will commingle and yield an average temperature. This is a limitation of the model that must be accepted and the user must be careful to keep MF of different temperature from mixing.

5/ There is no way to stop a user from storing MF in a tank. In fact, storing MF is not whole incompatible since there are fly-wheels. So it is up to the user to regulate this aspect. Do they want to pretend that the tank is just a fly-wheel or not If they can't pretend or not willing to, then perhaps they should design around totally consuming the MF that is made in their system(s). This is entirely possible since Factorio and its underlying mechanisms are always stateful and quantized.

6/ Your steam cycle is not workable. There is no such steam where the heat capacity of steam is higher than that of liquid water under any pressure or temperature regime that I know off. The reason steam can do work is due to either pressure differential (P) and/or volume differential (V). Reciprocating engines uses both PV work while turbines only uses P work. Heat energy imparted to water is carried by steam in its volume, mostly in volume expansion due to the transition from a liquid to a gas. The remainder of the energy is stored in latent heat, specific heat of vaporization, but does no directly useful PV work. This latent heat can be used to drive heat cycles, which indirectly improves the efficiency of PV work.

7/ If you want a better steam cycle, use my mod. I have plans for improving it beyond what it is now, i.e. having high/low pressure turbines and regenerative heating cycles. It already has a low water consumption for the amount of power that it can output.

8/ Regarding pipe valves, it is just a one way pipe. Use a pump if you want to push on the fluid, which incidentally is also a one way pipe that requires power to work.

9/ You use too many of my heat exchangers for what you want to do. Less is more. And unless I'm mistaken, pressurized-water is also from my mod. Mopower, has its own concept of uranium and getting power from it.

10/ The steam turbine makes MF from steam. That MF is consumed in the Generators.

Btw, your spoilers are not working.

[YuokiTani]

after a long time a small update to 0.1.8

- it's now possible to create water-independed electric-outposts without kickstarting through solar-panels. the stirling-engines generate pressured MF, so you can use to power-generation or kickstart a system. the output quality is poor but can improved as before with a gear-box ... to start your cycle you need to kickstart this. fuel-supply can provided with trains, or you mine a coal-field
- the overheater consumes now solid-fuel
- the overheater - turbine - generator cycle looses water, so you need add water to keep this system running
- some of the recipes drasticly changed, and i added blue-unified science, H-metal, Fuseing Center Core
- collecting BUF (Blue-Unified-Sciene) is easy, build the machinery and apply 250 MW to it or with beacons and modules 50 MW. (around 8 MW consum idle - better you disconnect)

outpost and stuff

[monty]

First of all i feel sorry for replying so late. Your response on the same day played the trick. So i didnt knew that someone replied.
Anyways, i didnt know that you were doing the coding work , that’s good to know.
And about the spoilers , it was my first time using them, but now I know how to use them.

I am new to the suggestion system so sometimes I don’t get the message delivered through like I think in my mind. I request u to be patient with that though. So I am going to go point wise to avoid misunderstanding as much as possible

0

I am personally a power production fan and have tried almost all major energy related mods. Its good to know that u have contributed to not only one but many of my top interesting mods on the topic. Your work as really been fun to experiment with, and I have changed some of the things in them after playing with them for sometime to suit my play style or simple for fun and experiment sake. Although I did find the last build on the atomic power a bit too rigid. I was hoping you would build something more generic and that could be used with other components. It wasn’t inadequate in itself, but the bigger they are, the more fun its to turn them in and around. I hope you will offer a more generic version too.

1

I think I have seen your build. I am hoping that this point was in reference to the second comment and the pic.
Since now that I know that ur the programmer for the codes then I will like to discuss it over with u(earlier I was planning to discuss it with youkitani). Earlier I thought that the whole steam cycle was unbalanced, using 5MW for steam generators. At that time I thought that it only produces mf. Later I found that it produces mf at high temp so I thought it was more balanced. Then I found that the temp of the fluid(water) at the outlet is not 15 and then I got confused. I mean its at and around 80. That cuts down on the fuel requirement, a lot. Although I did like the idea. Its almost like an electric boiler but to a lesser extent
5MW * 1 sec = 5 MJ
Maybe we could shift the balance of power even more, maybe increase the recipe time or something so that there is more ELECTRIC power/energy being used and LESSER thermal.

