[MOD 1.1] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

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chlue
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.1 - All things Alien!

Post by chlue »

Hello TheSAguy, I currently play with this mod and have some points to share:

Note: I am still on 0.12.10 and version 5.0 of your mods

Terraforming station:

- In the function GetFactorPerTerraformingStation you got the loop wrong and as result you add up one station too much. You see this by having a return value bigger than one.
So the code should be 'for i = 1, (numTerraformingStations - 1) do' here.
I propose to set the scaling value back to 0.90 as in 0.4.4. With 0.85 they get meaningless very fast.

- The reduction for the terratorming station in 'on_event(defines.events.on_sector_scanned' is not good.
My evolution factor ingame dropped to 0 and stayed there. Reason is that in the early game the stations are very overpowered and if the evolution factor is very low you set the evolution factor back to 0, but the reduction can be much more than a single terraforming station scan. I propose to change the logic to this:

Code: Select all

reduction = ((0.000125 * global.factormultiplier) * game.evolution_factor * (1 - game.evolution_factor))
if game.evolution_factor > reduction then
  game.evolution_factor = game.evolution_factor - reduction
else
  game.evolution_factor = .0001
end
This contains two changes:
- the reductions is calculated first and applied as long as suitable. v5.0.0 sets the evolution factor to 0.0001 once you are below 5% which is plain insane if you ever get there.
- I additionally scaled the reduction by game.evolution_factor. This may be a bit of a too hard nerf, but currently they are plainly overpowered. If no biter bases are within pollution range anymore the evolution factor will drop to 0 even with only 2 stations. Making the reductions globally weaker will likely make then useless with a more aggressive play style, so scaling it with the evolution factor seems like the most sensible approach. But I guess to balance this better checking the effect on a polluting base with a evolution factor around 70% is necessary. I propose to change it as above and wait for complains that they are underpowered ;-)


Spitter Spawner / Alien Hatchery:

- From what I can tell the friendly "Natural_Evolution_Spitter-Spawner" spawner has a faulty spawn table and only spawn biters. (In /Natural_Evolution_Buildings_5.0.0/prototypes/Alien_Hatchery/entity.lua).

- Additionally I think it would be nice if the spawn table would not be based on the enemy evolution factor and instead on which units for the hatchery are unlocked. At least my problem currently is that only small biters spawn and they cannot damage enemy structures due to their high resistances, but in my playtrough my player progress is currently imba due to the issues with the terraforming station above. I guess if this is fixed one may not even notice this.

- I think the units in the alien hatchery are way to expensive. They die fast after all in used in combat.

- It would be nice if the spawners and worms could be deconstructed. This could make them overpowered so to balance this they could yield something which needs to be re-infused by some alien artifacts before they can be placed again. Not sure if the api allows this trough.

- It would be nice to have a range indication for the mind control station similar as for the artifact collector while placing. For my taste the range is generally too low, but I didn't really tested it much

- Mind controlled and self build alien units are invisible on the map. Not sure if you can do anything against this.


So far that are my points. Still enjoy the mod trough :-)
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.1 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

Chlue,
First off, thanks for your feedback!! It's few and far between :)
I'm pretty slammed at work and have limited time to test/play/improve at the moment.
chlue wrote:Hello TheSAguy, I currently play with this mod and have some points to share:

Note: I am still on 0.12.10 and version 5.0 of your mods
I''m actually also playing on 12.10.

chlue wrote: Terraforming station:

- In the function GetFactorPerTerraformingStation you got the loop wrong and as result you add up one station too much. You see this by having a return value bigger than one.
So the code should be 'for i = 1, (numTerraformingStations - 1) do' here.
Thanks, I thought I wrote some code to fix this. Not as easy a fix as you have. I had "if factormultiplier >1, then it's = 1"
I'll implement your fix!
chlue wrote: I propose to set the scaling value back to 0.90 as in 0.4.4. With 0.85 they get meaningless very fast.

