How do I save UPS for megabase?

[KAA]

Hi Factorians!
I haven't found comprehensive answer to this one however I'm sure that some of you have deep knowledge on the topic.
So, I'm calling for your experience or just throw me a link if I missed such topic and it already exists.

I completed the game several times, from 0.16 to 1.1 and sometimes my bases were so big they had impact on UPS and I had to stop expanding because of this.
And now I have a goal to proceed to some kind of base of a such scale, as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etMx0sI4_Uo
But I'm not sure my PC will handle it so I'd like not to make much of stuff that is UPS heavy.

So, my question is: What I should do and what should not in order to save UPS for later stages?

As an example:
- Items on the ground are UPS heavy, so use chests for exchange.
- Belts consume UPS so the more underground I use the better UPS I get.
and so on.
This in a kind of advises I look forward to hear.
I hope it does make sense until now )

In particular, but not limited to:
1. Does concrete use UPS or save it? should I do large concrete-covered areas or it's a "no go" for performance? I like concrete but...
2. Should I prefer build like X factories + Y beacons or lesser factories and more beacons?
3. Large "as-fast-as-possible" loading/unloading stations (like remote ore smelter) - bots or balanced belts? I have 2 smelter blocks now by 1500 bots each and I plan to double it.
4. Mining outpost rail stations: bots or belts?
5. If some part of my base if idle (like weaponry/kovarex/circuits) - should I power it off and power on for activity only or such approach does not save UPS?
6. Does putting balancers whether I can is heavy on UPS or no significant impact?
7. Should I remove visible on the map trees/rocks/cliffs? Pollution is not a concern, the more biters attack me the more I'm having fun with all great war techs )))
8. I assume that of two options:

a) Smelter is getting ore and processes it with the speed that is just enough for current consumption level, so works more or less steady all the time
b) Smelter has a huge throughput and smelts everything as quick as it can, store in a large buffer, that provides output for like 15 mins of game, than turns on again, processes, shuts down.

Approach B is more UPS friendly? (Scale is like 8 blue belts per smelter, and there are 3 of them)

9. p.8 but for oil+solid fuel factory

Please add your own tips.

I hope my questions make sense and will be happy to hear you thoughts.

[Serenity]

It really depends on the scale you build at. 1000 or 2000 SPM is a megabase too. And doesn't necessarily need extreme amounts of optimization.

You certainly don't need to worry about nonsense like visible trees if you have pollution or biters activated in the first place.

You probably shouldn't do what Nilaus does and build a gigantic bot network that covers everything. That's very bad. And yet it can work. Which again shows that you don't need to prematurely optimize every detail without knowing what your PC can handle.

[NotRexButCaesar]

This is all “to the best of my knowledge,” so please don’t take it as scripture.

As an example:
- Belts consume UPS so the more underground I use the better UPS I get.

No: this is how it used to work before belts were optimized, when undergrounds “teleported” items; they should now be essentially equivalent as long as there are no gaps.

In particular, but not limited to:
1. Does concrete use UPS or save it? should I do large concrete-covered areas or it's a "no go" for performance? I like concrete but...

I don’t think it should make a difference except by expanding the range of pollution if you have it enabled. I would suggest playing without pollution.

2. Should I prefer build like X factories + Y beacons or lesser factories and more beacons?

You want to minimize the number of inserters/machines. The best way to do this is my maximizing the number of beacons per machine, but don’t add more beacons if it forces you to also build more machines/inserters by limiting the throughput of each machine.

3. Large "as-fast-as-possible" loading/unloading stations (like remote ore smelter) - bots or balanced belts? I have 2 smelter blocks now by 1500 bots each and I plan to double it.

Loading/unloading belts from trains is one of the worst things for belt ups because it uses so many inserters. I would do direct insertion or bots if you want to train ore, but if you want to use belts onsite smelting is probably best.

4. Mining outpost rail stations: bots or belts?

I would suggest mining directly into the train wagon with nothing in between again because it minimizes the number of entities.

5. If some part of my base is idle (like weaponry/kovarex/circuits) - should I power it off and power on for activity only or such approach does not save UPS?

Unpowered entities are bad for ups because they do not sleep but check for power each tick. Allowing machines to back up will cause them to sleep and is much better for ups.

6. Does putting balancers whether I can is heavy on UPS or no significant impact?

Belt balancers are bad for ups because they both merge transport lines groups (decrease capacity for multithreading) and because they add splitters. I believe a splitter is about the same as an inserter(?).

