Make fluid wagons lighter

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argbla
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Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by argbla » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:34 pm

With the recent change making fluid wagons only able to contain one liquid each, I'm having a tough time justifying their use. Using a cargo wagon and barrels gives you 33% more fluid, and using filters you can carry multiple types of fluid per cargo wagon. The big downside to cargo wagons being barrel management. Barrel management with trains isn't a good time, and requires additional cargo space if using filters for filled barrels. But the idea of adding three weight (for a second fluid) to each of my already hefty trains isn't great either. Two weight would be alright, one would make them the only reasonable way to transport fluids by train, which I think is ok because barrel management with trains isn't a good time.

Bringing back three tanks per wagon would also work :) but the simplification is understandable. I just think they could use a buff after the nerf.

BenSeidel
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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by BenSeidel » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:50 pm

Yeah, this has been discussed multiple times.
Each time the additional resources required to construct the barrels is the justification for the additional storage/transport capacity <insert link to previous discussion here> (personally I disagree though, but that is more a fundamental issue with the entire fluid mechanics).
argbla wrote:Alternatively, bringing back three tanks per wagon would also work :) but the simplification is understandable. I just think they could use a buff after the nerf.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. I can place 3 different fluids into a wagon (once they are separated that is). Please clarify with a save or screen-shots.
(I admit that I am 2 versions below current, so if it's changed since then, please disregard the previous comment)

yep... just upgraded... so...
+1 (this is a MAJOR bummer)

argbla
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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by argbla » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:48 pm

To add to this after reading the friday facts, fluid wagons do carry too much for mixed loads. 75k crude would have to be paired with ~30 cargo wagons full of iron and copper in order to be turned into most anything.

Because I really don't want to be incentivised to deal with barrels and trains, maybe it would also be good to cut the stack size of barrels to 5 instead of 10 if the capacity of fluid wagons is going to be decreased. Also changing fluid wagon weight to 2 instead of 3 would seem appropriate.

All just suggestions, though!

Zavian
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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by Zavian » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:55 pm

BenSeidel wrote:Yeah, this has been discussed multiple times.
Each time the additional resources required to construct the barrels is the justification for the additional storage/transport capacity <insert link to previous discussion here>
I've also heard people saying the devs choose to make barrels transport more per wagon, because they are more challenging to setup in a robust manner, where as the fluid wagon is dead simple.

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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by BenSeidel » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:38 am

I've always found that setting up fluid wagons to be more annoying than a barreled setup as the pumps need 3 tiles (2 for the pump and 1 for the connection) so you can't put the rail directly next to each other. Couple that with the limited throughput of a pipe (it's very limiting) it makes a bot-based (or now belt based) barreling system a better option for large setups.

If the devs think that the current fluid wagons hold too much and that they don't move through the network enough, you should see how often a barreled train moves. Another issue with making the fluid wagons hold 1/3 of their current capacity is that they move slower than any of your other trains. This means that if you run 1-3-1 itemised trains you need to run 1-1-1 fluid wagon trains so that they don't act as a massive network clog. This means that after the change your really looking at 1/9th the fluid capacity for the entire train.

While fluid wagons are fun, I think that they are going to be nerfed to the point where it's just not justifiable to use them. Especially on any large train base. :cry:

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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by Zavian » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:02 am

BenSeidel wrote:I've always found that setting up fluid wagons to be more annoying than a barreled setup as the pumps need 3 tiles (2 for the pump and 1 for the connection) so you can't put the rail directly next to each other. Couple that with the limited throughput of a pipe (it's very limiting) it makes a bot-based (or now belt based) barreling system a better option for large setups.

If the devs think that the current fluid wagons hold too much and that they don't move through the network enough, you should see how often a barreled train moves. Another issue with making the fluid wagons hold 1/3 of their current capacity is that they move slower than any of your other trains. This means that if you run 1-3-1 itemised trains you need to run 1-1-1 fluid wagon trains so that they don't act as a massive network clog. This means that after the change your really looking at 1/9th the fluid capacity for the entire train.

While fluid wagons are fun, I think that they are going to be nerfed to the point where it's just not justifiable to use them. Especially on any large train base. :cry:
I generally connect a pump directly to a tank. That way I'm not limited by the speed of a pipe. Pumps have a throughput of 12000/sec so 3 pumps can drain a wagon in less than 2.5sec. (Yeah this does take more space, but probably less space than you need to grab 8 belts from a 2-4-2 train. Regarding train speed I think a 3-2-3 fluid train is the same speed (and length) as a 2-4-2 cargo train. (2-6-2 cargo and 2-2-2 fluid should also be the same speed).
Klonan wrote:
agmike wrote:I don't understand. Fluid wagon's mass is 2 times higher than normal wagon, and it already transports less fluid than wagon with barrells. Why reduce it's capactiy?
()

It is 3x heavier than the cargo wagon, so we would definitely reduce the weight to compensate for reduced capacity
So I guessing that if they cut the capacity to 25000, they would reduce the weight to the same as a cargo wagon.

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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by Carl » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:15 am

Honestly cutting the fluid wagon size down does not strike me a sa good thing.

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Re: Make fluid wagons lighter

Post by thriem » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:27 pm

argbla wrote:With the recent change making fluid wagons only able to contain one liquid each, I'm having a tough time justifying their use. Using a cargo wagon and barrels gives you 33% more fluid, and using filters you can carry multiple types of fluid per cargo wagon. The big downside to cargo wagons being barrel management. Barrel management with trains isn't a good time, and requires additional cargo space if using filters for filled barrels. But the idea of adding three weight (for a second fluid) to each of my already hefty trains isn't great either. Two weight would be alright, one would make them the only reasonable way to transport fluids by train, which I think is ok because barrel management with trains isn't a good time.

Bringing back three tanks per wagon would also work :) but the simplification is understandable. I just think they could use a buff after the nerf.
I totally agree, always when the oil is far apart, I build some solar + accumulators to power a pumpjack, oill refinery with 3 tanks + pumps for its products.
But now i'd need at last 3 tank-wagons, which makes the trainstation quite large for that little economy and if this place is in a danger zone (with increased size more likely) it becomes more difficult to defend. Also parts become spread apart unnecessarily... the easiest way is to safe the research of tank-wagons at all and do a simple barrel exchange - almost upsides only.
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