Although it’s a rough patch, I did 10 times the power consumption, increased to specific heat of mf 10 times too to balance the effect, and now one conversion cycle can power many more generators. Maybe I think that is a good thing cause in the growing power requirement, I found that this conversion isn’t incorrect to ur concept of torque, whereas it could be used to run much larger assembly. I would like ur opinion on it (cause 2x to 5x seem good and applicable), as it might increase the efficiency of the overall cycle. It does reduce the volume of a plant as it replaces the bulky boilers arrangements.

2

And that is exactly why I am so excited for it. I was waiting for so long for something like this. I won’t go all the way but I do get the basics of the system, the problem at hand and the wonderful solution that we now have as engine mod (although there were ample of explanations before hand too by yuoki).
I think that heat capacity , pressure and volume and velocity are very complex even without friction in themselves. And friction can be in generally reduced by lowering the conversion rates or lowering the overall transfer efficiency rather than calculation it for every step.

I do like the way things go inside the pipe. It’s a mystical equalizing unit. As soon as the temperature changes , the energy changes. As the energy changes , inertia changes. As inertia changes , equivalently (in reference to the effect of the change) , pressure changes. That changes the velocity of the fluid. Once the velocity changes , equivalently volume changes (more like specific volume).
So I think by defining the two ratio, “energy and flow” and specific heat, almost all the parameters have been touched. But this doesn’t apply exactly as adding heat and removing heat don’t really work in the same way. Also changing pressure in itself has not thermodynamic implications. Anyways that can be overlooked. After all changing only one parameter has made a pretty good generalization. This approach leads to some very good relations while experimenting.

And now I have the whole set , with mechanical force too. Its still new and I know that its only going to grow from now on. (and now that I know that the author is someone with experience in energy mod, I am sure that they will be developed sooner than I thought )

3

Exactly as u said. However I see rpm as more temperature than MF fluid, so our interpretations may differ a bit. I see MF fluid as nothing more than superimposed pipe
Specific heat >> torque required to change rpm
Rpm>>temperature of the MF
MF >> shaft or pipe (but since u need a pipe already so superimpose)(this is a compromise , bigger pipe are seen as caring smaller shaft within , but I see it as more mf means more mechanical inertia(more weight of the shaft). And it cant be bigger/larger than the pipe/shaft its inside)(the initial 15 temp acts as the minimum rpm of the shaft, so that it can be consumed by production machines)
But anyways, u cant pack it, so our results are exactly the same.(unless u want to pack them like iron plates with 0 temperature)

4

I agree with your interpretations completely.
I would like to advise an idea here. Heads up, it’s not convenient but more fun than the existing version.
I would like to split up the vanilla steam turbine/ generator into two different entities (well not exactly that item). Until now our hands were tied, but now we have the way.
If we could use the turbine to PROCESS the fluid to give out the MF which could be used in the a separate entity generator (used solely for MF(not function wise but design wise) , so make it much smaller and give out much larger energy (size varying from a vanilla boiler to assembly machine to largest at vanilla steam generator, and electricity generating in the order of 1 to 100 MW of power)). It would be a generator(just like the 50 MW), essentially with very small size, hopefully working only on MF. (now I am confident from the current design and ur own mod that this is something u can easily do).

And maybe we can now divide the efficiency of a turbine and make it vary with the temperature of the fluid being worked , making certain turbines more favorable for certain temperature range. And coupled with temperature measuring valves and other switches, maybe we can make a much more fun plant. And since the MF being produced can be edited in the control section and its no more a generator setting, then I think that should be possible to have a temperature dependent efficiency, or production capacity(amount of mf rpm(temperature) produced). Simply put since the turbines PRODUCE THE MF, we can alter this amount and/or its temperature and its equivalent to changing the efficiency. It doesn't needs to be defined degree by degree but maybe for range , like from 20%to 40% of max temp or from 40 to 65 c and such.

So to sum up, i was trying to say that maybe we can have MF as an output for all the other generators and turbines in this mod and energy mod, giving them more depth by varying the optimal temperature range to operate them under and maybe conditioning a specific temperature range, like 200 to 300 C , varying from turbine to turbine.