7. Should I remove visible on the map trees/rocks/cliffs? Pollution is not a concern, the more biters attack me the more I'm having fun with all great war techs )))

The trees/rocks/cliffs shouldn’t affect ups on their own. Of the military techs, lasers with high infinite research are best, but overall biters are bad.

8. I assume that of two options:

a) Smelter is getting ore and processes it with the speed that is just enough for current consumption level, so works more or less steady all the time
b) Smelter has a huge throughput and smelts everything as quick as it can, store in a large buffer, that provides output for like 15 mins of game, than turns on again, processes, shuts down.

Approach B is more UPS friendly? (Scale is like 8 blue belts per smelter, and there are 3 of them)

9. p.8 but for oil+solid fuel factory

Approach B would be more friendly, assuming that the number of entities is the same, because it would allow the machines to sleep; but approach C: “use fast machines from part B but let a few of them work all the time” is best.


As for my own tips:

For things that output often but don’t internally buffer (smelting, circuits etc.), it is good to “clock” inserters so that they only swing when they can take a full 12 items. This can be done by using a stack filter inserter and only setting the filter every ‘X’ ticks with combinators.

I do this by finding the speed of one machine as a fraction with the online calculator and then finding the ticks per 12 items.

As an example, let’s say we have an array of 8 beacon furnaces:

https://factoriolab.github.io/list?z=eJ ... XGABOlDBg_

Each produces 3+21/40 items per second

Code: Select all

  3+21/40 Items     second        1 swing
( - - - - - - -  *  - - - - -  *  - - - - - ) = 
  Second            60 ticks      12 items

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=% ... 5E%28-1%29

Gets you one swing every 9600/47 ticks. Your clock should have 47 in the constant combinator and modulo 9600 in the arithmetic combinator.

To output a pulse each cycle, use a decider with [signal<94] (2*47) and use the output to set filters on your inserters.


It is actually even more beneficial to let the machines buffer more than one swing and then activate the inserter long enough to make “X swings” at once, but that gets very complicated.


(I did this on mobile, so be impressed, I suppose )

[jodokus31]

- Belts consume UPS so the more underground I use the better UPS I get.

2. Should I prefer build like X factories + Y beacons or lesser factories and more beacons?
5. If some part of my base if idle (like weaponry/kovarex/circuits) - should I power it off and power on for activity only or such approach does not save UPS?

6. Does putting balancers whether I can is heavy on UPS or no significant impact?

Some selected questions:

- Belts or underground doesn't matter. Its important, that they are fully compressed.

2. Less factories with more beacons

5. Doesn't help afaik

6. Splitters and Balancers are generally bad for UPS. If you unload a train, you can also wait a certain time instead of get everything unloaded balanced.

[eradicator]

- Belts consume UPS so the more underground I use the better UPS I get.

Ancient and outdated. This was optimized years ago. Mix normal/underground as you want, it has no effect.
Uninterruppted fully compressed belts of the same color are optimal. I.e. don't mix yellow/red/blue/etc. Have slight overproduction to keep belts compressed. Don't interrupt segments with splitters. Use debug view (F4/F5) to see segment/compression info. Thus belt length is mostly irrelevant as long as it's uninterrupted.

6. Does putting balancers whether I can is heavy on UPS or no significant impact?

Splitters split belts into segments. Thus you get shorter uninterrupted belt segments. And splitters themselfs also need to do some calculations. Build as few splitters as possible.

1. Does concrete use UPS or save it?

Ground tiles have no active component and thus do not affect UPS.

2. Should I prefer build like X factories + Y beacons or lesser factories and more beacons?

Build as few factories as possible (assemblers, furnaces, chemplants, modded-whatever, etc). Max out beacons. Build solar for power if you need more power.

5. If some part of my base if idle (like weaponry/kovarex/circuits) - should I power it off and power on for activity only or such approach does not save UPS?

Never cut power to anything, it prevents machines from stopping themselfs ("sleeping"). Machines that stop themselfs either due to lack of input or due to full output consume (almost) no UPS. Do not use seperate electric networks - build one gigantic network that covers the whole map.

7. Should I remove visible on the map trees/rocks/cliffs?

No relevant effect on UPS. Might affect FPS while you're looking at them if you have a slow graphics card.

Pollution is not a concern, the more biters attack me the more I'm having fun with all great war techs )))

Biter movement costs CPU. The fewer they move the better. Serious mega-base-builders disable them. If you want to keep them make sure your pollution cloud never touches any nests.