- The reduction for the terratorming station in 'on_event(defines.events.on_sector_scanned' is not good.
My evolution factor ingame dropped to 0 and stayed there. Reason is that in the early game the stations are very overpowered and if the evolution factor is very low you set the evolution factor back to 0, but the reduction can be much more than a single terraforming station scan. I propose to change the logic to this:

Code: Select all

reduction = ((0.000125 * global.factormultiplier) * game.evolution_factor * (1 - game.evolution_factor))
if game.evolution_factor > reduction then
  game.evolution_factor = game.evolution_factor - reduction
else
  game.evolution_factor = .0001
end
This contains two changes:
- the reductions is calculated first and applied as long as suitable. v5.0.0 sets the evolution factor to 0.0001 once you are below 5% which is plain insane if you ever get there.
- I additionally scaled the reduction by game.evolution_factor. This may be a bit of a too hard nerf, but currently they are plainly overpowered. If no biter bases are within pollution range anymore the evolution factor will drop to 0 even with only 2 stations. Making the reductions globally weaker will likely make then useless with a more aggressive play style, so scaling it with the evolution factor seems like the most sensible approach. But I guess to balance this better checking the effect on a polluting base with a evolution factor around 70% is necessary. I propose to change it as above and wait for complains that they are underpowered ;-)
Man, the Terraforming station is a tricky building. It's so much fun, but can also be totally OP and game breaking.
So there are 3, factor that control the evolution deduction:
How long it takes to scan a sector.
The formula to calculate the deduction
and the decrease in efficiency of additional stations.
and possibly a fourth indirect factor would be the power consumption, since with coal you'd have high pollution and with solar you'd have none.

So how to balance these....

First off, I'd rather have it be under-powered that Over Powered, since OP is game breaking to me.

I like where you're heading with your code. Let me do some math numbers in excel when I have a moment and I'll see. maybe up the fixed value of '0.000125'.

Not sure hoe you gt to a evolution factor of 0? It should only start deducting once you're over 5% and the max deduction should only be then (0.000125 * 1) = 0.0002375. Not sure what I'm missing. Might be something wrong with the
else game.evolution_factor = .0001 part of my code...
chlue wrote: Spitter Spawner / Alien Hatchery:

- From what I can tell the friendly "Natural_Evolution_Spitter-Spawner" spawner has a faulty spawn table and only spawn biters. (In /Natural_Evolution_Buildings_5.0.0/prototypes/Alien_Hatchery/entity.lua).
Yip, bug. Will be fixed. Thanks.
chlue wrote: - Additionally I think it would be nice if the spawn table would not be based on the enemy evolution factor and instead on which units for the hatchery are unlocked. At least my problem currently is that only small biters spawn and they cannot damage enemy structures due to their high resistances, but in my playtrough my player progress is currently imba due to the issues with the terraforming station above. I guess if this is fixed one may not even notice this.

- I think the units in the alien hatchery are way to expensive. They die fast after all in used in combat.
The Spawners one can build work great, since they spawn according to the evolution factor.
The problem with the units you can build, and the reason I made them so expensive is that you could have a Behemoth biter at evolution 5% if you wanted...

So I made them pretty expensive since there is no control over when you can build them, they are not limited to the evolution factor...
chlue wrote: - It would be nice if the spawners and worms could be deconstructed. This could make them overpowered so to balance this they could yield something which needs to be re-infused by some alien artifacts before they can be placed again. Not sure if the api allows this trough.
I'm pretty sure it's a game limitation.
chlue wrote: - It would be nice to have a range indication for the mind control station similar as for the artifact collector while placing. For my taste the range is generally too low, but I didn't really tested it much
On my to do list, but it's not as easy... It's just a graphic, so can also not be dynamic if you change the radius.
chlue wrote: - Mind controlled and self build alien units are invisible on the map. Not sure if you can do anything against this.
Vanilla game issue. I'll open a ticket when I get some time.
chlue wrote: So far that are my points. Still enjoy the mod trough :-)
Thanks!!
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.1 - All things Alien!

Post by chlue »

Hello,

Ok switched to 0.12.12 in the meantime. No new issues so far with v5.0.1

Regarding the terraforming station:
TheSAguy wrote: Not sure hoe you gt to a evolution factor of 0? It should only start deducting once you're over 5% and the max deduction should only be then (0.000125 * 1) = 0.0002375. Not sure what I'm missing. Might be something wrong with the
else game.evolution_factor = .0001 part of my code...
Yep thats plain wrong then. If you want to have the station stop below 5% then keep the else path empty. You are currently setting the evolution to 0 there. But I like my scaling approach better. 'If'-clauses to deactivate a functionality at a certain arbitrary threshold are evil ;)

TheSAguy wrote: The problem with the units you can build, and the reason I made them so expensive is that you could have a Behemoth biter at evolution 5% if you wanted...
Damn you, now I want one. :twisted:

TheSAguy wrote:
chlue wrote: - It would be nice if the spawners and worms could be deconstructed. This could make them overpowered so to balance this they could yield something which needs to be re-infused by some alien artifacts before they can be placed again. Not sure if the api allows this trough.
I'm pretty sure it's a game limitation.
Game limitation you say? Ok I bite. Attached is my proof of concept code:
- The small worm can be mined
- is no longer repaired by my logistic drones
- shows up on the minimap
- a mined worm is 'exhausted' and needs a infusion by an alien artifact in the hatchery before it can be mined again.
If you like it I can clean this up and apply it for all three worm types. (Will most likely do it locally anyway :-) )
TheSAguy wrote:
chlue wrote: - Mind controlled and self build alien units are invisible on the map. Not sure if you can do anything against this.
Vanilla game issue. I'll open a ticket when I get some time.
see above
Attachments
Natural_Evolution_Buildings_5.0.1_MineableSmallWorm.zip
proof of concept code
(1.25 MiB) Downloaded 246 times
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

Version V 5.0.2 up.

Call this the Chlue update!

Worms and Spawners are now Mine-able
Tweaked Terraformaing Station Values.
Fixed bug where Spitter Spawner only spawned biters. (Man made Spawner, not vanilla)

Only updated Factorio 12.12 one, not 12.10.

Thanks.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by eidalac »

Hey got a bug to report - loving the mod so far though, as brutal as it has been.

After about 83 hours of play, I'm changing the layout of my base after an ugly 'war' to get access to a tin mine (also have bobs mods) about 2500 blocks away from my base.

My current Evolution level is about 73%, so I've been hanging back now to let my terraforming stations reduce it a bit.

As part of the re-design, I moved a terraforming station and so far about 2/3 of the time i place it back down my evolution spike to 100% and waves of bitters start raining down - luckily I had an auto save 2 minutes prior to it happening.

I'm about to update to the current version (I had 5.0.2), since I see you tweaked those, but I don't think those changes would affect the placement. Nothing in the LUA code stands out to me.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

eidalac wrote:Hey got a bug to report - loving the mod so far though, as brutal as it has been.

After about 83 hours of play, I'm changing the layout of my base after an ugly 'war' to get access to a tin mine (also have bobs mods) about 2500 blocks away from my base.

My current Evolution level is about 73%, so I've been hanging back now to let my terraforming stations reduce it a bit.

As part of the re-design, I moved a terraforming station and so far about 2/3 of the time i place it back down my evolution spike to 100% and waves of bitters start raining down - luckily I had an auto save 2 minutes prior to it happening.

I'm about to update to the current version (I had 5.0.2), since I see you tweaked those, but I don't think those changes would affect the placement. Nothing in the LUA code stands out to me.
Hmm, that does sound a little unusual...
Could you give me a save game? Also, have you build the Rocket Silo? The Evo will go up once it's built.
What version of the mod did you start your game on. There could also be a problem if you came from 4.4. to 5.

Thanks.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by eidalac »

TheSAguy wrote:Hmm, that does sound a little unusual...
Could you give me a save game? Also, have you build the Rocket Silo? The Evo will go up once it's built.
What version of the mod did you start your game on. There could also be a problem if you came from 4.4. to 5.

Thanks.
Sure, save is attached - there is terraformer just a bit to the left that I noticed the issue with. Haven't seen any problems since I changed to 5.0.2.

I did start on 4.4 (I know that the Bio ammo was in when I started, and that's the version it was added in). I've updated this and Bobs Mods since starting.

And not anywhere near the silo, still working on getting level 4 science packs.
Attachments
mod-list.json
mods lists
(2.49 KiB) Downloaded 276 times
BobsMods73percent.zip
Save just before it happened.
(13.1 MiB) Downloaded 232 times
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

eidalac wrote:
TheSAguy wrote:Hmm, that does sound a little unusual...
Could you give me a save game? Also, have you build the Rocket Silo? The Evo will go up once it's built.
What version of the mod did you start your game on. There could also be a problem if you came from 4.4. to 5.

Thanks.
Sure, save is attached - there is terraformer just a bit to the left that I noticed the issue with. Haven't seen any problems since I changed to 5.0.2.

I did start on 4.4 (I know that the Bio ammo was in when I started, and that's the version it was added in). I've updated this and Bobs Mods since starting.