4 pic

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The major difference between this proposal and the current {water + energy>> steam+temp >water+temp +MF+temp) are

1) Current system is closed, its more like an assembly machine, more like one step heating.
2) It acts as an terminating point, and doesn't allows the PF(production fluid = steam) to pass through it to the next one like a generator.

The proposed version would be more a reverse heat exchanger , absorbing the required power from the flowing fluid in its fluid box , producing a certain amount of MF (maybe depending on the temperature or constant) and transfer a portion of the heat absorbed (depending on the efficiency (hopefully temperature dependent ) ) to the MF which goes into the generator, which is a very compact generator with a very high amount of power output.

Entities that influence the fluid type may be used at the terminating points, but should rather be open. What i mean from this is that something like super heater can be used to convert water to steam (changing the fluid type and fluid properties>>>specific heat and temperature range) but keeping the net stored energy same.
So essentially its like the pressurized water pump used for the pressurized water, but it also transfers the energy from the initial water to the final pressurized water, raising its temperature (but the net temperature of outlet vary on the change in specific heat) and after the turbine it does that in opposite manner,ie pressurized water to water. That way it will act as a terminating machine, but it wont STOP the generation process, so its OPEN.
The property changing entities should consume energy based on the latent heat and should give this back when reverting back.

The main concept behind this idea is that steam can store more energy in a process than water, so we make it a working fluid. After it has lost its energy, and the net energy stored reaches equal to the amount stored in water at 100 C or below(aimed at below), it acts as an "economizer and condensing unit" and convert it back to water.

For the current system of single step fluid consuming generator, the conversion step might be useless as the fluid gets consumed anyways. But since we cant separately control the pressure and temperature in this game, so i thought that this way we could make HP , IP AND LP turbines by changing their efficiency based on the range of temperature and changing their output. Also its coherent with the idea of temp above 15 (75 and such )in the existing system.
And since the turbines work on the efficiency based on temperature, the conversion could be as simple as between water(15 to 100) and steam/pressurized water(50 to 350), or it can be as robust as steam(LP) 95 to 300 C , steam (IP) 275 to 450 and steam(HP) 400 to 850 (or maybe all the way till 1200).

As for the transferring the energy while converting converting, i got it from the current setup.

5

I think that you should introduce a tank as flywheel. Asking not to store the MF is not a good thing as it’s sometimes needed for a continuous function. Also maybe u should introduce more splits in the MF. More like MF with different specific heat. Some can be used to run machines and other can be used to generate power. That would lower the need for storage. Since it has very high viscosity, it’s difficult to work without pumping and storing it even for very basic and small designs of power plants.
And if u scale things up by making a big plant for production of MF by liquid fuel or solid fuel machines, than “pumping them ” and storing them is an irreplaceable part. I planted a 16 liquid fuel to MF machines, no more than 4 are active even when the generators are MF starved. Infact u can see the drop in flow right after the gearbox in no more than 15 sections of pipe/shaft. It is one thing to demonstrate friction, but lets not push it so hard that it becomes too hard or unplayable.

6

This is another prime example of me not reaching through.

[quote="monty"]although i think that steam with the insane output is very unreal, but using another fluid with higher heat capacity to indirectly heat lower can work

for steam it can use more than 20 , 50MW generators in series, then go for discharge cycle.

for p water and water, or steam from this mod and water, the cycle can be 2 to 5, 50MW generators and then discharge[/quote]

The concept I was trying to use was not use of 1 MJ specific heat steam, but anything that could STORE large amount of heat per cycle to be used to indirectly heat a fluid to be CONSUMED for running power. In other words
(Volume) * (specific heat) *(temperature difference) > (50MJ)*(efficiency)

The max vol of 50MJ reactor is 3000, taking specific heat of 1KJ and temperature difference of85 degrees
(3000*1*85)=225,000 KJ=225 MJ
It will take 4+ pass with just water. That gives 4+ 50MW burners and 225(at 100%) energy extraction.

