Endgame Content Concept Discussion

[CreeperDaReeper]

-----I'm not so much going for an idea for content, as trying to discuss if the idea itself would seem feasible physics/science-fiction wise within Factorio itself.
I worked backwards to get each step.

-----The in initial thought was to be able to build super-tough structures out of diamond. Yeah I know, how flipping original of me, but since Factorio recipes are based on real world manufacturing techniques, (at least I think they are), I figured there might be an industrially feasible way to go about this based on the fact that we do currently industrially manufacture diamonds.

-----So, what do we need to be able to 'machine' diamond as a building material, or at the very least liquify it and pour it into a mold? Insane amounts of heat and pressure. Which is also what we need to make diamond if none can be found.

Diamond = Mined OR Coal + Heat & Pressure.

-----Now we need a way to produce insane amounts of heat & pressure AND contain said heat/pressure. Current diamond manufacturing methods produce small diamonds, suitable for coatings, and cutting edges. Too small to be viable as a mass produced building material. So how would we, (individual person's within a futuristic, space-age, industrial building game, AKA Factorio), go about this? Forge a star. And here's where current concrete physics are left a short distance away.

Constant Heat & Pressure = Star.

-----We know that our star, AKA the sun, is made of roughly 71% Hydrogen, 27% Helium, and trace amounts of other elements. We also know that our Sun, other stars as well, are in a state of constant Nuclear Fusion. The sun quite literally burns Hydrogen. Which brings us back to our original problem of heat & pressure.

Star = Burning Hydrogen.

-----To make a star we need a way to start Nuclear Fusion of Hydrogen and contain the subsequent release of energy. Well we can get an easy enough supply of Hydrogen by running an electric current through water in a chemical plant, (easy enough recipe), but how are we going to create a temperature high enough to ignite it? Build a Particle Accelerator.

Burning Hydrogen = Hydrogen Supply + Hyper-Velocity Kinetic Impact.

-----And now we're back on solid ground in relation to 'mechanics'. Particle acceleration has been around as early as the 1950s, possibly earlier. Seeing as how this is for an End-Game process, by then a player should have access to a surplus of resources with which to build a particle accelerator.

Hyper-Velocity Kinetic Impact = Particle Accelerator / Hadron Collider.

-----Now that we have a way to ignite a supply of Hydrogen, we need a way to contain the fledgling star lest we blow ourselves and possibly the planet we're on to bits. How do we do this? Gravity Chamber. And here's where we leave current science behind completely and have fun with science fiction.

Containment = Gravity Manipulation + Extreme Heat Resistance.

-----My thoughts on this are that it would be made out of some dense material like Lead or something, contains an unholy amount of magnets (Particle Accelerator needs them too), has Liquid Nitrogen Cooling, and is coated in a heat resistance substance, (since we're going through all this trouble to make & machine diamonds, we can't use those just yet).

Extreme Heat Resistance = Liquid Nitrogen Cooling + Graphene Coating.

-----First lets get our hands on some Nitrogen. Another simply recipe done within a Chemical plant. Hook up one or more air compressors, (converted water pumps), to a Chemical Plant, and add Electricity. Side effect of producing more Oxygen.
-----Now you're probably wondering what the heck Graphene is, even if you aren't, its a single atom thick sheet of Carbon Atoms, just under diamond in heat resistance.

Liquid Nitrogen = Liquified Air.

-----How does one go about making Graphene? Another Chemical Plant Recipe. We'll need water, detergent, and graphite. Water is easy. Graphite can be obtained by refining Coal. As for Detergent, we have yet another chemical plant recipe.

Detergent = 25 Hydrogen + 12 Carbon + 4 Oxygen + 1 Sulfur AKA 6 Petroleum(Propane) + 1 Sulfuric Acid.

-----Finally we can stop with the chemical production chain. However the above recipe leaves 1 Oxygen Molecule running free so double the recipe.

