Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

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Avezo
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Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Avezo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:21 pm

What?
Give more power to vanilla locomotives.
Why?
Because it's both not fun and looks ridiculous to have one-third of train length be locomotives just to have proper acceleration (even with nuclear fuel). Then there's a case that locomotives will consume twice as much fuel with upcoming burner efficiency changes... 1 Locomotive per 4 wagons or more would look much better.

That's all, thank you for your attention.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Serenity » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:52 pm

An upgraded locomotive that used some mid or late game materials would be nice. Maybe even low density structures now that you need to build them earlier

Fuel consumption isn't an issue. Trains consume little as it is

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Tekky » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:36 pm

I agree that bi-directional trains should get better acceleration, because they only have half of the acceleration as in reality. In reality, all locomotives contribute to the propulsion of the train, even the locomotives facing the other direction. This is not the case in Factorio. This issue has been discussed in the following thread:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=40644 propulsion power of bidirectional trains

However, I am against uni-directional trains getting better acceleration. It is realistic that trains need a longer time to accelerate than, for example, a car.

In my opinion, it should be more important to be able to prevent trains from slowing down, for example by using priority signalling on the main train routes. Also, being able to give priority to individual trains has been discussed in the following threads:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47541 track signals should send Train-ID to circuit network
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62838 Circuits: enhancing rail signal function
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62995 Train signaling, how frustrating....

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Darinth » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:09 pm

Avezo wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:21 pm
What?
Give more power to vanilla locomotives.
Why?
Because it's both not fun and looks ridiculous to have one-third of train length be locomotives just to have proper acceleration (even with nuclear fuel). Then there's a case that locomotives will consume twice as much fuel with upcoming burner efficiency changes... 1 Locomotive per 4 wagons or more would look much better.

That's all, thank you for your attention.
1: I don't think it looks ridiculous.
2: It's remarkably fun.
3: I thought all vehicles (including locomotives) were getting their fuel consumption rates halved to compensate for the fuel efficiency changes.

Sorry, I'm ultimately going to disagree. I don't think this is a problem. At all. There are other issues, like double-headed trains not being able to use both engines for movement. Trains engines can go in reverse remarkably well, but in general I think the pulling power of engines works perfectly fine.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Avezo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:32 pm

Tekky wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:36 pm
However, I am against uni-directional trains getting better acceleration. It is realistic that trains need a longer time to accelerate than, for example, a car.
The thing is, a lot of realism is already thrown out for the sake of gameplay. It makes sense, it's a game after all, not a real world simulator. And as such, I believe realism about trains shouldn't be considered to that degree as it's now - unrealistically powerful locomotives seem fine to me, for the sake of actual gameplay that is.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Sad_Brother » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:43 pm

Backward oriented Locomotive as a dead weight is both unrealistic and inconvenient.
While restriction to move locomotive backward only manual and only slow is both realistic and convenient.
Please let backward oriented Locomotives be active, but auto train movement possible only with forward oriented Locomotive present (ahead probably).

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by weaknespase » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:46 pm

I don't know what do you find ridiculous in train acceleration, considering the fact that trains are very very heavy. To move with specific, non-zero speed, any object must have some non-zero amount of kinetic energy (E=m*V^2/2).

For a real world train with two 4 MWt locomotives, dragging 40 loaded cargo wagons with, for example, coal, approximate weight of entire train will be in order of 2*120 + 40*(64+20) = 3600 metric tonnes. If its cruise speed is 72 km/h (20 m/s), amount of energy required to accelerate it from full stop is 720 MJ, which translates to 90 seconds spent accelerating, assuming locomotives have 100% efficiency. For comparison, for single locomotive it would take 6 seconds and for train with 3 cars and 1 locomotive it would take 18.6 seconds to reach cruise speed.

Trains in Factorio already buffed considerably relative to their real world cousins, do you want them even more overpowered? They already accelerate several times faster, their top speed 3(4) times higher and they burn 7-10 times less energy than high-powered electric locomotive. Moving real-world train over short (10-20 km) distance takes about half an hour, with in-game changes that brings it down to 1-3 minutes, which, i think, is pretty okay for a long distance transport.

Maybe you're trying to use trains where they don't have much power over belts?

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by nosports » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:08 pm

Would it be not easier to produce (hence mod) a fuel with change the acceleration and topspeed more than nuclear fuel in Factorio ?

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by bobucles » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:15 pm

proper acceleration
People make locomotives a third of their train length because they want race cars, not trains. If you want realistic train acceleration use a single locomotive.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by bobingabout » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:48 am

I must agree with the OP on these two points.

1. Backwards facing locomotives should contribute their power to moving the train.
2. having 1/3 of the train made up of locomotives is kind of dumb. IRL a standard locomotive would typically pull a dozen wagons or more.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Darinth » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:09 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:48 am
I must agree with the OP on these two points.

1. Backwards facing locomotives should contribute their power to moving the train.
2. having 1/3 of the train made up of locomotives is kind of dumb. IRL a standard locomotive would typically pull a dozen wagons or more.
1: I completely agree with.
2: Cargo trains IRL are not bullet trains, they clip along at a relatively leisurely and don't have acceleration worth a damn. People want factorio trains to accelerate like race cars. If you want to pull trains 'realistically' load them down in a 1-10 configuration. You'll have no acceleration and fairly leisurely top speed, just like a real train. They already hold a huge amount of cargo being transported from location to location. I can't honestly say that I think we have a need to put more cargo wagons on trains and still keep them at their current pace, especially if backwards facing locomotives do get to the point of contributing power to the train.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by bobingabout » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:45 am

I think part of the other issue is that the speed of an IRL train depends on it's load. they'd go a lot faster when empty than when full. It's a bit of a shame this feature isn't in the game, but then from the technical perspective, I'm not sure I want to ask for this feature.

The other two I brought up though, yes. if reverse locomotives contributed their power, that would probably go a long way to helping the issue.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:09 am

bobingabout wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:48 am
1. Backwards facing locomotives should contribute their power to moving the train.
+1

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by JimBarracus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:14 pm

locomotives should be more a pita then they are now.

Solid fuel combustion engines?

we need trains running on light oil (diesel)
electric trains (cable, accu-powered, nuclear and fusion generator)
proper steam locos with a water tank

every train has its pros and cons
acceleration and top speed should be different

anyway: tHeRe iS a mOD fOR tHaT!

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by Tekky » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:42 pm

JimBarracus wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:14 pm
Solid fuel combustion engines?

we need trains running on light oil (diesel)
electric trains (cable, accu-powered, nuclear and fusion generator)
proper steam locos with a water tank
In reality, the first trains were powered by steam engines, which actually did use a solid fuel for combustion. They mainly used coal.

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Re: Stronger Vanilla Locomotives

Post by JimBarracus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:09 am

Tekky wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:42 pm
In reality, the first trains were powered by steam engines, which actually did use a solid fuel for combustion. They mainly used coal.
should have been more precise
internal combustion engine or piston engine

currently we have a locomotive that car run on electric poles
and does not require water to produce steam

of course its not possible to run a piston engine on solid fuel like coal or wood crates
only a classic steam engine might be capable of doing that but we dont have that.

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