3. Large "as-fast-as-possible" loading/unloading stations (like remote ore smelter) - bots or balanced belts? I have 2 smelter blocks now by 1500 bots each and I plan to double it.
4. Mining outpost rail stations: bots or belts?
[...]
a) Smelter is getting ore and processes it with the speed that is just enough for current consumption level, so works more or less steady all the time
b) Smelter has a huge throughput and smelts everything as quick as it can, store in a large buffer, that provides output for like 15 mins of game, than turns on again, processes, shuts down.

Reduce item move count as much as you can. An "item move count" is every time an item is moved from one thing to another (assembler/chest/train/belt/bot/etc). Thus:

• Don't build buffers unless absolutely nessecary.
• Try to maximize "direct insertion" i.e. furnace->assembler (1 movement) instead of furnace->belt->chest->train->chest->belt->assembler (6 movements).
• Fewer inserters/bots means fewer movements.
• Movement is cheaper for smaller inventories. Limit chest sizes to make them faster (the red cross in the GUI).

(This is a bit simplified. Not all movements have equal cost, but it's still the main thing you want to optimize.)

TL;DR:
Main things to optimize (in this order):

1. Reduce item move count.
2. Reduce active crafting machine count.
3. Reduce biter movement.

[KAA]

Thanks a lot for these great advices!
I’m really excited to do some adjustment based on these.

Just as a thoughts:

You probably shouldn't do what Nilaus does and build a gigantic bot network that covers everything. That's very bad.

I do it sometimes but as in Nilaus’s case it’s only 1 stage of endgame to transfer some items when it’s easier to use bots than to add another belts line through all the base that soon will not be needed.
Later main base collapses like in his video and transforms into small all-in-one production module just to support building, trains with parts, etc.

you don't need to prematurely optimize every detail without knowing what your PC can handle

Yep, maybe I was a little overconcerned. Laptop with i7-8750H CPU @ 2.20GHz up to 3.6 or something. Should be quite enough. Video is no concern, RAM also (32GB).
But still, many advices here provide much more benefits that just UPS so I’m glad I created this topic.

I would suggest playing without pollution.

I tried, it’s so boring for me ))) I like challenges, cannot limits myself in it.

don’t add more beacons if it forces you to also build more machines/inserters

Yep, this is my approach, thanks for confirmation it is correct.

I would suggest mining directly into the train wagon

I try to automate mining outposts building as much as I can as it is the most routine staff in the end-game.
That’s the reason I do not use mining to train, too hard to blueprint, especially if goal is to collect complete patch.
Also, I cannot find a source, but in discussion here on the to-train-mining topic, Factorio staff replied that mines on rails do not sleep. This check is not present in the code because it will lead to slowing all mines in terms of CPU, but as to-train-mining is actually almost never used, there are no benefits, just excess CPU load.

it is good to “clock” inserters

Oh, wow. Such use of circuitry is a little bit a rocket science for me))) I’m able to do it but I would really like not to. ) But thanks for the example, it really explains some stuff for me.

I also answered some of your points below to not repeat myself.

And yes, I’m highly impressed with your mobile skills))) Admit it, you probably not even looking on a phone keyboard and chatting with a phone in a pocket, right? ))

- Belts or underground doesn't matter. Its important, that they are fully compressed.

Thanks, I really do use compressed belts where possible. It also simplifies calculations and designs dramatically.

Belts consume UPS so the more underground I use the better UPS I get.
Ancient and outdated

Thanks! I was not aware of this change! Sounds just great! I don’t think this will add more ground belts to my designs, but still – useful to know while designing.

Build as few splitters as possible.

Wow this impacts me a lot! I just loved balancers until today ) I upgraded some designs for not using them or only to balance output – and these designs now look much more plain and straightforward, so easy understandable, and need to use rates instead of splitters leads to just huge simplifying! I like it!

Never cut power to anything

I got it, thanks, did not even suspect that it’s a “no go”. But did not used much)) only in imported blueprint (just one, uranium processing, I will update it though).

less factories and more beacons

I suspected. Now my designs are just twice smaller with more beacons)) and like 6 factories instead of 20 ))

Modded

Vanilla only, by a set of reasons.

Build solar for power

Ah! Cannot afford it. I’m from “solar is cheating” camp, like to deal with uranium. Now I have great build for 1.1GW reactor with 20 logistic bots that I just multiply in case of need. Now it’s five of them.