Detergent

Chemical Plant
-Input
--12 Petroleum
--2 Sulfuric Acid
-Output
--2 Detergent
--1 Oxygen

Graphite

Assembler
-Input
--2 Coal
-Output
--1 Graphite

Graphene

Chemical Plant
-Input
--10 Water
--2 Detergent
--2 Graphite
-Output
--2 Graphene

Liquid Nitrogen

Chemical Plant
-Input
--2 Liquid Air
-Output
--2 Liquid Nitrogen
--2 Oxygen

Electromagnet

Assembler
-Input
--1 Iron Plate
--1 Copper Wire
-Output
--1 Electromagnet

-----Now lets say you manage to get this far. You've assembled one Particle Accelerator(PA) and one Gravity Chamber(GC). The PA would require a large area to be placed down or constructed within, a huge amount of electricity to run, and two lead plates to use as material to be accelerated.
----The GC could only be placed down after and directly adjacent to the PA. It would also require a huge amount of Hydrogen to keep the star burning. And a huge amount of electricity to keep the star contained.
----The PA would only fire so long as the GC has a supply of coal to turn into diamonds or a supply of diamonds to turn into diamond parts. Should the GC not have enough coal or diamonds to complete a recipe, it would cease to supply the star with Hydrogen. After which the star would extinguish.
-----The PA would have a significant spin up time and cool down time, so starting and stopping the diamond forging/machining processes quickly would not be possible.
-----As a result of Hydrogen Fusion, the GC would also output Helium as a byproduct.
-----A Particle Accelerator in conjunction with a Gravity Chamber could be called a Solar Foundry.

-----Now with this facility running, diamond could be forged into parts just like iron & steel to construct some insanely durable products. As for all the intermediate products required to get to this point, Detergent could also be used in Chemical Plants to treat polluted water, Graphene could be used to guard things against heat higher than Ceramic could withstand but also be much easier to machine than Diamond, and Liquid Nitrogen could be used to cool other things as well as make some sort of cold based weaponry (Cryo-Capsule?).



TL:DR - Build a Particle Accelerator and a Gravity Chamber, fuel it with Hydrogen & Diamonds, and make some really tough stuff.

P.S. I spent a couple of hours googling as much as I could about the ideas herein to see just how much of this would actually be possible. Right now I'm only asking if you think this would be possible, lore wise / technology wise within Factorio. Thank you.

[ssilk]

TL:DR - Build a Particle Accelerator and a Gravity Chamber, fuel it with Hydrogen & Diamonds, and make some really tough stuff.

Hm. To make it short: I like the idea of making diamonds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond

But the technology to make diamonds differ strong from that to make fusion.

The gravity chamber is another thing, which is from science very questionable. We have electro-magnetic power and can manipulate that, but the gravity is so very different from all other forces we know in nature. This is, because gravity belongs to space and time (the spacetime) and manipulating this, means, that you manipulate with the space, where this manipulator exists. The manipulator needs to exists in a layer below that spacetime and well, I doubt, that this is possible, because the structures in that "new space" are to fine to create such a tool from the space above. But I admit, that this begins now to be very hypothetical.

But well, besides that, your idea is more or less logical explainable.

What are the super-tough-structures? What use? What items?

[Ohlmann]

Note that we certainly talk about "fantasy" diamond more than the earth stuff, given that it's a pretty shitty material for most things, and in no way comparable to steel (if a diamond tank were more resilient than a steel tank, we would already build diamond armor for them ...). Building a star to create big diamond also seem a major case of overkill :p But overkill isn't necesarilly bad (heck, it could produce metallic hydrogen too while we're at it).

In others words, the idea is suitably insane for end game, maybe a bit too insane, but funny. At that point maybe we should also build a dyson sphere around the star of the planet of Factorio :p

[Rahjital]

I don't think I can agree with this idea. The story of the game is that you land on an alien planet to industrialize it, why would you need particle colliders, artificial stars or even gravity chambers for that? It would make more sense to build the needed architecture for landing of and colonisation by a massive amounts of people, like a fully featured star port to land all the people, large warehouses full of materials to fuel the constructions of cities, hydroponics operations to feed them, etc. The point is, the player should feel like they are a pioneer on a hostile planet, not like a mad scientist trying to destroy the universe.

Ohlmann: Quite on the contrary, synthetic diamond is a rather awesome material thanks to its great hardness and conductivity, and is fairly suitable for anything that doesn't concern great tensile stress or high temperatures in presence of oxygen (since diamonds burn ). In Factorio, diamonds could perhaps be used for improved drills, since there's no upgrade to them so far, or perhaps laser turrets if the devs decide to change turret balance.

[CreeperDaReeper]

What are the super-tough-structures? What use? What items?

In others words, the idea is suitably insane for end game, maybe a bit too insane, but funny. At that point maybe we should also build a dyson sphere around the star of the planet of Factorio :p

The point is, the player should feel like they are a pioneer on a hostile planet, not like a mad scientist trying to destroy the universe.
RE: Ohlmann: Quite on the contrary, synthetic diamond is a rather awesome material thanks to its great hardness and conductivity, and is fairly suitable for anything that doesn't concern great tensile stress or high temperatures in presence of oxygen (since diamonds burn ). In Factorio, diamonds could perhaps be used for improved drills, since there's no upgrade to them so far, or perhaps laser turrets if the devs decide to change turret balance.