If we use a fluid like MF or steam {from this mod} (per unit of fluid)/(for 3000 unit)
0.75KJ*(380-30) steam 262KJ/787.5MJ
10KJ*(500-15) MF 4850KJ/14550MJ
Side note---
{Again I am not suggesting that MF should be used, as even steam with lower specific heat can provide more energy storage. And I don’t think increasing the range of steam higher is not unbalanced. I mean it can be made to reach 12000 degree c without any trouble. Although 0.75 is lower than actual, but then again so is for water and it’s still workable}

Conclusion – the underline idea is that at full consumption, even if we do generate the 3000 units of water, which is troublesome in itself, it won’t gain the raise in temperature from a single boiler. The heat exchanger is much better as not only does it work over a much more variable temperature range, it can accommodate and split the fluid energy along different paths, making it more convenient. (I had a 3 storage tank full of fluid as a reserve in case of fluctuation of power)

7

Again I am using ur cycle too.(by that I mean uranium one, ofcource I am also using the yuokitani). To the right of this is ur 30 MW generators that consume the water heated from this cycle. I tried to isolate it and integrate it with other mods, but the reactor is very rigid. Also maybe u should ease up the setting so as to make it more flexible. By the way ur pump and generator are a big hit, although I use them on water. The steam is from atomic power, and it’s a good mod too, just balance the MJ for steam. Other than this I think the steam in atomic mod is fairly good, with 1500 C temperature range, but only initial heating occurs and no subsequent heating so the mod needs work.

8

Again I would like to share and clarify my intentions.
Yes it’s a one way pipe, but at 50 volume, it’s actually not only just a valve, but also a diffuser(or kind off). Essentially a valve should have 0 volume, but leaving that aside. If it has same volume as 10, it works as a simple stop. Now it not only stops but slows it down too(in the flow direction). If u reduce it to 3, this valve becomes a pump (nozzle in theory , but effectively a pump)(in thermal difference). If there is a temperature difference, then it gives a head kick in on the flow, and for the rest of the pipe inertia does the work. For low viscosity fluid with 10+ temperature difference, it’s a no energy consumption pump. I am using it at 3 volume.

And even if u don’t want to use it as pump, having more volume (50) just hinders the flow and reduces the range of fluid and flow rate. It should atleast be reduced to 10 if not further for normal performance. Or is there some other reason that u use it at 50??

9 a

Let’s divided it into 2 parts cause I think I need to add some stuff here.
Before saying anything else, I want to thank u for this wonderful gift of heat exchanger. I am its biggest fan. This is according to me the most important individual unit in any energy mod. I have had so much fun with it that I sincerely wanted to thank u, but it seems that in blog/thread and maybe in your view it was not specifically anything too good. I didn’t find it being used anywhere so I thought that maybe people don’t use it so much. But my factorio experience really changed with it. It’s a wonderful tool. It is the single most important tool and the thing that I liked the most in your mod.


Now calming down a bit and continuing. Yes they are a bit more than needed. Although in this very case even the precaution is way more than needed. (for steam build)
Actually the major temperature difference is imparted by the initial heat exchanger, the remaining are just for equalizing in case the heat/temperature is not enough. Since in this build I am using steam WITH ITS INSANE 1MJ specific heat , so the contents of the pipe can actually heat up a lot. But I am actually running 32 50MW generators from this one.
After this one I ran about 96 of them with this setup and a little add on(the addon was for the production of pressurised water). And later I remover the setup on the top left. It seems that transporting pressurised water is difficult.
(on the side note, shouldn’t pressurized water be less viscous./but then we do have the simulation problem too, although I think its fine the way it is, I am using it same way anyways.)

Another side note—
{I did modify ur heat exchanger.
( It seems u wanted to incorporate the friction so u lowered the efficiency. U have no idea how bad it went. Actually maybe u just consider the loss per pass and not on the basis of the clock and the flow while doing so. The 98% according to u was actually loosing 2% energy. For the entire cycle that’s ok , but this was one pass per process(more like per tick or small no of ticks, depending on flow).
If u make a setup of 4x4pipes, removing the 4 pipes in the middle to get, or 3x3 setup removing the one in middle, and filled it with water and heat at one end, pass through the heat exchanger and consume it at other end, then there should be in initial guess about 90-98% range of the fuel consumed. That isn't the case. Even for the largest output and fastest consumption, it will take more than 3 pass of water in front of heat exchanger to bring down temperature below 20, and that is more like putting 2MJ fuel in the 50MW heat exchanger. even then the transfer was well below 10% of the heat imparted by the boiler. In a more general verson its well below 5 to 2%
Well, in this setup(4x4)even without the generator the entire temperature gets consumed in a matter of seconds. And by consume, I mean that the energy vanishes as it equalizes at 16 to 17 degrees, without pump, meaning in almost no flow condition .)

