Logic gates

[PaszaVonPomiot]

I know that similar suggestions were made but I think they lack some explanation.

TL;DR

Please add all common logic gates (NOT, AND, OR, NAND, XOR, NOR) in form of 1x1 box prefarably using the same sprite as constant combinator to significantly improve players' experience with circuit networks.

What ?

The idea is to have basic logic gates available in vanilla. This would mean adding to already existing combinators one called "Logic Combinator" or "Logic Gate". After placing it you could select operation it should perform like NOT or XOR and select input and output signals. It would output only one 0/1 signal of specified type. Visually the gate should be 1x1 and can have the same sprite as Constant Combinator.


The example shows fixed AND gate with GUI element from Useful Combinators mod.

Why ?

It is no secret that circuit networks give players endless possibilities to control and automate their factorioes. At the same time almost everyone agrees that circuit networks are non-intuitive and kind of difficult to grasp. In my opinion they should be as intuitive and user friendly as possible from very beginning as this would encourage players to use them more often and have more satisfying gameplay. I know that this functionality is in modding domain at the moment but for given reasons I think that it's essential in vanilla. Also I'm confident that you dev's will provide much better quality than is currently offered by Useful Combinators mod (where graphics is poor and position of laid gates is unnaturaly shifted). With regards to current AND, OR, XOR gates inside Arithmetic Combinator it just feels wrong that you have to place powered 2x1 combinator with 4 sockets to perform simple logic operation. Not mentioning that you have to use Decider Combinator to do NOT operation. All of this discourages players from using one of the most valuable Factorio features - circuit networks.

Now why it is good idea to have logic gates as proposed:

• it's intuitive - you don't have to think whether to use decider or arithmetic combinator for logic operation
• small device - let's be honest - in digital networks logic gates are one of the smallest elements and as such should be represented in Factorio with the smallest 1x1 square device
• no power required - it makes sense to have Arithmetic Combinators draw power (as they have to calculate things), but making single OR operation seems fine without 230V
• 1 input and 1 output - again, this should be simple for players, no need for wondering which input or output should be used; this also means less user errors

It's worth mentioning that effort of implementing this should be relatively low as you can reuse existing sprites and see working proof of concept.

Implementing logic gates would significantly improve user experience with circuit networks and would definitely encourage players to use them more often and for more complex projects.

[Caine]

With regards to current AND, OR, XOR gates inside Arithmetic Combinator it just feels wrong that you have to place powered 2x1 combinator with 4 sockets to perform simple logic operation.

Why? The second output is perhaps unconventional, but they carry the same signal anyway. I think it makes sense that they are powered, real-life gates are as well.

Not mentioning that you have to use Decider Combinator to do NOT operation.

Not really. If you are transfering a boolean signal [0,1], which you should when doing logic, then: X xor 1 == not X.

it's intuitive - you don't have to think whether to use decider or arithmetic combinator for logic operation

Use arithmetic combinator, see above.

small device - let's be honest - in digital networks logic gates are one of the smallest elements and as such should be represented in Factorio with the smallest 1x1 square device

Yes true, but this is far from the biggest problem when dealing with circuit networks.

no power required - it makes sense to have Arithmetic Combinators draw power (as they have to calculate things), but making single OR operation seems fine without 230V

This makes no sense whatsoever. If an or gate does not use power, then neither does arithmetic as it is built by logic gates. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder_(electronics).

1 input and 1 output - again, this should be simple for players, no need for wondering which input or output should be used; this also means less user errors

Actually a single input on a binary logic gate is quite confusing. The fact that input signals automatically add up means that you cannot combine a signal logically with itself (without additional combinators).

Please add all common logic gates (NOT, AND, OR, NAND, XOR, NOR) in form of 1x1 box prefarably using the same sprite as constant combinator to significantly improve players' experience with circuit networks.

While we do not need them (with AND, OR and XOR we can build all others, in fact a NAND or NOR gate alone is already sufficient), the NAND and NOR gates would be useful to add.

Personally I struggle much more to keep stuff organized. It is hard to see and maintain the wiring. We also lack the ability to clearly indicate what a group of gates does (e.g. by colour coding, etc...) The signal letters help a bit, but some better form of abstraction would be nice.

[PaszaVonPomiot]

With regards to current AND, OR, XOR gates inside Arithmetic Combinator it just feels wrong that you have to place powered 2x1 combinator with 4 sockets to perform simple logic operation.

Why? The second output is perhaps unconventional, but they carry the same signal anyway. I think it makes sense that they are powered, real-life gates are as well.