Biter movement costs CPU. The fewer they move the better. Serious mega-base-builders disable them.

I don’t think I’m king of “serious” builder) just playing for fun.
And playing without biters is sooo non-challenging for me )) I even tune up their parameters sometimes.
Now I have railroad scenario so they do not create new nests and this really makes me sad sometimes))

Anyway,

If you want to keep them make sure your pollution cloud never touches any nests.

Yes, I found this is the only suitable approach for mega-base. So almost no walls or turrets. Just nuclear Spidertron with like 14 personal laser defenses in player PA when I need some clean up.

Also, AFAIK, remote nests are not getting updated – they a kind of sleep and do not consume much CPU, so I think using long-ranged artillery might help here.

Limit chest sizes

Yep, most of them are limited so several slots. Did not know it affects CPU, but it improves factory balance, throughput and saves just huge number of resources.

Try to maximize "direct insertion" i.e. furnace->assembler

I try to automate mining outposts building as much as I can as it is the most routine staff in the end-game.
So, I did not find suitable ways to use onsite smelting in an efficient way, unfortunately.

Still no approach on miming. What would you advise:
- Mine to logistic chests and transfer to trains by 500-1500 bots,
- Or mine>belt>balancer>inserter>chest>inserter>train?
I cannot run away from buffer chests because train load becomes too long and more mining outposts needed.
I also cannot exclude balancers in mining outposts cause without them wagons are filled non equally and trains get stuck, and if I have no balancers – I need to adjust mining setup several times during depletion.
However, I don’t like bots covering large square also. So, this is still an open question.

[NotRexButCaesar]

I would suggest mining directly into the train wagon

I try to automate mining outposts building as much as I can as it is the most routine staff in the end-game.
That’s the reason I do not use mining to train, too hard to blueprint, especially if goal is to collect complete patch.

It isn't too hard if you accept the fact that you won't be able to cover the whole patch. Here is mine:

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

Copy blueprint

picture

screenshot_327h_40m_09s.png (8.11 MiB) Viewed 24100 times

Also, I cannot find a source, but in discussion here on the to-train-mining topic, Factorio staff replied that mines on rails do not sleep. This check is not present in the code because it will lead to slowing all mines in terms of CPU, but as to-train-mining is actually almost never used, there are no benefits, just excess CPU load.

I know what you are talking about. That used to be true, but there was a "secret fix"(not included in the changelog) sometime in 0.17 (I suppose because it became more popular); they now sleep like everywhere else.

[astroshak]

BTW, the reason that “no pollution” was suggested was because it does consume some of your UPS. So do biters, especially when your fixed Artillery has cleared everything in range, but suddenly gets a range increase (due to tech).

It was not about the challenge (or lack thereof) at all.

[eradicator]

BTW, the reason that “no pollution” was suggested was because it does consume some of your UPS.

Pollution by itself has no relevant UPS impact as far as i know. It just triggers map generation and biter movement - both of which are somewhat costly.

[Hannu]

BTW, the reason that “no pollution” was suggested was because it does consume some of your UPS. So do biters, especially when your fixed Artillery has cleared everything in range, but suddenly gets a range increase (due to tech).

It was not about the challenge (or lack thereof) at all.

Exactly. Megabase building is completely separate challenge than midgame fights with biters. When you have finished tech tree and begin to build big biters are not challenge anymore, even with deathworld settings. They are just resource sink for both game resources and playtime resource. Building of megabase is in any case long and tedious task. I like to have variety in logistics and keep biters, even often I clear them with commands during building to save tedious hours of fighting. But if I builded a megabase I would not like to have any extra tediousness which would decrease my main objectives.

[astroshak]

BTW, the reason that “no pollution” was suggested was because it does consume some of your UPS.

Pollution by itself has no relevant UPS impact as far as i know. It just triggers map generation and biter movement - both of which are somewhat costly.

Pollution calls for some math, per chunk : absorption and diffusion rates. While not difficult for the computer to do, it has to spend some time on it if pollution is enabled. The more chunks that have pollution in them, the more calculations have to be performed.

[eradicator]

Pollution by itself has no relevant UPS impact

Pollution calls for some math, per chunk

There, I added emphasis. To the best of my knowledge pollution is so trivial to calculate that it simply doesn't matter. Sure there's "some math" to do, but that goes for everything, even if you're just walking around.

[Laie]

While we're at it, what's the cost of circuit network shenaningans?