Anyways i increased the efficiency to 100%. I tried to get ur result of 98% per cycle, losing the entire for one compete pass . To get the efficiency needed to be 100 – 10^(4) order. So I set it to 100%. In return I made the max exchange of temperature lower(although that didn’t go very smoothly too, didn’t get the expected results ){I did it for 80% of temperature difference, but then removed it}

After this I did remove a lot of the exchangers with about 4 to 5 on the highly used lines and 2 or 3 on the less used lines.

9 b

I would highly recommend that u try this build, it’s really fun to experiment with. And I am not saying it just cause I made it or for the 50MJ boilers utility, it’s actually very good to measure a number of things like energy capacity and maximum energy that u can store while on the full flow. Since it uses no pumps on the CONSUMER side of the setup, it’s almost shows the natural energy exchange in this game. And u get some very interesting graph based on the fuel type, fluid type and fluctuation type. And I would like all my fellow energy and power plant interested gamers to try it out. Especially once experimenting with energy mods.

I initially developed it to measure the cycle parameters for two different type of cycles. I also use it for different fuel type and so on.

In my setup, the first and third and the second and the forth layers of boilers form a pair. Initially there were only 2 lines (later added 2 more as they weren’t enough). If u see the image 2, first one is used to heat the middle two exchangers setups (which also have steam in them), while the second one goes lower side to heat the flow directly. Initially I used the second one the ensure that the CF (consumption fluid ) exits at max temperature. But later(in the pic) I used it to directly heat an extra line as the demand for the fluid rose.
(I would like to mention that this setup is not contingent to using the 50MW boilers or using steam, although u should use two different fluids, and hopefully a fluid with higher max temp for the production line ).

Although it is much simpler than it looks. The line 1 heats up and store the energy in the 2 exchanger units in the middle, which heat the CF (consumption fluid).
The exchanger acts both as a buffer and threshold devise. It really helps setup an appropriate ratio between production part and consumption part. So u can see how much more energy u need to put in on the producer side or how much more u can add at consumer side.

Since the only variable at the exchanger is temperature (as flow and amount is constant) it’s really easy to monitor things.

The line 2 is actually a pass that ensures that if line 1 is not sufficient to heat the fluid then it kicks in. When u see this in action, the fluid is actually flowing at an amazing rate, so line one does get consumed very fast. (even for 1MJ steam, the temperature in line 1 fell from 440 range to 200 range). Although it won’t change so fast at the lower range (CF outlet temp was 350).
After making up for the deficient heat, it comes back up and the temperature again equalises with line one before going back into the boiler (not in the pic).
The concept of two heat exchanger setups here is to maintain one at higher temperature while other at lower. The lower one also uses the heat from line 2.

Side note—
{ I initially used to compare different cycles to see their performance. I heat the exchangers with different fluids PF (production) for different temperatures. That heat up the fluid. Then the remaining temperature was made up by boilers. (It was used to compare, smaller boilers heating only 40 and larger heating only 15 in full flow.)}

9 a pic

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Line 1
Line 2
Exchanger 1 and 2
exchanger 1 works at higher temperature than 2
Heat exchange with the lines and exchanger
line 2 sinks in into the exchanger 2 before going back for reheating, reducing load on line1

The exchangers without the lines can be used for comparing two different cycles.
The exchangers help extract more energy from line 1, even with the sinking from line 2 before exiting.

9 b 2X90 Boiler setup

this has 180 boilers, and 100+ Generators in set of 24 per consumption cycle

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9 c setup close up

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extra

I was actually hoping to get ur view on the gear assemble thing.
Since MF works on torque and Rotation and velocity, how about adding a gearing up assemble(a gear system-- basically an assembly unit / heat exchanging unit)
A pump/ pipe like devise, which aims at consuming the RPM from the inlets, and adding it to one outlet and equalizing it for the other outlet.
It basically increases the temperature on one end while reducing it on the other end(not so much as equalizing )

Since its MF, this could really help move into the mechanical world

Pipe setup

Setup 1
2 inlets 1 outlets
This is basically merging two different pipes with MF at different temperature.