(Points aren't in order of the quotes they answer.)

1. So it can be agreed that industrial manufacturing of diamonds in Factorio is feasible. Great!

2. Doing so by using a particle accelerator to ignite a stream of Hydrogen? Not so much.

3. While yes, the Dev's have stated that the player's goal currently is colonization based, I meant this as a possible industrial endgame. I played one of the Civilization games once, and it had different end game conditions. The science endgame had you building a colony ship and going to a new planet. The war endgame had you ruling/owning the entire 'world'. Etc, etc.

4. Diamond is resistant to a lot of things, compression and heat best amongst them. Its also acid resistance, I think, though I'm not sure how it would hold up against sonic vibrations or sub-zero temperatures.

5. Diamonds could be used, (if we can come up with a way to make large enough ones and in various shapes), drills, walls, furnace coatings, angled armor plates (nice square ones would be easily cleaved in two), better lenses for laser weaponry, and possibly a host of other things too.

This was mostly just a thought I had where what would we spend our time doing once we have a fully functional T4 base? Aside from clearing out Biters and tapping every ore field and oil well. Domination, Peace, Industrialization, Colonization, and/or Research, those are five different possible endgames that I can think of just off the top of my head.

Video about the Weight, Cost, and Durability of a set of Minecraft Diamond Armor.

[Ohlmann]

Ohlmann: Quite on the contrary, synthetic diamond is a rather awesome material thanks to its great hardness and conductivity, and is fairly suitable for anything that doesn't concern great tensile stress or high temperatures in presence of oxygen.

Well, it's mainly not *comparable* to steel. Maybe I should have put more emphasis on the fact it's not for the same use at all.

[Rahjital]

CreeperDaReeper: Constructing a superweapon to annihilate the biters would be a good goal as well, although some thought would have to go into what kind of weapon it would be, since all superweapons currently known to man also devastate the environment. There's the option of going for some sci-fi wonder again, but that kind of technology doesn't fit the industrial feeling of Factorio at all.

Ohlmann: Indeed, both have their own uses. A slab of diamond won't last long to protect you, but steel won't do you much good in heatsinks or in boring machine tips.

[CreeperDaReeper]

CreeperDaReeper: Constructing a superweapon to annihilate the biters would be a good goal as well, although some thought would have to go into what kind of weapon it would be, since all superweapons currently known to man also devastate the environment.

Biter only super virus. Poison the suckers to death.

[ssilk]

I want to mention, that Diamond is a quite bad usage for armor, technically spoken.

Yes, it is hard, but have you ever tried to hold a plate as shield against a football? The plate will brake, the football survives. So with diamond!

And Diamond burns quite well. Technically it is nothing else than another form of care coal. And will burn, when it gets too hot.

[CreeperDaReeper]

I want to mention, that Diamond is a quite bad usage for armor, technically spoken.
Yes, it is hard, but have you ever tried to hold a plate as shield against a football? The plate will brake, the football survives. So with diamond!
And Diamond burns quite well. Technically it is nothing else than another form of care coal. And will burn, when it gets too hot.

Diamond: Fusibility ----- Burns above 700 °C in air.

Oxy-Hydrogen Torch: -- autoignition occurs at about 570 °C (1065 °F) -- maximum temperature of about 2,800 °C (5,070 °F) --

Ceramic: -- withstand very high temperatures, -- from 1,000 °C to 1,600 °C (1,800 °F to 3,000 °F) --


My thought now then is that Diamond would be good for laser based weaponry, laser based energy transfer grids, and teleportation through harmonic vibrations. Harmonic Diamond Warp Inserter anyone? Laser based energy transfer.

[ssilk]

No mining?

[CreeperDaReeper]

No mining?

https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 326#p32397
5. Diamonds could be used, (if we can come up with a way to make large enough ones and in various shapes), >>>>>drills,<<<<< walls, furnace coatings, angled armor plates (nice square ones would be easily cleaved in two), better lenses for laser weaponry, and possibly a host of other things too.

[Calico]

uhm, where do i start... I guess with that the Sun (and all other Stars for that matter) isn't in a state of fission, it's fusion.

