end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Circuit-free solutions of basic factory-design to achieve optimal item-throughput.
Involving: Belts (balancers, crossings), Inserters, Chests, Furnaces, Assembling Devices ...
Optimized production chains. Compact design.
Please provide blueprints!
Forum rules
Circuit-free solutions of basic factory-design to achieve optimal item-throughput
Post Reply
vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:09 pm

Below is a design for productivity + speed beacons based smelting, which outputs a blue belt of iron/copper plates using 13 smelters*

Image
blueprint
Output:
At crafting speed 1, a smelter with 20% productivity should produce x = (1 / 3.5) * 1.2 * 60 = 20.57 plates per minute.
Current setup has 11 at speed 9.4 and 2 at speed 7.4, giving (11 * 9.4 * x + 2 * 7.4 * x) = 2431.54 plates per minute, which is close to the maximum throughput of a blue belt at 2410. As far as I can see the is no real bottleneck. I'm not quite sure the balancer at the top is needed, but it might help to balance out temporary imbalances. I'm also not sure the bottom splitter is needed, but it divides the output over both lanes so each lane has 6.5 smelters.
Last edited by vanatteveldt on Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: end-game smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:30 am

For steel, I use the following setup:

Image

Double productivity means (5 / 1.44 =) 3.5 iron ore to a steel. Since the iron smelter is more productive, less iron smelters are needed per steel smelter.
Of course, I could just output iron plates to a row of steel furnaces, but I prefer keeping them together so it's easy to control (I switch off power to a block if buffers are full) and can be expanded as needed without affecting iron plate capacity.

So, I decided to use fewer beacons for the iron smelters, 6 beacons per iron and 8 beacons per steel smelter gives a small (5%) loss in steel output, but iron will be buffered if there is too much steel, so it won't affect production unless it's running full-time. Adding another beacon to the iron production gives a 7% overproduction of iron.

The current setup is designed to be as long as the iron/copper smelters so it's easy to tile and share beacons. It uses almost exactly a red belt of iron ore (26.3/s), and produces just over a lane of yellow belt of steel (7.5/s)
blueprint
(note: just noticed one of the beacons misses the modules, this is corrected in the blueprint string.

This setup can be tiled by mirrorring, producing 15 steel/s from 52 ore/s. If you remove three smelters from all columns you consume exactly one blue belt of ore and produce almost a full yellow belt of steel:
mirrored and shortened
And finally a longer version that consumes 2 blue belts of ore and outputs almost a full red belt of steel (23/s):
longer

socket
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:39 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by socket » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:07 pm

vanatteveldt wrote:Below is a design for productivity + speed beacons based smelting, which outputs a blue belt of iron/copper plates using 13 smelters*
image
Hi vanatteveldt, I think your first setup has a problem: the bottom 6 furnaces all have output on the left side of the final belt and the other 7 furnaces have output on the other side.
The splitter for the bottom furnace doesn't matter as the whole bottom half of the output gets side-loaded onto the left side of the belt.
This limits production as 5 furnaces at 9.4 and 1 at 7.4 produce only about 18.65 plates per second (one side of a blue belt can carry 20 items per second).
As a result, the top half of furnaces should back up faster than expected while the left side of the output belt should have empty space.
Rebalancing doesn't fix it as before rebalancing the belt is already not full.

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:33 am

Thanks for the comments! I'll have a better look at the splitting, you're right that the bottom splitter doesn't solve the problem.

Edit: let me add a link to your design from the 'clever builds' thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6008&start=420#p225683

Edit2: I had a look in creative mode, I don't see any gaps in the output belt. It outputs just under 2.4k/m, the 5s statistic seems to oscillate between 200 and 199 plates, with 200/5s being the maximum output of a blue belt. So I think it is producing at very close to maximum blue belt output.

You're right of course that the first splitter has no effect in the current setup, and indeed one of the top-7 smelters is getting backed up (no 9 seems to freeze for 10-20% of the time).

It's a while ago since I made the setup, but the reason I think it is working is that the last two smelters actually output on a separate belt which is joined at the balancer. Without the balancer, output drops to around 193/5s or 2.3/m. The theoretical maximum output of the whole setup is (2*7.4 + 11*9.4)*1.2 / 3.5 = 40.5 plates/s, so it makes sense that one of the smelters is running at <100%. Maybe a better inserter setup and/or inserting into underground belts would work without the balancer, but as far as I can see this setup is almost "perfect" in the sense that it has maximal output with minimal amount of beacons.

I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.

socket
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:39 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by socket » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:39 pm

vanatteveldt wrote:
Edit2: I had a look in creative mode, I don't see any gaps in the output belt. It outputs just under 2.4k/m, the 5s statistic seems to oscillate between 200 and 199 plates, with 200/5s being the maximum output of a blue belt. So I think it is producing at very close to maximum blue belt output.

You're right of course that the first splitter has no effect in the current setup, and indeed one of the top-7 smelters is getting backed up (no 9 seems to freeze for 10-20% of the time).