Setup 2
2 inlets and 2 outlets

ga1.png (7.98 KiB) Viewed 11935 times

In this setup two different inputs are merged and one of them looses RPM(temperature )while the other end gains it.
Loss in one end equals gain in the other. The aim is to have the lower Rpm reach 15 and give the energy to the upper one. Another ratio can also be set which only transfers a set amount of RPM from them. Its more like having different assembly with DIFFERENT GEAR RATIO , the highest one harder to make. More like the MK 1,2 concept.

inlet 1 10 mf 200 c
inlet 2 10 mf 150 c
outlet 1 10 mf 335 c
outlet 2 10 mf 15 c

Setup 3
1 inlet and 2 outlets

ga 2.png (6.59 KiB) Viewed 11935 times

In this setup the energy is taken from one and a parameter ratio is set. the inlet is divided into two parts, one of which looses energy while the other gains it. the amount of the gain output can be made constant(fixed) or may vary based on the amount of fluid that can reach above a certain temperature. Again better machines can be made for different range of outputs.

inlet 1 10 mf 250 c =10*(250-15)=2350
outlet 1 500 c -- 2350/(500-15)=4.84 mf
outlet 2 15 c 5.16 MF

[monty]

This is the valve setting and its effect on flow (as pump)(look for water amount in right)

pic1

Before valve

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pic2

after valve

va1 - Copy.jpg (430.46 KiB) Viewed 11918 times

[bennybanana]

Very nice mod, lots of things to play with, but i need your help guys ... Gearboxes supposed to increase temp of the fluid, right?
Im confused - i put a line of gearboxes, filled up the first pipe with 15 fluid(temp was 100 - output from stirling engine), then turned gearboxes on and got fluid with temp 37 in the last pipe and temp 29 in pump. But if i use only one gearbox i get fluid with temp over 100

example

2016-02-11 11-07-12 Factorio 0.12.22.png (490.76 KiB) Viewed 10720 times

Is something wrong or it should be like this?

If i use shafts i get higher temperature but still for example temp on second gearbox output can me lower then the temp on the first gearbox output

[Fatmice]

Don't pump things out, let it leave the gearbox slowly.

[bennybanana]

On previous page Nasabot has already mentioned, that gearboxes are confising ... i guess i also dont understand the logic ...

If i remove pums and replace pipes with shafts i will still have temp loss. But if i just keep one gearbox and make a shafts loop from output to input of a gearbox, fill the loop with MF and turn it on the temp will keep increasing all the time. But it does not happen when there several gearboxes in one line ... something seems to be wrong or i aslo dont understand the logic

[Fatmice]

There is nothing confusing about the gearbox. It has two recipes, one exchanges lubricant, some MF, and some energy for hot MF, while another exchanges water, energy and MF for a bit less hot MF. If you want to use it effectively, you need to setup a loop where a fixed amount of MF remains within the gearboxes. The best way to do this is pipe MF into a tank then loop it back to the gearbox. You need to replenish MF though as the MF that gets looped back will diminish with each cycle. This is a "price" you pay to increase the temperature of the MF. Then you use a pump controlled by a wire on the tank to only activate when the tank has more than a certain amount of MF. If you want to know what MF actually is, then I encourage you to read the historical posts in this thread by me.

[bennybanana]

So far MF looks like a source of endless power, if you run gearbox with lubricant you can easily get 5 times more Mj then you use to prodice MF( i understand mod still needs a lot of balancing, so it is ok), with water around 1.6 - 2 times more beacause of the MF loss ... at least that what i was able to get, maybe you can get more even with water, but with water my output temp was again lower then input.

[Fatmice]

You need more retention in pipes so the output fluid-box has a chance to be modified. If the fluid from the output side is completely drained very quickly, then the temperature will drop or fluctuates wildly.