I'm on a default map; ore deposits are not large enough that mining directly into the train would be an option. Right now, I'm sending the ore flow through a balancer, then split-split-split it towards the inserters loading the wagons. I don't think I could do entirely without balancer, but I wonder if if smart inserters would be a more UPS-friendly way of distributing the load between chests?

[eradicator]

While we're at it, what's the cost of circuit network shenaningans?

Difficult to say. Not super expensive. There are some "weird" scenarios where clocked inserters are supposedly faster than non-clocked ones, but I don't remember the details. On the other end of the spectrum are computer contraptions that drive UPS down into single digits without any factory at all. I bet if you search long enough there's someone who benchmarked circuit based splitting. But the more specific your questions are, the higher the chance that it's faster to learn to benchmark it yourself :D.

Also nobody seems to have linked The Factorio Benchmark Website in this thread yet, so here goes ;).

[asheiduk]

Also nobody seems to have linked The Factorio Benchmark Website in this thread yet, so here goes .

I like that page but there are no numbers for contemporary versions of Factorio Quite some optimizations are not reflected by these benchmarks. So the actual value of that site of questionable.

[eradicator]

I like that page but there are no numbers for contemporary versions of Factorio :( Quite some optimizations are not reflected by these benchmarks. So the actual value of that site of questionable. :cry:

I don't see the link :D. Anyway, in the context of "learn how to benchmark" it should still be good. And most of the tests should at least still hint in the right direction even if the exact numbers are a bit off.

[KAA]

Thanks again for the advices and ideas!
By topics:

To train mining.
Thanks for the BP, NotRexButCaesar! It's the most easiest way of to-train-mining that I've ever seen. I tried it for a couple of days.
I liked it and I think I'll use it someday, but my mines now are just conveyors with 8x8 balancer to 8w train - patch size fits perfectly. And I'm not really happy with incomplete patch mining. But still, thanks!

Benchmarks.
Thanks for the link, I know now a lot more than yesterday )) I did not come to benchmarking on UPS by myself yet so, it's definitely useful for me.

Pollution.
I realize that it costs and I realize that while running a megabase that is UPS-challenging biters and pollution should be off the table.
As it is not my current approach, I still gather and implement all I can, and creating a BP Books, so that when I will run out of UPS on this map, I'll start new one without pollution and biters and will develop much quicker and with no need for total rebuilds like converting all mines and rail system to direct mining. So I agree here.

Overall, I have most answers now, however train+bots or train+belts question is still in place.
Let's make it not in the context of mining but let's take a remote smeltery as an example.

Scale:
32 blue belts of output plates

1) Into two trains stations 3-8-0.
16 belts per train station (2 belts per wagon, from both sides)

2021-05-01 20_49_43-Factorio 1.1.32.png (3.7 MiB) Viewed 23516 times

2) Into one train station by bots
A) This allows to send out trains from the station with minimum possible speed limited just by 12 stack inserters per wagon only.
B) It's an overkill in smeltery lines cause 32 blue belts is too much for 1 train 3-8-0, need to tune up.
c) Don't blame me for this design, it's just for example. Of course it will be smaller and belts extractors will be not so stupid ))) But this is what I use and if there is something more practical - please tell me.

2021-05-01 20_50_30-Factorio 1.1.32.png (1.97 MiB) Viewed 23516 times

3) or 24 blue belts smeltery
1 train station 3-8-0 having 3 blue belts per wagon (I'm able to full-speed load mechanically 3 blue belts into a train wagon)
Bots don't make sense here cause train loading speed will be 24 belts only always.
This is less speedy than bots in p.2 but smeltery is significantly cheaper while achieving maximum mech speed of train load which I can imagine now.

2021-05-01 20_48_37-Factorio 1.1.32.png (571.49 KiB) Viewed 23516 times

Any comments from UPS aspect?

[Laie]

Any comments from UPS aspect?

Not as such, but I'm wondering... it looks as if you entered into a sub-challenge of getting the most throughput out of a single train station, and I wonder if that is strictly necessary for a megabase?

[KAA]

Any comments from UPS aspect?

Not as such, but I'm wondering... it looks as if you entered into a sub-challenge of getting the most throughput out of a single train station, and I wonder if that is strictly necessary for a megabase?

Short answer - trains loading/unloading time becomes the bottleneck in some places of the base. There are several options to resolve this but optimizing railways seems to me as one of the most efficient ones.