And not anywhere near the silo, still working on getting level 4 science packs.
Eidalac,

Nice base. That's one long rail you got going... :)

I found 3 Terraformaing stations on the map, but the game currently only thinks you have 1.
You need to force global.numTerraformingStations = 3.

I'm not 100% sure how to do this. something like '/c game.global.numTerraformingStations = 3' thought that did not work.
Anyone know how one forces a global variable to something?

Though, even with the numTerraformingStations wrong, it should not affect the game to much. You will actually just get a slightly higher evolution deduction.
EDIT: You can use the attached N.E. Buildings control. Mine your 3 T-stations and place them down again.
Just added the below code to prevent the number from going below 0.

Code: Select all

	if global.numTerraformingStations < 0 then
		global.numTerraformingStations = 0
	end
Attachments
control.lua
N.E. Buildings Control
(14.92 KiB) Downloaded 415 times
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by chlue »

TheSAguy wrote: I found 3 Terraformaing stations on the map, but the game currently only thinks you have 1.
You need to force global.numTerraformingStations = 3.
I feared that something like that can happen while playing around with your code. I propose to clamp the value of global.numTerraformingStations to 0 in the On_Remove function.

Code: Select all

if global.numTerraformingStations > 0 then
  global.numTerraformingStations = global.numTerraformingStations - 1
else
  global.numTerraformingStations = 0
end
If global.numTerraformingStations ever gets negative the function GetFactorPerTerraformingStation will return a very harmful value, as seem to has happened for eidalac. So doing above change and tearing down all terraforming stations before rebuilding them should fix the number as long as the number is too low.

I don't know how to fix a too high number trough. One could temporary set the decrement value to -3, tear down all stations, set the decrement back to 1 and rebuild them, but then its most likely easier to find out how to affect the variable ingame,...
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by eidalac »

TheSAguy wrote: Nice base. That's one long rail you got going... :)
Yup, sorting system for every Bobs Mod ore. I think it's 3x as long now that it's finished, lol.
TheSAguy wrote: I found 3 Terraformaing stations on the map, but the game currently only thinks you have 1.
You need to force global.numTerraformingStations = 3.
....
EDIT: You can use the attached N.E. Buildings control. Mine your 3 T-stations and place them down again.
Just added the below code to prevent the number from going below 0.
Ok, I'll give that a shot in a bit. I figured it was something to due with a value going negative, and IIRC, that was the original station I built.
chlue wrote: I don't know how to fix a too high number trough. One could temporary set the decrement value to -3, tear down all stations, set the decrement back to 1 and rebuild them, but then its most likely easier to find out how to affect the variable ingame,...
You'd need something like this:

Code: Select all

remote.add_interface("nevo", {
	-- remote.call("nevo", "TerraReset", number)
	TerraReset = function(new_count)
		if new_count < 0 then
                     global.numTerraformingStations = 0
                else if new_count >= MAX_TERRA
                    global.numTerraformingStations = MAX_TERRA
                else
                    global.numTerraformingStations = new_count
	end
}
With MAX_TERRA defined somewhere as sanity cap on the max number of stations that the mod will make use of. Something in the 30-40 range probably - if you have more stations than the value of each new one is < 1% of the first, if my math is right.

EDIT:
Ok, here is a modified control.lua file that adds some value checking on load (global.numTerraformingStations and global.factormultiplier both set to 0 if less than 0) and adds the remote calls:

/c remote.call("nevo", TerraReset, <number>)
and
/c remote.call("nevo", TerraCount)

The formatting on the return text from TerraCount is screwy, but you can see the number. I don't know the string functions in LUA well enough to correct it atm.
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control.lua
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

eidalac wrote: EDIT:
Ok, here is a modified control.lua file that adds some value checking on load (global.numTerraformingStations and global.factormultiplier both set to 0 if less than 0) and adds the remote calls:

/c remote.call("nevo", TerraReset, <number>)
and
/c remote.call("nevo", TerraCount)

The formatting on the return text from TerraCount is screwy, but you can see the number. I don't know the string functions in LUA well enough to correct it atm.
Eidalac, I get an error when I run "/c remote.call("nevo", TerraCount)"
I just type that in the console, correct? Thanks for the edits. I'll include them in the next release.

Your sorting system was cool to look at. I've attached mine save so you could look at my sorting system.
We use almost all the same Mods, you will just need to get the larger box mod and equalizer chests. That's all you'll need to load my save and look at the sorting setup.