I agree that we could use some supertech for endgame stuff, but the idea is kinda... flimsy? It's somewhat far off from the real world. Creating a small Sun is actually something that is quite doable, it has been done before, albeit we haven't reached the point of making it work for more then a few seconds, i believe. Currently there is a Fusion Reactor in the works, in France, called the ITER. We also don't need to defy Gravitiy to get it work, nor a collider. We do need some big ressources to make it work, like the producing the necessary Deuterium (or Helium-3, or Tritium), the Torus chamber and loads of other stuff.

[CreeperDaReeper]

uhm, where do i start... I guess with that the Sun (and all other Stars for that matter) isn't in a state of fission, it's fusion.

I agree that we could use some supertech for endgame stuff, but the idea is kinda... flimsy? It's somewhat far off from the real world. Creating a small Sun is actually something that is quite doable, it has been done before, albeit we haven't reached the point of making it work for more then a few seconds, i believe. Currently there is a Fusion Reactor in the works, in France, called the ITER. We also don't need to defy Gravitiy to get it work, nor a collider. We do need some big ressources to make it work, like the producing the necessary Deuterium (or Helium-3, or Tritium), the Torus chamber and loads of other stuff.

I went through all the trouble of researching this crap and I still managed to screw it up. Lolz. Typos fixed, all three of them. (At least I was consistent about it.)

Didn't know we could do that yet though.

[Calico]

I'm glad that i can share that bit of knowledge.

I'm still unsure about the entire Diamond Idea... but while reading your proposal i thought a bit about the fusion Reactor. How about creating a fusion reactor and a sci-fi Energy shield (we cant make those, yet).... it's kinda like the Missile Defense we already have (it removes the thread of beeing overrun by biters). It's also a very clean and ressource efficient energy source for use of the colony later. Would require a tremendous amount of ressources for a large scale application, but after building it the colony would be safe and would never have to worry about energy, making further gameplay kinda pointless (which is ok for the endgame goal).

[CreeperDaReeper]

I'm glad that i can share that bit of knowledge.

I'm still unsure about the entire Diamond Idea... but while reading your proposal i thought a bit about the fusion Reactor. How about creating a fusion reactor and a sci-fi Energy shield (we cant make those, yet).... it's kinda like the Missile Defense we already have (it removes the thread of beeing overrun by biters). It's also a very clean and ressource efficient energy source for use of the colony later. Would require a tremendous amount of ressources for a large scale application, but after building it the colony would be safe and would never have to worry about energy, making further gameplay kinda pointless (which is ok for the endgame goal).

Who says it would have to have infinite range? And if the colony grows in size, you start to lose your factory area and HAVE to move. hehehe

[Calico]

Never said "infinite".

It should be big enough to build a City in it... we don't know how many colonists are onboard the ships, but a stable population would have to be in the several thousands. So i guess the Barrier would have to be enourmous, requiring a equaly big energy source. And if you later run out of space... build another one. Can't be that hard if we managed to get it up and ruining with a single human. ah, well, it was just a sidethought anyway.

[CorrettoSambuca]

Allow me to stray quite far from the path you are walking.
How about a dystopian finale?
Basically at the end of the tech tree is the ultimate automatization gadget, a factory that expands itself. (maybe programmable logistics bots?)
So the factory basically starts doing everything by itself, and you don't need to do anything, but eventually the factory itself realizes that you are nothing but a waste of resources at this point, and kills you. THE END
(or you escape and build a new faactory to ward from the swarms of robots your old factory throws at you... and the cycle repeats)

[Robbedem]

Allow me to stray qquite far from the path you are walking.
How about a dystopian finale?
Basically at the end of the tech tree is the ultimate automatization gadget, a factory that expands itself. (maybe programmable logistics bots?)
So the factory basically starts doing everything by itself, and you don't need to do anything, but eventually the factory itself realizes that you are nothing but a waste of resources at this point, and kills you. THE END
(or you escape and build a new faactory to ward from the swarms of robots your old factory throws at you... and the cycle repeats)

Not sure if this would encourage people to play the game for a second time.

I like your idea of the ultimate automated factory as an endgoal though. However, I feel their are a few "pre-endgoals":
1: energy production: fusion reactor (needed to have the power for the next goals)
2: military power: long range powerfull artillery (to kill large biter bases and/or their next evolution?)
3: intelligence: satellites (scanning device that is much faster with a much larger FOV than the radar that would work very well with your artillery)

These 3 would than lead to the ultimate endgoal:
4: ultimate automatisation (game ends with a short video of a large automated city being build and colony ships arriving? followed by lots of statistics )

[ssilk]

Does somebody know the second season of Lexx?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexx

That's an epic end!