It's a while ago since I made the setup, but the reason I think it is working is that the last two smelters actually output on a separate belt which is joined at the balancer. Without the balancer, output drops to around 193/5s or 2.3/m. The theoretical maximum output of the whole setup is (2*7.4 + 11*9.4)*1.2 / 3.5 = 40.5 plates/s, so it makes sense that one of the smelters is running at <100%. Maybe a better inserter setup and/or inserting into underground belts would work without the balancer, but as far as I can see this setup is almost "perfect" in the sense that it has maximal output with minimal amount of beacons.
You are right, the rebalancer fixes the problem! Sorry, I should have tested it first before commenting. I had similar issues but I didn't try rebalancing as it made designs slightly larger.

vanatteveldt wrote: I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
The technique I like to use is to have two half-full output belts and merge them at the end instead of merging with a single output belt. Maybe it can be used here. I have fixed my design you've linked by the way, edited my post there.

I'm not sure the rebalancer can be removed though. At some point some balancing is required because number of furnaces is odd.

nr2117
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:24 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by nr2117 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:06 pm

hi, noob here.

That code you got there, I can copy and paste that into my game, what happens, how? Does it make a blueprint?

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:23 am

nr2117 wrote:hi, noob here.

That code you got there, I can copy and paste that into my game, what happens, how? Does it make a blueprint?
Welcome :)

You need the blueprint string mod: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/DaveMcW/blueprint-string

User avatar
hansinator
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:42 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by hansinator » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:59 pm

vanatteveldt wrote: I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
Why wouldn't you want to output to underground belts? It would make it cheaper since all those splitters cost advanced cirucits.

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:04 am

hansinator wrote:
vanatteveldt wrote: I have no idea how to increase output from ~2390/m to 2400 without outputting to an underground belt, I've tried a couple of things but it always blocks somewhere else.
Why wouldn't you want to output to underground belts? It would make it cheaper since all those splitters cost advanced cirucits.
Somehow it feels like an exploit, but maybe that's just me being silly. And to be honest I've never really tried, so I don't know exactly how to set that up :)

User avatar
hansinator
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:42 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by hansinator » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:07 pm

vanatteveldt wrote: Somehow it feels like an exploit, but maybe that's just me being silly. And to be honest I've never really tried, so I don't know exactly how to set that up :)
I know what you mean, but it is so convenient. As soon as inserters output onto a nearly compressed underground belt exit/entrance from the side they exploit that, like in socket's design. Lot's of things wouldn't be possible without and I think it is not that bad.

From my test map:
Image
The combinator makes the belt nearly compressed, so there is a 1-tick gap every 9 ticks. Then the nice underground belts get a request from the inserters to stop the belts just long enough so they can output their items into them. How nice of them! ;-) Do you notice the stuttering on the input side when the inserters drop their stuff? That's how it works. Interestingly you can see some copper plates flicker on the upper underground belt entrance in the first few frames of the gif. Never seen that in-game though, must have to do with the gif recorder. But it explains whats happening technically: The underground belts just remove the items in front of them when it's time. In fact they are teleporters. The tiny 1-tick gaps in the input mean that there is no plate immediately following so for a very brief period of time an item-sized free slot appears on the belt.

pieppiep
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:52 am
Contact:

Re: end-game smelting (non-smart)

Post by pieppiep » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:05 pm

vanatteveldt wrote:
mirrored and shortened
This is 11+11+5+11+11 beacons.
If you switch the 2 parts, iron on the outside and steel on the inside, you need 5+11+11+11+5 beacons, saving 6 beacons.

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:52 pm

That makes perfect sense, good idea :)

Jesus8000
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:13 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by Jesus8000 » Thu May 04, 2017 6:45 pm

why endgame with red belts =?
and i cant add these blueprints with v15.x ????
edit: i red, that cant import blueprints from 14.x to 15.x :(
can u repost it in version 15.x?
sorry, my english is not the yellow from the egg.... 4give me

axelsword
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:11 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by axelsword » Sat May 13, 2017 2:33 am

Steel, iron, copper, but don't forget brick ! It's important because it's used to produce purple science.

User avatar
Phantom329
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by Phantom329 » Sun May 14, 2017 5:43 am

I got a 2.4k/m setup that uses less splitters. Same amount of smelters and beacons though. Looks like about 32.4MW. You can actually remove one of the speed modules in one of the top beacons and it will still maintain 2.4k/m and the top smelter will build up slower. (second image)
Images
BP String

iceman_1212
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:49 am
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by iceman_1212 » Thu May 18, 2017 7:32 am

Here's one which uses no splitters but more underground belt and a few more inserters. I thought the lack of splitters and limited visible belt might make it just a tad more UPS friendly (esp the splitters) which could add up across large smelting volumes. It does cost more iron but by the time these beaconed systems are put into play, it's a rounding error.

Image

Image
Blueprint String

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: end-game iron/copper and steel smelting (non-smart)

Post by vanatteveldt » Thu May 18, 2017 7:50 am

Yeah when I built those designs I didn't know about using UG belts for compression, so these are much nicer and simpler, thanks!

Post Reply

Return to “Mechanical Throughput Magic (circuit-free)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users