P.S. I think the Terraforming stations are decreasing a little too much. I'm going to cut it slightly in the next release.
Last edited by TheSAguy on Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.2 - All things Alien!

Post by eidalac »

TheSAguy wrote: Eidalac, I get an error when I run "/c remote.call("nevo", TerraCount)"
Yeah, it's cause I have the string formatting wrong, but I'm not fluent enough in LUA to see what dumb I'm pulling.
TheSAguy wrote: Your sorting system was cool to look at. I've attached mine save so you could look at my sorting system.
Yeah, I found it on imagur (I'll try and find the link) and been building a base around the idea.

May not be playing much this week, but I'll have a look over yours when I fire it up again.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

Version 5.0.3 up.
Just slight tweaks to balancing.

Enemies:
Infected biters have higher resistance to Physical and Mutated biters higher to Laser.

Buildings:
Terraforming Station does slightly less Evo deduction.

Expansion:
Pollution spreads a little further.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by chlue »

Hello,

I started a new game and tested the placeable worms in combat and the result was quiet underwhelming.
So I have buffed them like this:
- made cheaper
- add resistance similar to armor (values from "basic-armor", "heavy-armor" and "power-armor")
- doubled HP
- increase selfhelf so they fully heal over 5min
- increased shooting frequent of the medium and big variant
Note: The small worm actually has the best raw dps (4 * 10) in vanilla (medium: 0.6*30), but player armor and resistance normally makes the difference. Against an incoming swarm of lvl1 spitters this in a completely different story trough.

Additionally i heavily messed around with the hatchery, because I found that I only use one and just change the recipe on demand and put in the mats by hand.
- add three new liquids: "NE_nutrient-solution", "NE_revitalization-solution", "NE_enhanced-nutrient-solution" used in the recipes now
- made units vastly cheaper
- build times increased by factor of 10

Building them now looks something like this (I have not researched all):
NE_hatchery.png
NE_hatchery.png (1.72 MiB) Viewed 8495 times
To produce new units some alien artifacts (and building material in case of hives) are still necessary, but the rest is purely based on liquids and time.

If you (partially) like the changes I clean this up and create a github pull request as before. So far my current folder is attached for reference too, but beware that this is meant to be used with 0.12.10 and there are no migration scripts, so it will not work with an existing game out of the box.
Attachments
Natural_Evolution_Buildings_5.0.0.zip
local variant with changes from 5.0.2 and the changes above (I play currently on 0.12.10)
(1.17 MiB) Downloaded 275 times
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by chlue »

Ok pull request for above change created on github.

I playtested 200 big worms against a huge enemy base. Raised the evolution factor from 45% to around 55%, but 'Wormcreep' is definite possible like this and a lot of fun, but I think I didn't get enough alien artifacts back to place them again and regrew the looses, so I would still call this balanced even if they don't need ammunition or energy while fighting. Apart from this the worms are great to support normal defences to take the first hit due to the regeneration. Laser towers still blow them away with respect to dps.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by hoho »

This mod has a compatibility problem with science overhaul mod: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=14294

That mod changes the ingredients of science packs. Natural selection tries to double the cost of science packs but assumes they use the vanilla-items. In the end the packs will cost both science overhaul ingredients and whatever this mod adds.

Perhaps it would make more sense to just double the ingredient count of the science pack instead of trying to remove the old ingredients just to add them back with double count (or to just disable the doubling when science cost mod is detected)?
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

hoho wrote:This mod has a compatibility problem with science overhaul mod: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=14294

That mod changes the ingredients of science packs. Natural selection tries to double the cost of science packs but assumes they use the vanilla-items. In the end the packs will cost both science overhaul ingredients and whatever this mod adds.

Perhaps it would make more sense to just double the ingredient count of the science pack instead of trying to remove the old ingredients just to add them back with double count (or to just disable the doubling when science cost mod is detected)?
Thanks hoho,
For now, just turn off the additional science cost in the config.lua
Set "NE.ScienceCost = false"
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by Airat9000 »

:D :D bug
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.3 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

Airat9000 wrote::D :D bug
What were you doing? I can't re-create the bug.
Thanks.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Natural Evolution v5.0.4 - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy »

Version 5.0.4 up.

Added chlue new recipes.
I finished my first game with N.E. V5+, Bob's and RSO, so decided to add a difficulty setting to NE Enemies. Normal and Hard. Hard gives the enemy double health and resistance. Default is Normal.

Image
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