Depending on how you setup the MF, if you feed it correctly, then you can get a perpetual cycle. It is more fun to setup than tiling solars. Using water to generate hot MF is very tight in energy payoff. I don't think it can be perpetual if you use the motors to generate the initial MF and use vanilla steam-engines to generate power.

[YuokiTani]

You need more retention in pipes so the output fluid-box has a chance to be modified. If the fluid from the output side is completely drained very quickly, then the temperature will drop or fluctuates wildly.
Depending on how you setup the MF, if you feed it correctly, then you can get a perpetual cycle. It is more fun to setup than tiling solars. Using water to generate hot MF is very tight in energy payoff. I don't think it can be perpetual if you use the motors to generate the initial MF and use vanilla steam-engines to generate power.

E-Motors changed in last version, so you need at least 2 gearboxes in line to get a cycle - but at this point you can't take away energy so of course it depends on how you build your setup. in my experiments the setups also reacts very tense to load-changes and stop completly if you run out of MF ... needs after stop also handwork to start again or a automated start-setup.

[Fatmice]

So far MF looks like a source of endless power, if you run gearbox with lubricant you can easily get 5 times more Mj then you use to prodice MF( i understand mod still needs a lot of balancing, so it is ok), with water around 1.6 - 2 times more beacause of the MF loss ... at least that what i was able to get, maybe you can get more even with water, but with water my output temp was again lower then input.

E-Motors changed in last version, so you need at least 2 gearboxes in line to get a cycle - but at this point you can't take away energy so of course it depends on how you build your setup. in my experiments the setups also reacts very tense to load-changes and stop completly if you run out of MF ... needs after stop also handwork to start again or a automated start-setup.

Here's a perpetual build

Endless Energy With Gearbox

Perpetual.jpg (898.61 KiB) Viewed 11748 times

• Orange pump sets to pump when Flow-Trigger has < 5 units of fluid
• Red pump sets to pump when Flow-Trigger has > 9 units of fluid
• Each build can support 600 KW of continuous generation. Never needs repriming or manual restarts. Just needs water and the initial jolt with a solar panel.
• Temperature will tends toward 500C as the thing runs.

[YuokiTani]

Here's a perpetual build

Endless Energy With Gearbox

Perpetual.jpg

• Orange pump sets to pump when Flow-Trigger has < 5 units of fluid
• Red pump sets to pump when Flow-Trigger has > 9 units of fluid
• Each build can support 600 KW of continuous generation. Never needs repriming or manual restarts. Just needs water and the initial jolt with a solar panel.
• Temperature will tends toward 500C as the thing runs.

very nice and a good use of the flow-triggers - power transfer is limited with accumulators
i'am sure most people are 600kW to less and go more greedy
How long do you take to figure this setup out and testing ?

[Fatmice]

The one in the picture is 1200KW as I tiled two of them. If you want more, just tile more, kind of like a solar setup that works day/night. It actually is better than a solar setup by a factor of 1.5x. It took me four hours to revise it down to the final build.

This setup is great for outposts if you don't want to drag power out to them. The setup does generate pollution though, so biters might come

If you look carefully, what I setup is essentially a heat exchange.

[bennybanana]

This setup is great for outposts if you don't want to drag power out to them. The setup does generate pollution though, so biters might come

The only problem in your setup is that you need to limit the maximum power output per setup, otherwiswe if you load it too much, you will start loosing temp and fluid, and then the setup will stop working and it will not be so great for your outpost ... so it is better to use 2-3 SS-Turbines, (depends on how many motors you use and if you boost the motors with beacons or not)

[Fatmice]

The only problem in your setup is that you need to limit the maximum power output per setup, otherwiswe if you load it too much, you will start loosing temp and fluid, and then the setup will stop working and it will not be so great for your outpost ... so it is better to use 2-3 SS-Turbines, (depends on how many motors you use and if you boost the motors with beacons or not)

There is no problem with my setup. You need to pay careful attention to how I wired it. The basic accumulators are for bleeding heat from the system in a controlled manner to limit the energy output. Using SS-Turbine will lower the amount of energy you can get out of the setup so that is why I used Rensuir turbine as it is the most efficient out of all the turbines. Never boost motors with beacons, as you only get net negative cycles. You complained that the gearbox was hard to use so I gave you a working build that is perfect and ready to use.