Mainly because of size, unnecessary sockets and lack of simplicity.

Not mentioning that you have to use Decider Combinator to do NOT operation.

Not really. If you are transfering a boolean signal [0,1], which you should when doing logic, then: X xor 1 == not X.

That's exactly my point - player has to spend time wondering which combinator to use instead of just placing simple "Logic Combinator".

it's intuitive - you don't have to think whether to use decider or arithmetic combinator for logic operation

Use arithmetic combinator, see above.

Which obviously is not intuitive.

small device - let's be honest - in digital networks logic gates are one of the smallest elements and as such should be represented in Factorio with the smallest 1x1 square device

Yes true, but this is far from the biggest problem when dealing with circuit networks.

I agree that other improvements can be made but as a new Factorio player this one is the first that I stumbled upon and it can be relatively easy solved.

no power required - it makes sense to have Arithmetic Combinators draw power (as they have to calculate things), but making single OR operation seems fine without 230V

This makes no sense whatsoever. If an or gate does not use power, then neither does arithmetic as it is built by logic gates. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder_(electronics).

Well that's why I wrote 230V. Obviously all kind of electronics require some power supply but look at vanilla Constant Combinator - it's not powered. I understand that it's simple device and doesn't need power form electric network but is somehow internally powered with digital electronics voltage levels. The same concept I would use for "Logic Gates"

1 input and 1 output - again, this should be simple for players, no need for wondering which input or output should be used; this also means less user errors

Actually a single input on a binary logic gate is quite confusing. The fact that input signals automatically add up means that you cannot combine a signal logically with itself (without additional combinators).

I don't see a problem. You connect two cables each with some signals and you select which should be taken as an input for logic operation. The mod for that already exists, works and is quite popular.

Please add all common logic gates (NOT, AND, OR, NAND, XOR, NOR) in form of 1x1 box prefarably using the same sprite as constant combinator to significantly improve players' experience with circuit networks.

While we do not need them (with AND, OR and XOR we can build all others, in fact a NAND or NOR gate alone is already sufficient), the NAND and NOR gates would be useful to add.

Personally I struggle much more to keep stuff organized. It is hard to see and maintain the wiring. We also lack the ability to clearly indicate what a group of gates does (e.g. by colour coding, etc...) The signal letters help a bit, but some better form of abstraction would be nice.

I can definitely agree with on missing NAND and NOR gates and also that representation layer could be improved.

[Rakshasa]

I'd say it's part of the gameplay having to figure out how to make things happen using the current building blocks.

[PaszaVonPomiot]

I'd say it's part of the gameplay having to figure out how to make things happen using the current building blocks.

You could also use logic gates without combinators you just have to figure them out... But the point is to have basic building blocks like logic gates simple so that you can spend more time building more complex projects.

[Caine]

That's exactly my point - player has to spend time wondering which combinator to use instead of just placing simple "Logic Combinator".
...
Which obviously is not intuitive.

Using the same reasoning, adding a logic combinator will be confusing since the player has to decide if he needs to use an arithmetic combinator, a logic combinator or a decider combinator. In fact, since most logical operators have an arithmetic counterpart (which functions the same for 1-bit values), the player is now confronted with "should I use the arithmetic XOR or the logical XOR". Thus the problem became worse. If anything, this is an argument to merge the decider combinator and the arithmetic combinator into a single combinator.

I agree that other improvements can be made but as a new Factorio player this one is the first that I stumbled upon and it can be relatively easy solved.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against decreasing the size of the combinators, but I worry that if not done well that the wiring mess will become even harder to see. Proper routing of wires goes a long way in understanding the function of circuitry and factorio gives us poor control over it (or maybe I just suck at doing it in factorio).

Well that's why I wrote 230V. Obviously all kind of electronics require some power supply but look at vanilla Constant Combinator - it's not powered.

It always struck me as a bit odd that the constant combinator doesn't need power. As for the 230V, you don't usually connect your logic gates over power poles either

Sorry for being critical about it, but it doesn't sound like much gain over the current status quo. It is all there. Your proposal saves a 1x1 area and a power pole, big deal. Combinator usage is a trained skill anyway. It is not intuitive unless you have a background in logic and/or circuitry.

Logic Gate.png (241.06 KiB) Viewed 8417 times

[Engimage]

You can implement all your ideas using existing items in Factorio.
Space and size is not an issue in Factorio. This is game's intention to force people build complex stuff using simple tools.
And devs will never add anything to the game which can already be done using existing tools.