Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

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Tomik
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Tomik » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:04 pm

Klonan wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:11 pm
obuw wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:47 pm
It would be great if you just set everything in the base game to 100% efficiency, and omitted the info from the tooltip if it's 100%. So anyone playing vanilla would not see the info at all, but if a mod adds something with, say, 70% efficiency, or 120% efficiency, it would show up as part of the tooltip.
Thats what we did, the functionality still exists
obuw wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:47 pm
As for resistance streamlining: As long as it is possible to add new resistance types through modding, I don't mind them being streamlined in the base game. But if we're stuck with four resistance types, it's going to make combat a lot less interesting.
We are just removing some of the base game categories, mods can still add/amend/remove as they please
Look. I mostly play vanilla. Which means 99 percent of the time I would play the game as you intended. Without the pickaxe. I do not mind any other change you did but one. The pickaxe. Not because I like the mods with it but because I love the Mod/DIY spirit of the community and this is basically saying: We do not want you to play this game as you did for the last 7 years.

What?!

This is a matter of principle.

I do not understand why you had to remove the code for it in the UI. I thought the game code was enough malleable that if you truly were interested in gameplay balance and simplification you could have just put an off switch into the code and be done with it and simply say to modders: "Hey, the pickaxe UI code is at Line X, you can use it in modded games but vanilla stays this way. Sorry, out of luck.".

Were there stability issues with the game code of the new GUI you are making? Would it have been crashing the UI and the game if the deactivated pickaxe UI code had stayed in the game?
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posila
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by posila » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm

Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.

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Tomik
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Tomik » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 pm

posila wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm
Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.
So years ago if I get it right?
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by ske » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:38 pm

posila wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm
Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.
You'd have to bury it but then you'd need a shovel to fill up the hole and where would the shovel go?

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by featherwinglove » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:35 am

Tomik wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:04 pm
I mostly play vanilla. Which means 99 percent of the time I would play the game as you intended. Without the pickaxe. I do not mind any other change you did but one. The pickaxe. Not because I like the mods with it but because I love the Mod/DIY spirit of the community and this is basically saying: We do not want you to play this game as you did for the last 7 years.

What?!

This is a matter of principle.
posila wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm
Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.
I agree with Tomik, and for the reasons I explained earlier, it really is a matter of principle, and went into considerable depth. Removing the axe is not just a stupid idea, it's a damned stupid idea. Wube's first AAA-league gaffe and hopefully, rather than a sign of things to come, you guys listening to your dedicated players and your modders, including especially your single biggest modder, is the real sign of things to come. At this point, I seriously hesitate recommending this game to my friends because you haven't listened. That isn't a threat, just that the removal of the axe and your attitude in this thread wells up like bile in my mind and that flavour in my throat whenever I want to discuss Factorio with someone who hasn't made the purchase.

When I first saw the FFF, I thought maybe it was just me, but that didn't make much sense with Bob's progression of axes. Then I jumped blindly into this thread with my thoughts, which are shared by just about everyone whose name in the thread is orange. It feels like you've betrayed us.

Let me fast-forward to the first experimental, then first stable, release of 0.17. It is very likely that those of us active in the forum and religiously reading the FFFs are in the minority, especially since I myself often take breaks long enough from Factorio to miss most of a major version's updates. There are probably a lot of people out there who probably don't know this is coming down the pipe yet, who probably don't preserve old download files and installations (I'm curious as to what % of the downloads are *.msi) and this is going to blindside them. They are going to update Factorio one day, start a new game and attempt to craft the axe and go "Wut??" Some will probably welcome the change, but I'm pretty sure most are going to be perplexed and confused, even if they eventually come around. There might be a whole bunch who mod just as much as I do, but simply don't hang out in the forums. There are probably going to be a few who finally get bored of Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee, put the Switch down, (it seems like that and RDR2 are the only good AAA games of 2018) and boot up Factorio for the first time in months. And there's going to be something missing...

Put the axe back.

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Lubricus
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Lubricus » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:34 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:35 am
Tomik wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:04 pm
I mostly play vanilla. Which means 99 percent of the time I would play the game as you intended. Without the pickaxe. I do not mind any other change you did but one. The pickaxe. Not because I like the mods with it but because I love the Mod/DIY spirit of the community and this is basically saying: We do not want you to play this game as you did for the last 7 years.

What?!

This is a matter of principle.
posila wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:29 pm
Decision to remove pickaxe was done before new game view GUI was designed, and new game view GUI design doesn't have pickaxe slot. So that's why we can't just hide it - we would have to put it somewhere first, and then hide it.
I agree with Tomik, and for the reasons I explained earlier, it really is a matter of principle, and went into considerable depth. Removing the axe is not just a stupid idea, it's a damned stupid idea. Wube's first AAA-league gaffe and hopefully, rather than a sign of things to come, you guys listening to your dedicated players and your modders, including especially your single biggest modder, is the real sign of things to come. At this point, I seriously hesitate recommending this game to my friends because you haven't listened. That isn't a threat, just that the removal of the axe and your attitude in this thread wells up like bile in my mind and that flavour in my throat whenever I want to discuss Factorio with someone who hasn't made the purchase.

When I first saw the FFF, I thought maybe it was just me, but that didn't make much sense with Bob's progression of axes. Then I jumped blindly into this thread with my thoughts, which are shared by just about everyone whose name in the thread is orange. It feels like you've betrayed us.

Let me fast-forward to the first experimental, then first stable, release of 0.17. It is very likely that those of us active in the forum and religiously reading the FFFs are in the minority, especially since I myself often take breaks long enough from Factorio to miss most of a major version's updates. There are probably a lot of people out there who probably don't know this is coming down the pipe yet, who probably don't preserve old download files and installations (I'm curious as to what % of the downloads are *.msi) and this is going to blindside them. They are going to update Factorio one day, start a new game and attempt to craft the axe and go "Wut??" Some will probably welcome the change, but I'm pretty sure most are going to be perplexed and confused, even if they eventually come around. There might be a whole bunch who mod just as much as I do, but simply don't hang out in the forums. There are probably going to be a few who finally get bored of Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee, put the Switch down, (it seems like that and RDR2 are the only good AAA games of 2018) and boot up Factorio for the first time in months. And there's going to be something missing...

Put the axe back.
I don't care about the axe at all. It's like they have said you craft it once and forget it until it wears out and you get annoyed about the fact you have to craft a bunch again.
Mods can have different tools you hold in the hand (would be appropriate for the stone age mod) or just do as vanilla and have the mining tool as a straight up tech research. If I hadn't played factorio in a while I probably don't even had noticed that the axe are gone, it's so insignificant to the game-play.
I agree that it's in the step to clean up mechanics and make the game more accessible many developers fail and remove important mechanics and dumb down the game. So I was scared of the title of the FFF but when reading the changes, I am fine with them. Do you actually think the the axe is is an important part of the game or is it just a knee jerk reaction because all the stupidities other developers have done to other games?

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